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Post by jphillips on May 9, 2009 16:30:47 GMT -5
... been allowed to return to the faith?
Or is that 'Kiss of Death' a permanent branding?
Or generally are the excommunicated's wounds to deep to reconcile their differences to return to the faith?
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Post by déjà vu on May 9, 2009 16:42:23 GMT -5
I know of a some who have been invited to return. but none that I know have returned.
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Post by CherieKropp on May 9, 2009 18:53:31 GMT -5
I heard that Mary Starkweather (age 87?) was invited to return recently. (sister of John S).
I believe some (many?) who were "stood down" or "put out" in the Victorian Aust Split were eventually allowed to return without re-professing...
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Post by juliette on May 9, 2009 21:18:03 GMT -5
I heard that Mary Starkweather (age 87?) was invited to return recently. (sister of John S). I believe some (many?) who were "stood down" or "put out" in the Victorian Aust Split were eventually allowed to return without re-professing... Cherie: Do you know why she was exed? Was it because her brother preached the divinity of Jesus? I have a friend who has visited John S. It's pretty sad to see an old man let go of his job after years of service like that. I think when my friend spoke with him, he was working as a janitor in a school. Juli
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Post by emy on May 9, 2009 23:07:48 GMT -5
I recently heard that Mary S has professed again, and John is attending gospel meetings.
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Post by l on May 9, 2009 23:51:49 GMT -5
I wouldn't want to go back F.T I won't suck hold for anything or run after anyone
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Joe Lynn
Senior Member
joerlynn@msn.com
Posts: 257
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Post by Joe Lynn on May 10, 2009 12:56:37 GMT -5
Cherie, Any information about Mary S. She was in the work with my Mom and stayed at our house many many times as I was growing up. I had not heard about her? Thanks for any info.
Joe
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Post by CherieKropp on May 10, 2009 13:15:24 GMT -5
Sorry - I dont know any other info about the Starkweathers...
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Post by jphillips on May 10, 2009 16:04:37 GMT -5
Cherie: Do you know why she was exed? Was it because her brother preached the divinity of Jesus? I have a friend who has visited John S. It's pretty sad to see an old man let go of his job after years of service like that. I think when my friend spoke with him, he was working as a janitor in a school. Juli Does the faith just cut such a Worker loose pertaining to discrepancies in doctrine issues? Or do they generally give the Worker the option to conform to the Truth's general preachings?
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Post by Gene on May 10, 2009 16:30:31 GMT -5
Cherie: Do you know why she was exed? Was it because her brother preached the divinity of Jesus? I have a friend who has visited John S. It's pretty sad to see an old man let go of his job after years of service like that. I think when my friend spoke with him, he was working as a janitor in a school. Juli Does the faith just cut such a Worker loose pertaining to discrepancies in doctrine issues? Or do they generally give the Worker the option to conform to the Truth's general preachings? In the JS case, they gave him the option to comply. And he actually did for some years, but then as time went by, he could no longer stifle what he felt to be truth -- and so he fell out of favor again. If he had renounced what others felt to be his 'wrong doctrine' he may have been allowed to keep his place. But, IMO, standing for what he believed to be truth was more important to him than keeping a place among... well... the workers. And for that reason among others, I have the highest respect for him.
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Post by CherieKropp on May 11, 2009 6:43:10 GMT -5
Ditto for me, Gene. I have a high regard for JS and for the stand he made.
IMO, standing for what you believe is is "the truth" is more important...no matter what others think, say or do to or about you.
Cherie
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Post by lin on May 11, 2009 7:02:28 GMT -5
Standing up for what you believe is honorable,but others have the right to stand up for what they believe as well. Standing up for what I believe is not begging others to believe the same.
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Post by CherieKropp on May 11, 2009 9:21:52 GMT -5
Standing up for what you believe is honorable,but others have the right to stand up for what they believe as well. Standing up for what I believe is not begging others to believe the same. "...begging"
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Post by juliette on May 11, 2009 10:46:52 GMT -5
What's interesting to me about the JS situation is that other workers have since preached what he was exed for, and are still in the work. One, in fact, is an overseer in the midwest.
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Post by spiderman on May 11, 2009 15:18:38 GMT -5
I know some head workers that thought John was wrong just BECAUSE he stood up for what he believed ................against those who disagreed or more accurately, those who didn't understand what he was talking about. The workers I refer to said, "all I know is if all those head workers thought he was wrong, then I think he's wrong as well." This is what William Lewis said to me. "I've talked to John and to be honest I guess I don't really know what the fuss is all about." I won't name the other two I'm talking about but they are familiar to you all..........world travelers. They called it a "dangerous doctrine".
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Post by jphillips on May 13, 2009 11:37:19 GMT -5
I recently heard that Mary S has professed again, and John is attending gospel meetings. So did Mary depart the Work the same time as John, on the same ship? Did she leave from a position of protest of her brother's exodus? Wondering about John's position of leaving the Truth completely, was he exed from even being one of the denomination's followers or was that his decision?
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Post by Gene on May 13, 2009 15:19:08 GMT -5
I know some head workers that thought John was wrong just BECAUSE he stood up for what he believed ................against those who disagreed or more accurately, those who didn't understand what he was talking about. The workers I refer to said, "all I know is if all those head workers thought he was wrong, then I think he's wrong as well." This is what William Lewis said to me. "I've talked to John and to be honest I guess I don't really know what the fuss is all about." I won't name the other two I'm talking about but they are familiar to you all..........world travelers. They called it a "dangerous doctrine". ~~ Does anyone know/have John S. belief, teaching, or writing on Jesus divinity so we have an idea of what he truly believed and taught.Your best bet would be to take a little trip to Montana and ask John directly. I think you would like him, and he, you.
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Post by pianoman on May 14, 2009 1:16:17 GMT -5
I will answer the questions of both Uk01 and Manfred.
I was not "invited back", I wanted to come back. I felt that I was missing my spiritual life and wanted to return to where I thought I could have spiritual life and joy.
I returned in 2001, and exited again in about 2007.
UK01 asks, did anyone ever receive an apology. I did not receive an apology, in fact the reason I left the last time, and for good, was that the same old rumors and lies were still "on file" in many workers brains, and those that "knew me" (they really didn't) made sure that I wouldn't repeat the same behavior (which was impossible, because it never happened in the first place). The worker that was behind my excommunication is now dead, and many realize he was off beam. 20/20 hindsight?
I also stand for what I believe, and I have found that inside the 2x2 way is not a place for people like me that choose to serve God, and not be affected by outside (worker) pressure.
I want to make clear that I am speaking only of myself, and there are many in the fellowship that I love and admire, and I believe that they have found a way to follow God, and not get caught up with man's thinking.
I could not do that, given my background.........................................Pianoman
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Post by topoftheworld on May 14, 2009 19:31:04 GMT -5
I remember Mary S being in our home when I was growing up, very close to my Mom, I can tell this much, from my brother that is in the work has said..."you're in trouble if you dont fall in line with the senior workers and overseer's, as for Mary S. it was more about defending her brother then what she believed" I have been gone for 34 years and its a good thing, cause If you're wrong, I'll tell you so, guess that would'nt fly anymore!!
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Post by faune on Jan 29, 2015 20:40:05 GMT -5
Does the faith just cut such a Worker loose pertaining to discrepancies in doctrine issues? Or do they generally give the Worker the option to conform to the Truth's general preachings? In the JS case, they gave him the option to comply. And he actually did for some years, but then as time went by, he could no longer stifle what he felt to be truth -- and so he fell out of favor again. If he had renounced what others felt to be his 'wrong doctrine' he may have been allowed to keep his place. But, IMO, standing for what he believed to be truth was more important to him than keeping a place among... well... the workers. And for that reason among others, I have the highest respect for him. From what I can ascertain from this 2009 thread, the worker mentioned here was put out of the work for teaching the doctrine of the Trinity, which some on this board feel is now being taught by some of the workers. However, I would guess, if it was truly being taught in place of the Living Witness Doctrine, they would soon be getting their "Pink Slip" from their overseer, just like Truitt Oyler back in 1989. www.votisalive.com/content/sydney-holt-%E2%80%93-letter-regarding-damage-control-patrol-all-over-north-america-1992
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Post by faune on Jan 29, 2015 22:04:40 GMT -5
I noticed that someone commented on a Facebook board today about an ex-worker who confessed that they didn't walked people down the "Roman road" of salvation in the gospel meetings. Also, they didn't teach the Trinity doctrine, which they considered false teaching. Since both are important to a proper understanding of Christian teaching, I wonder how the workers manage to overlook it completely?
Unfortunately, the Roman's Road is the "real gospel message of salvation" that folks would miss because it is NOT taught by the workers, but substituted with another version that is all centered around the workers as being a person's only source of salvation. As a result, this early teaching of the Living Witness Doctrine, which was added by William Irvine back in 1903/04, continues to be the workers' acceptable version of the gospel message in spite of the basic teachings of Christianity. Also, as you can see by the contents of this thread, workers have been removed from the worker for not preaching "the acceptable version" endorsed by the overseers. To demonstrate what I mean here, I would like to post this apologist's description of the Roman's Road to see if any of the members on this board ever heard this "real gospel message" preached by any of the workers to date?
Speaking for myself, I never did and had no idea what it involved after 30 years of professing. This was just another one of those things I discovered after leaving the 2x2's that I completely missed exposure to within the many gospel meetings I attended over the major part of my lifetime. So, for clarification purposes, here an introduction to the Roman's Road.
Question: "What is the Romans Road to salvation?"
Answer: The Romans Road to salvation is a way of explaining the good news of salvation using verses from the Book of Romans. It is a simple yet powerful method of explaining why we need salvation, how God provided salvation, how we can receive salvation, and what are the results of salvation."
Read more: www.gotquestions.org/Romans-road-salvation.html
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Post by faune on Jan 29, 2015 22:20:45 GMT -5
Below is a copy of what the Roman's Road of salvation which teaches the essential steps to receiving salvation through Jesus.
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Post by faune on Jan 29, 2015 22:34:33 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Well, that's surely NOT something I remember being stressed in the gospel meetings I attended. However, you did sum up what might be expected if these truths were taught. In fact at the end of the meetings they usually ask you if you want to profess and follow Jesus in His only true way of salvation as presented by the workers. However, any mention of the need of confession and repentance in the workers' message seems "left out" of their invitation message along with endorsing of Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
The people who "get this" revelation that the "workers" are their real source of salvation and any other profession of faith they made was based on false hope, usually are then accepted as new members. Then, there is the constant drilling of what is acceptable to the workers to gain God's approval and the need of conformity in dress and personal appearance along with changes within the home and women's hair style (acceptance of buns) to continue to be "approved" by the workers within this Perfect Way. Please correct me if this is not also part of the routine with new converts? Also, I might add, the teaching about the Godhead (Trinity) and the divine nature of Christ is also very much a part of the Christology taught within Christian churches today. So, if both of these teachings are missing in the presented message, perhaps the folks are missing out on the "real gospel message" centered around the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and the meaning of the Cross?
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Post by faune on Jan 29, 2015 23:10:18 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Well, that's surely NOT something I remember being stressed in the gospel meetings I attended. In fact at the end of the meetings they usually ask you if you want to profess and follow in the only true way of salvation as presented by the workers. The people who "get this" revelation that the "workers" are their real source of salvation and any other profession of faith they made was based on false hope, usually are then accepted as new members. Then, there is the constant drilling of what is acceptable to the workers to gain God's approval and the need of conformity in dress and personal appearance along with changes within the home to continue to be "approved" by the workers within this Perfect Way. Please correct me if this is not also part of the routine with new converts? Also, I might add, the teaching about the Godhead (Trinity) and the divine nature of Christ is also very much a part of the Christology taught within Christian churches today. So, if both of these teachings are missing in the presented message, perhaps the folks are missing out on the "real gospel message" centered around the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and the meaning of the Cross? I don't know where you used to live but out in the Pacific North West... they preach Jesus in the gospel meetings, which I preached and heard from other workers also. They preach Jesus in their gospel meetings. They just don't use the words such as The Trinity, Triune God, Jesus is God because they believe it's NOT mention in the Bible. They teach the concept of the Trinity, Triune God, Godhead.... The believe, teach and preach: God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the Sunday morning meetings.Nathan ~ I was raised in the Northeast and moved South in 1981. What I remember most from gospel meetings was the workers picking some parable or story in the Bible and relating it to the 2x2 ministry through spiritualizing about what it meant. I remember the story of John the Baptist and Jesus' baptism as being a favorite of theirs in introducing the 2x2's and their beliefs. It always went back to the homeless 2x2 ministry and the meeting in the home as being the only acceptable Way of salvation. I also heard numerous times that the Trinity doctrine was false teaching and not taught in the Bible.
As far as confession within the Sunday morning meeting, about all the friends express their thanks for the "workers" who brought them the gospel and introduced them to the Truth as found in Jesus, which consists of the homeless ministry and meetings in the home.
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Post by faune on Jan 30, 2015 0:40:47 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Well, I'm happy for you if that's what you can attest to today within the 2x2's. However, during my years within the 2x2's, now 20 years ago, that was not the message I remember, which was imprinted upon my memory numerous times over in gospel meetings. All I can say is it's about time they change their message and do away with the Living Witness Doctrine altogether, which is nothing but heresy, as Edward Cooney himself called it. His own words can be found in Chapter 15 of Cherie's book on TTT. Leading people to believe a lie all these years is not exactly commendable on the behalf of workers who promote this doctrine either. It's not found in scripture either and is against the basic teachings of Christianity.
www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/kerrjoe.php Joe Kerr
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/15wmibook.php Edward Cooney Excommunication
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Post by breakingfree on Jan 30, 2015 1:15:06 GMT -5
Nathan I have told you before that Mark Huddle does NOT believe Jesus is God. Mark warned me to my face about believing that. I know you will cut and paste your notes about what Mark said once back in the 80's but TODAY he does not believe that. Please ask him yourself. Any workers today that openly preach regularly that Jesus is God will be in trouble.
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Post by breakingfree on Jan 30, 2015 1:35:37 GMT -5
Like I said...ask Mark this directly. Let me know what he says.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 30, 2015 21:37:57 GMT -5
JS & Truitt did NOT preach Jesus is God.
They taught that Jesus was divine and therefore, it was impossible for Jesus to sin.
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