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Post by emy on Mar 20, 2015 15:10:24 GMT -5
... Yes, I believe we are called to die to self, overcome, and endure as Jesus did but the new "law" (testament) couldn't go into effect until the testator (Jesus) died. Read more in Hebrews 9, especially from vs 13 on. Emy, agree that we are called to die to self and become "slaves to righteousness" (Romans 6 etc) and keep the faith until the end. However, I can't endure as Jesus did. I am not required to. I can't perfectly do my Father's will as Jesus did. I will continue to sin until the grave. I draw the distinction because the preaching that I heard by the workers over many years was that "I would keep the faith, endure unto the end and overcome like Jesus did..." I simply can't. It's impossible. The Bible speaks of being justified by His blood and being born again of His spirit. My faith and trust in what He has already done for me is the only thing that will enable me to stand clean before the Father. I need to re-state this: Yes, I believe we are called to die to self, overcome, and endure as Jesus did...I should have said, Yes, I believe we are called to die to self as Jesus did (Jesus words: deny yourself), overcome (e.g. Rev. 2 and 3) and endure (again Jesus' words: he that shall endure unto the end... shall be saved.) I would re-state one of your sentences like this: My faith and trust in what He has already done for me is the only thing that what will enable me to stand clean before the Father.
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Post by fred on Mar 20, 2015 17:15:16 GMT -5
Ross' statement speaks of justification, emy. From your editing I get the sense that you feel there is something else we must do, or have achieved. Otherwise Ross' words should stand unedited.
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Post by emy on Mar 20, 2015 18:20:04 GMT -5
Ross' statement speaks of justification, emy. From your editing I get the sense that you feel there is something else we must do, or have achieved. Otherwise Ross' words should stand unedited. Was there something else the churches in Revelation needed to do? How about some of the things Paul wrote to the churches? Jesus himself set a very high standard for Christian living. Will I miss that mark? Certainly, but not by as much as if I don't try.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 20, 2015 19:05:24 GMT -5
I'm a believer and I don't believe that at all! It's barbaric! Even Jesus himself said in John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Even Jesus himself was saying by killing him they are going against Gods law. Even the thief on the cross saw it was wrong to kill Jesus and he was saved, not the thief who was going on about being saved! It was barbaric, cruel and wrong to murder the son of God, there's nothing good or holy in it at all. It's Satan's work at the hands of Satan's people. Jesus overcame by not sinning and showing love right to the end of his life. This is How he put satan to death and won! Paul wrote the significant of Jesus death by Crucifixion on Calvary's Cross.
Romans 6:5-12 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
This is referring to death to self as are the rest of the verses you quoted. E.g. we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. This means, if we are planted together in the likeness of his death, we will be dead to worldly lusts like him, the more we let Jesus in to our hearts, the more we deny sin in ourselves and the stronger we become in God. Then we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. Jesus will be in our hearts and we will be resurrected with him and then be in his likeness because he will be alive in our hearts and we will be living it out. Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Nothing is possible unless we have faith and believe and let the spirit of God enter in. This is my beliefs Nathan and nothing you or anyone else says will ever change them because my heart tells me this is right.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 20, 2015 19:39:04 GMT -5
This is referring to death to self as are the rest of the verses you quoted. Others and myself have repeated many times it was Jesus death on Calvary's Cross which SAVED us and our sins are forgiven..... just like in the Old Testament when the children of Israel sinned against God and He sent poisonous serpents among them and killed many. God commanded Moses to make a brass serpent and put it on a pole and those who had been bitten by the serpent looked up to the brass serpent pole would get healed/saved.
Jesus compared Moses serpent pole to His death on Calvary's Cross for those who believed His death on Calvary's Cross will never die in John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Lifted up means lifted up in our hearts. We can go on and on like this, but there's no point. God will judge my heart. I'm not going to argue with you, you have your beliefs I have mine.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 20, 2015 20:21:58 GMT -5
Lifted up means lifted up in our hearts. We can go on and on like this, but there's no point. God will judge my heart. I'm not going to argue with you, you have your beliefs I have mine. Let us NOT to discuss this topic again with each other because we can't see to agree on it. Let us focus on the topics we agree on for a change. The workers are sign posts, traffic workers, messengers... It's Jesus who saves us. Yes it's not good for us to argue. I was looking at the sunset last night and it was on the horizon. It was huge and orange and warm and I could look directly at it. And I thought it was like God, when his spirit comes down from heaven into our hearts and we can see him face to face and he gives us warmth and love. But when the sun is at its height at noon, we can't look at it because its too strong for us. And I thought that this is also like God, his understanding is so much higher than ours that we wouldn't be able to take all of it. It's too strong for us. he has so much more understanding, wisdom and love than we could ever see in our hearts here in earth. We can't touch the sun, but it can touch us and keep us alive, just like God! We have a wonderful father.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 20, 2015 20:30:27 GMT -5
Ross' statement speaks of justification, emy. From your editing I get the sense that you feel there is something else we must do, or have achieved. Otherwise Ross' words should stand unedited. James wrote that Faith without works is dead. Works always accompany with Salvation. Jesus said let your light so shine before men that they may SEE your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven. True Faith must back up with action not just in words only.
James 2:20-26 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Hooray we agree Jesus also said in revelation 22:12 And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Faith without works is dead. If you have faith in God and love him then the works will follow!
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Post by fred on Mar 20, 2015 22:11:05 GMT -5
Ross' statement speaks of justification, emy. From your editing I get the sense that you feel there is something else we must do, or have achieved. Otherwise Ross' words should stand unedited. Was there something else the churches in Revelation needed to do? How about some of the things Paul wrote to the churches? Jesus himself set a very high standard for Christian living. Will I miss that mark? Certainly, but not by as much as if I don't try. I see the discussion has gone off in a tangent speaking about faith and works. The doctrine of justification is about God declaring us 'not guilty' - it is something he declares about us after we come to true belief. He sees us as clean through the sacrifice of his son, so that when we stand before him it is because of our faith and trust. Compared to this any of our own efforts are merely filthy rags.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 22:35:29 GMT -5
Fred, this dispute and confusion to my mind comes from failing to understand reward, bestowed upon the redeemed by their works, and everlasting life continuing (not beginning) beyond the grave as a result of God's wonderful gift of grace to and upon those willing to believe.
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Post by emy on Mar 20, 2015 22:39:56 GMT -5
I see the discussion has gone off in a tangent speaking about faith and works. The doctrine of justification is about God declaring us 'not guilty' - it is something he declares about us after we come to true belief. He sees us as clean through the sacrifice of his son, so that when we stand before him it is because of our faith and trust. Compared to this any of our own efforts are merely filthy rags. We are saved by the grace of God/Justification.... However, after we are SAVED by Faith then good works will manifest in our lives.And if the good works are not evident...? The messages to the churches in Revelation sure seem like some dire warnings about failing to do the works.
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Post by emy on Mar 20, 2015 22:46:18 GMT -5
Fred, this dispute and confusion to my mind comes from failing to understand reward, bestowed upon the redeemed by their works, and everlasting life continuing (not beginning) beyond the grave as a result of God's wonderful gift of grace to and upon those willing to believe. That seems as if according to reward, there will be 'levels' in heaven. Yet Jesus taught that the first and the last will receive alike. I in no way believe that we make it to heaven solely by our works, but there must be evidence to prove our faith.
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Post by fred on Mar 21, 2015 0:09:22 GMT -5
Fred, this dispute and confusion to my mind comes from failing to understand reward, bestowed upon the redeemed by their works, and everlasting life continuing (not beginning) beyond the grave as a result of God's wonderful gift of grace to and upon those willing to believe. That seems as if according to reward, there will be 'levels' in heaven. Yet Jesus taught that the first and the last will receive alike. I in no way believe that we make it to heaven solely by our works, but there must be evidence to prove our faith. OK then. Perhaps the free gift consists of 50% our own works? I wonder if someone has calculated what amount of works is the pass mark?
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Post by emy on Mar 21, 2015 0:28:05 GMT -5
Works to "pass": Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Forgive or you will not know forgiveness from God. Don't be apathetic (lukewarm) or " I will spew thee out of my mouth."
That's just a start.
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Post by fred on Mar 21, 2015 3:41:48 GMT -5
Works to "pass": Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Forgive or you will not know forgiveness from God. Don't be apathetic (lukewarm) or " I will spew thee out of my mouth." That's just a start. Well I guess you could make a list as long as your arm - the Pharisees did that, and they knew that if you were guilty in just one you were guilty (of all). All their rule keeping and good works could not save them. Under the NT we face the same problem, all our 'righteousness' (good works and rule keeping) will not save us and that's why we need a saviour - because of his work we are able to stand clean before the Lord. That is precisely what Ross has said.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 21, 2015 3:45:32 GMT -5
That seems as if according to reward, there will be 'levels' in heaven. Yet Jesus taught that the first and the last will receive alike. I in no way believe that we make it to heaven solely by our works, but there must be evidence to prove our faith. OK then. Perhaps the free gift consists of 50% our own works? I wonder if someone has calculated what amount of works is the pass mark? If the works were unimportant, Jesus and his apostles wouldn't have mentioned them. And it's nothing to do with our works, it's the Spirit of God working in our heart and changing us from filthy rags to clean ready to be used for his purpose. Our flesh is like filthy rags in the sight of God. You naturally can't use a filthy rag it must be washed first. And God can't use a person with a filthy heart. If we have faith and we let the holy spirit in, he will do the work of cleaning our hearts. And the cleaner the heart becomes the more God can use us. And the brighter his light becomes in us. Just like the proverb 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. The more we let God in, the stronger we become and the works within our hearts will be made manifest because the old man will be replaced be the new man. Which is Christ in the heart, making us a new person. The natural works will then follow, and people will see a change in our lives. As James said Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. But it all begins by having faith letting God in and opening our hearts to him. That seems as if according to reward, there will be 'levels' in heaven. Yet Jesus taught that the first and the last will receive alike. I in no way believe that we make it to heaven solely by our works, but there must be evidence to prove our faith. OK then. Perhaps the free gift consists of 50% our own works? I wonder if someone has calculated what amount of works is the pass mark?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 4:02:04 GMT -5
Let the scriptures and the apostles writings explaining God's plans. If you want your sins to be forgiven then you must accept His terms, will and way. You don't believe in God then His terms don't mean anything to you but for us believers we accept and greatful for our Lord God Savior Jesus who died and shed His own precious blood for our sins. I'm a believer and I don't believe that at all! It's barbaric! Even Jesus himself said in John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Even Jesus himself was saying by killing him they are going against Gods law. Even the thief on the cross saw it was wrong to kill Jesus and he was saved, not the thief who was going on about being saved! It was barbaric, cruel and wrong to murder the son of God, there's nothing good or holy in it at all. It's Satan's work at the hands of Satan's people. Jesus overcame by not sinning and showing love right to the end of his life. This is How he put satan to death and won! However, many folks are of the opinion that satan is still alive and kicking today with all his power intact, yes he was defeated but I am not that sure he was destroyed, he is still awaiting his time to rule in hell according to scriptures.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 21, 2015 4:12:19 GMT -5
I'm a believer and I don't believe that at all! It's barbaric! Even Jesus himself said in John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Even Jesus himself was saying by killing him they are going against Gods law. Even the thief on the cross saw it was wrong to kill Jesus and he was saved, not the thief who was going on about being saved! It was barbaric, cruel and wrong to murder the son of God, there's nothing good or holy in it at all. It's Satan's work at the hands of Satan's people. Jesus overcame by not sinning and showing love right to the end of his life. This is How he put satan to death and won! However, many folks are of the opinion that satan is still alive and kicking today with all his power intact, yes he was defeated but I am not that sure he was destroyed, he is still awaiting his time to rule in hell according to scriptures. Sorry, I meant Jesus putting satan to death by not letting him in his heart. So Satan was dead to him. And if we let Jesus into our hearts he will live and Satan will be cast out. The more we let him in, the more strength we get and the more Satan will be put out. Jesus just didn't let him in at all so he didn't sin, so Satan had no place with him, we are sinners and have let him in. He is certainly alive and kicking in this world
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 4:25:39 GMT -5
However, many folks are of the opinion that satan is still alive and kicking today with all his power intact, yes he was defeated but I am not that sure he was destroyed, he is still awaiting his time to rule in hell according to scriptures. Sorry, I meant Jesus putting satan to death by not letting him in his heart. So Satan was dead to him. And if we let Jesus into our hearts he will live and Satan will be cast out. The more we let him in, the more strength we get and the more Satan will be put out. Jesus just didn't let him in at all so he didn't sin, so Satan had no place with him, we are sinners and have let him in. He is certainly alive and kicking in this world Ok, I understood what you intended to say, but in an effort to stop anyone jumping on you I tried to clarify the position.
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Post by fred on Mar 21, 2015 6:19:23 GMT -5
I think there are two Biblical principles being confused here. Firstly justification is what God declares about us - he sees us as righteous ( in the sense that we are not guilty.) Then we are commanded to become Holy ( sanctification ) - an ongoing work that continues till the day we die. Does this work lead to perfection? no, as we will still be mortal humans. But God has promised to Glorify us. I see this as God's plan of salvation, and it is all his work. Now we know that we have been called unto good works that we may walk therein, and on the judgement day our works will be judged, whether they will stand or be consumed by fire. It seems emy, that there will be a greater reward for some than others. OK then. Perhaps the free gift consists of 50% our own works? I wonder if someone has calculated what amount of works is the pass mark? [/quote]
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 9:07:16 GMT -5
Fred, this dispute and confusion to my mind comes from failing to understand reward, bestowed upon the redeemed by their works, and everlasting life continuing (not beginning) beyond the grave as a result of God's wonderful gift of grace to and upon those willing to believe. That seems as if according to reward, there will be 'levels' in heaven. Yet Jesus taught that the first and the last will receive alike. I in no way believe that we make it to heaven solely by our works, but there must be evidence to prove our faith. "The first being last, the last first" perhaps has an entirely different meaning than you seem to have given to it. If you wonder what I believe regarding that, merely ask, and I will be glad to share. The parable of the gift of talents, indicates for me that reward in that which is to come will not be the same for everyone, yet all those enjoying what is their place in that awareness shall be in harmony and perfectly content. That you feel in any way you must do more than believe to receive the gift promised believers, is simply not part of what I understand from the Holy Spirit's leading and teaching.
But then, I have been judged too wicked to even be in contact with 2&2 ministry believers by those in control of what you have been taught, so according to them, none of you should give the least bit of consideration to what I might express. I recognize this fact, and often am not even allowed to attend funerals of deceased loved ones.
For those who have interest and not heard, Duncan Hunter, and Melvin Behrend have passed from this awareness. I have missed them in life and will miss them in their passing.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 21, 2015 9:36:21 GMT -5
I think there are two Biblical principles being confused here. Firstly justification is what God declares about us - he sees us as righteous ( in the sense that we are not guilty.) Then we are commanded to become Holy ( sanctification ) - an ongoing work that continues till the day we die. Does this work lead to perfection? no, as we will still be mortal humans. But God has promised to Glorify us. I see this as God's plan of salvation, and it is all his work. Now we know that we have been called unto good works that we may walk therein, and on the judgement day our works will be judged, whether they will stand or be consumed by fire. It seems emy, that there will be a greater reward for some than others. OK then. Perhaps the free gift consists of 50% our own works? I wonder if someone has calculated what amount of works is the pass mark? [/quote] I'm not confused at all! I meant what I said, we are not righteous at all, we are sinful. God sent Jesus in the likeness of sinful flesh so he could condemn sin in the flesh. That is putting sin to death in his mortal body. Death to self. He never gave Satan and chance to get in! The only righteousness we have is if we walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. God will see our sins they won't be hidden. The only way they are hidden are if you turn away from the lusts of this world. Jesus said to the woman who was to be stoned, your sins are forgiven go sin no more! We can't say we believe and then live our lives in the world thinking is ok Jesus died for me so God won't see my sins just righteousness! God sees every sin we do and we are held more accountable once we say we believe in him then live our own lives! Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 10:38:51 GMT -5
To answer your question jphillips
I wasn't excommunicated but isolated and when I stopped going to meetings well I guess they must have felt relieved,I have never encountered anyone professing since then , hurt a lot , but it is ok now I am better off on my own even tho there is a big void in me sometimes ,must come from being left behind like a dirty rat, It is ok now am a grown man .I must add tho that I have met great people where ever I went , kind , open and gentle people .
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Post by faune on Mar 21, 2015 11:22:57 GMT -5
Cherie ~ Thanks. That sounds more like it to me, too. Also, their concept of Jesus as our "Elder Brother," always gave me the impression they viewed Jesus more as a human being who somehow obtained to divinity at the end of his life due to the perfect life he lived without sinning. However, I never heard the Trinity or Godhead described as one God in three distinct persons ~ Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or Jesus referred to as "God in the flesh" or "God, the Son." The Trinity was always presented as "false teaching" by them from 1965 up until I left in 1995, some 30 years later. If that has changed any, I would be surprised myself? No doubt any worker who taught the Trinity as the Godhead would be swiftly chided by their overseer for even teaching such doctrine in gospel meeting and probably removed if they continued, since it doesn't go along with their acceptable Living Witness Doctrine, which put the workers at the center of your only hope of salvation?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203%3A8-10%3B%201%20Corinthians%2011%3A3&version=AMP;NIV;KJV 1 John 3:8-10 & 1 Corinthians 11:3
Well Jesus didn't think like that, he called his deciples brethren and they were human! Matthew 28:10 Then Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. Maryhig ~ I believe "brethren" is just another name for disciples or followers, as used here? However, what about what Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection had taken place ~ "My Lord and My God," in John 20:28. Also, Peter expressed the same recognition of Jesus before the resurrection in Matthew 16:16, both shown below. How do you explain those two examples, as well as others within the gospels where the Pharisees felt he needed to be stoned in John 8:58 when Jesus said that He existed before Abraham. The Pharisees wanted to stone him for claiming to be "I AM," which they knew was a title for God only? Also, what about the Roman centurion who confessed after they crucified Jesus, "Surely this man was the Son of God" in Mark 15:37-39? Also, why not check out Josh McDowell's article on where Jesus made references to where Jesus claimed to be God found within the gospels?
“And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God” (Mark 15:37-39). biblehub.com/john/20-28.htm
biblehub.com/matthew/16-16.htm
www.josh.org/resources/study-research/answers-to-skeptics-questions/did-jesus-claim-to-be-god/
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Post by emy on Mar 21, 2015 13:23:25 GMT -5
Works to "pass": Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Forgive or you will not know forgiveness from God. Don't be apathetic (lukewarm) or " I will spew thee out of my mouth." That's just a start. Well I guess you could make a list as long as your arm - the Pharisees did that, and they knew that if you were guilty in just one you were guilty (of all). All their rule keeping and good works could not save them. Under the NT we face the same problem, all our 'righteousness' (good works and rule keeping) will not save us and that's why we need a saviour - because of his work we are able to stand clean before the Lord. That is precisely what Ross has said. The ones I mentioned, if not present, would keep you from God and heaven. There are no doubt others if you keep looking. Rev. 21:7-8 would be one starting place. The gospels, too!
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Post by emy on Mar 21, 2015 13:46:57 GMT -5
"The first being last, the last first" perhaps has an entirely different meaning than you seem to have given to it. If you wonder what I believe regarding that, merely ask, and I will be glad to share. The parable of the gift of talents, indicates for me that reward in that which is to come will not be the same for everyone, yet all those enjoying what is their place in that awareness shall be in harmony and perfectly content. That you feel in any way you must do more than believe to receive the gift promised believers, is simply not part of what I understand from the Holy Spirit's leading and teaching.
But then, I have been judged too wicked to even be in contact with 2&2 ministry believers by those in control of what you have been taught, so according to them, none of you should give the least bit of consideration to what I might express. I recognize this fact, and often am not even allowed to attend funerals of deceased loved ones.
For those who have interest and not heard, Duncan Hunter, and Melvin Behrend have passed from this awareness. I have missed them in life and will miss them in their passing. Thanks for the news of Duncan and Mel. Duncan and Irene were good friends of my sister and husband and Mel i s a friend of a dear friend of mine. We had dinner at his home once when his wife was still alive. I'd be interested in hearing your interpretation of first and last. I have read over references and don't see the error of how I understood it. I completely believe in Jesus' blood for justification (reconciliation) but what about sanctification? My research shows that comes through obedience to His will and word and through the Holy Spirit.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 21, 2015 14:02:01 GMT -5
Well Jesus didn't think like that, he called his deciples brethren and they were human! Matthew 28:10 Then Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. Maryhig ~ I believe "brethren" is just another name for disciples or followers, as used here? However, what about what Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection had taken place ~ "My Lord and My God," in John 20:28. Also, Peter expressed the same recognition of Jesus before the resurrection in Matthew 16:16, both shown below. How do you explain those two examples, as well as others within the gospels where the Pharisees felt he needed to be stoned in John 8:58 when Jesus said that He existed before Abraham. The Pharisees wanted to stone him for claiming to be "I AM," which they knew was a title for God only? Also, what about the Roman centurion who confessed after they crucified Jesus, "Surely this man was the Son of God" in Mark 15:37-39? Also, why not check out Josh McDowell's article on where Jesus made references to where Jesus claimed to be God found within the gospels?
“And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God” (Mark 15:37-39). biblehub.com/john/20-28.htm
biblehub.com/matthew/16-16.htm
www.josh.org/resources/study-research/answers-to-skeptics-questions/did-jesus-claim-to-be-god/
Hi Faune We all have our beliefs, I believe there is God Almighty, and Jesus is his son the Christ. I believe when he came to earth the Spirit of God was in his heart and and he never lived to please himself but to please God. He came to show the love mercy and forgiveness of God and to show us how to live. he never sinned and denied Satan in his life not giving him a chance to enter his heart. When John said my lord my God he saw God through Jesus but he isn't God! And what Peter said is that he is the son of God. He has always been with God from the beginning but he isn't God. There are so many scriptures saying this. If he was God, he wouldn't have to go to God, or pray to him, or ask him for strength but he does! John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. The following are verses from the same prayer where he says he's one with God and also saying he wants his deciples at one with them. And all that who are brought in in the future, so that all are one its not that he is God he is at one with God in heart and mind! And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Jesus isn't God, he's God's son, the begotten of the father he is our holy lord the Christ who came in sinful flesh but never sinned and suffered and took every sin man threw at him and showed love and mercy and hope even through the death on the cross still showing love, asking or father to forgive them. He was the perfect example for us to follow as far as we are willing to go. With him in our hearts he gives us the strength to fight Satan and then show love and mercy to others because his life changes our hearts replacing hardness with love, and selfishness with compassion so we love God with all our hearts and care for all people we see in need. Without God he could do nothing and without him we can do nothing because we can only go to God through him. And I am grateful to God for even looking at me and giving me a chance to know him.
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Post by faune on Mar 21, 2015 14:09:46 GMT -5
Maryhig ~ Thanks for your response to my post with your beliefs. I wonder if you read Josh McDowell's article that I quoted earlier? Here's the part that I find most interesting to note within the Introduction. Because he was an atheist and skeptic for many years before he became a Christian, I feel this is worth noticing. www.josh.org/resources/study-research/answers-to-skeptics-questions/did-jesus-claim-to-be-god/ Did Jesus Claim to Be God? Even if He did Make the Claim, Why Should I Believe it?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 21, 2015 15:47:37 GMT -5
Maryhig ~ Thanks for your response to my post with your beliefs. I wonder if you read Josh McDowell's article that I quoted earlier? Here's the part that I find most interesting to note within the Introduction. Because he was an atheist and skeptic for many years before he became a Christian, I feel this is worth noticing. www.josh.org/resources/study-research/answers-to-skeptics-questions/did-jesus-claim-to-be-god/ Did Jesus Claim to Be God? Even if He did Make the Claim, Why Should I Believe it?
Thank you Faune I will look when I get home, I'm not being ignorant. I'm in my brothers at the moment. I will let you know when I've read it :-)
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