terry
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Posts: 328
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Post by terry on Apr 20, 2009 19:36:46 GMT -5
Hmm, well Terry will need to help clarify this. I hope it is as you see it Sharon. I thought I'd made it apparent, the families that asked me to be a pall bearer were NOT professing. I was asked because they knew how much Ithier parent had thought of me because of who I was and what i'd done for them. And I'd like to be clear, I'm not seeking praise for what I did, it's that what I did was recognized by those who weren't blinded by the legalize of the 2x2's. Perhaps if you'd read my post, and I quote, " I'm sure it irritated the workers that after I'd remarried and had been ex'd the families of three of those good people (all thier children were non-professing) asked me to be a pall bearer at thier funerals. " you would have realized that they really didn't care what my religion was--they appreciated what I'd done for thier parents. And again, I'm not extolling my virutes, but it's really a prime example of the 2x2 culture.
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Post by JO on Apr 20, 2009 19:53:58 GMT -5
The people in the Old Testament cried out for "flesh" and God rained it down on them. So those who cry out for a new mate when the first one is still alive, they may get their request, but it will come with consequences that will be so unpleasant they will wish they had never made their request. I have yet to see anyone happy on their death bed who has made that choice to remarry with a living spouse. Their live becomes one twisted fate -- oh yes, in the beginning before the consequences are reaped, they think all is well and jolly, but down the road there is a horrible horrible disaster .... Good theory, it will make you feel justified in your condemnation to see it that way. Do you pray "Lord I'm thankful I'm not as other men are - like these D&R folk who are committing adultery every day". I suppose the publican who went up to the temple to pray had regrets too, but he went away from the temple justified. I suspect much of the regret D&R folks have is that they've been treated like leppers by F&W. Do you think Leslie White, Lyle Schober and other eastern overseers are false prophets for allowing D&R folks to participate in meetings?
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Post by déjà vu on Apr 20, 2009 21:57:33 GMT -5
Dear friends, again, how does Leslie white feel about this matter? interesting how no one is answering this question... Leslie White has been influential in a few states but western overseers reject his views on D&R. Some have referred to him as a "false prophet". I didn't know that Leslie was a Prophet , did he ever prophesy something that did not come through.?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:07:07 GMT -5
Leslie White has been influential in a few states but western overseers reject his views on D&R. Some have referred to him as a "false prophet". I didn't know that Leslie was a Prophet , did he ever prophesy something that did not come through.? prophet definition: "someone who speaks by divine inspiration; someone who is an interpreter of the will of God". I suppose that would qualify most people taking part in meetings as prophets.
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Post by hippyatheart on Apr 20, 2009 22:13:50 GMT -5
Wow, Scarlett, thank U muchly for sharing this inspiring piece. There is nothing quite like unconditional love...to nurture a person to be all they can be. And no matter what earthly human relationships we have, we can know the assurance of The Lord's unconditional love. It fosters so many wonderful things; it fosters love and good growth and spiritual prosperity. hah You are very welcome, hippy, Speaking of unconditional love: no human can replace or step-in and take the place of God and the relationship He wants to have with us: the MARRIAGE He desires us to experience ultimately is a spiritual marriage (to Christ). I've come to realize that earthly marriage should be one that HONORS our spiritual "marriage".....and that while there are SOME cases of unconditional love between humans, the unconditional love of Our Father cannot be compared with human love....and that with the love of God, one can be nurtured, fed, loved, comforted, guided, directed, led and encouraged to be the person that God has called, purposed, sanctified, and ordained them to become! In the case of my sister, as I've written about, I sort of view it this way: her first marriage was based primarily on the flesh. The second marriage was based more on unconditional love. It is within the second marriage that she became a much happier person; she changed in a positive way. I've wondered often what came first: the unconditional love she received in the second marriage or did she change inwardly before she was in the second marriage and then blossomed and developed into the much happier and peaceful person withIN the second marriage? But: another way too look upon it is this: (analogy) We are first born of flesh and married to our flesh and that marriage has many limits as well as conditional love. Our second marriage (also viewed as being born again) is likened to being a Bride of Christ and He is the Bridegroom of our soul. It is within this second marriage that deals mainly with being born again IN SPIRIT that we are then able to become ALL that God purposes for us to BE. He is able to live in us and thus His purpose is allowed to be carried out to Its fullest. God wants to set up house and home with us as the Bride of Christ. He wants to live in us...He wants us to BE His Temple. And He has the ability and the power to MAKE IT HAPPEN. After being a widow twice and married a third time and observing many close to me in and out of various earthly marriages, I have to conclude that there are way too many people who rush into marriage or who are not married to the right person: [someone who will nurture them, love them, honor them and cherish them as God would have it.] Part of the reason the divorce rate is so high is because there are many wrong marriages out there....marriages that should have probably never taken place...between people who are marrying for the flesh and not for the spirit. scarlett Thanks for the post, Scarlett and for sharing more of your stance on marriage. I myself am divorced and plan to stay that way. Not because I feel it's wrong to get remarried to the spouse of God's choosing, but because I enjoy being single very much at this point. I have a few fulfilling friendships right now and my relationship with God and my commitment to His Family is such that I'm happy, content and fulfilled. Plus, I feel I am in my chosen "calling" and I have fulfillment when I give of myself whole-hearted-ly. I never walk away from work feeling disappointed or that I should have done more or differently when I give my best and my all and put my whole heart into it. One of my teachers once taught upon embarking on a new skill: "Every effort you put into this, you will get back at least 10 times more." I have found that to be true in life and have not felt disappointed one bit by that kind of living and attitude...although I don't think there is a set number I would use in that multiplication. The jist of it was this: your efforts DO pay off and putting your best into something pays off. And hey, if what you are doing is within God's will, PLUS you give your best, it doesn't get much better than that! So, EARTHLY marriage, although it seems to be an obsession with many humans is not a big deal to me anymore. I might not feel this way if I hadn't gone through a marriage and divorce. But that whole experience taught me a lot about relationships and people and how people treat other people once they tie the knot. It's almost as if some switch gets flipped. At one time, they are on their best behaviour and then it's like all of the sudden, they dont' think they have to be on their best behviour. Indeed, the most successful marriages I know are one's in which the husband and wife MOLD one another into the kind of people that treat one another right. hah
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:32:33 GMT -5
I think that you couldn't sum it up much better HAH!
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Apr 20, 2009 22:32:35 GMT -5
When there is a divorce and remarriage there is always unforgiveness by one or both of the parties. People who do not forgive will not have their sins forgiven. That is essentially why they should not be taking the emblems because they have unforgiveness in their hearts. We are to examine ourselves to see if there is anything separating us from the Lord.
Reconciliation is the goal; remarriage ends that important goal. In fact, remarriage ruins the ability to reconcile. So sad. That is also the essence of the Gospel message that we will be reconciled with our Saviour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:39:36 GMT -5
When there is a divorce and remarriage there is always unforgiveness by one or both of the parties. People who do not forgive will not have their sins forgiven. That is essentially why they should not be taking the emblems because they have unforgiveness in their hearts. We are to examine ourselves to see if there is anything separating us from the Lord. Reconciliation is the goal; remarriage ends that important goal. In fact, remarriage ruins the ability to reconcile. So sad. That is also the essence of the Gospel message that we will be reconciled with our Saviour. I have never been separated or divorced, but I would imagine that people separate and divorce so that they CAN forgive and move on. Otherwise, divorce wouldn't make sense.
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Apr 20, 2009 22:55:02 GMT -5
They divorce because one or both of them have "hard" hearts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:58:57 GMT -5
They divorce because one or both of them have "hard" hearts. That's why God allows divorce and remarriage.
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Post by placid-void on Apr 20, 2009 23:07:44 GMT -5
With all due respect for your wisdom and knowledge, I respectfully disagree with your assertion sojouringthrulife. It is unclear to me the grounds on which you make such an assertion, but may I suggest that there is at least one specific example which does not fit your model. If you choose to assert that this exception proves the rule, I am not privy to the knowlege to which you claim posession and therefore cannot disagree, I only ask that you accept that at least one exception to your rule exists. Thank you.
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Post by buzzybee on Apr 20, 2009 23:59:08 GMT -5
I do not think that LW claims to be a prophet. He is special to just about everybody. Maybe blessed is a better description. He is definately whole hearted and passionate about what he does. I think his passion is what makes him influential. He believes so strongly in what he talks about. Maybe gifted would be another good wood to describe him.
BB
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Post by JO on Apr 21, 2009 0:55:38 GMT -5
When there is a divorce and remarriage there is always unforgiveness by one or both of the parties. People who do not forgive will not have their sins forgiven. That is essentially why they should not be taking the emblems because they have unforgiveness in their hearts. We are to examine ourselves to see if there is anything separating us from the Lord. Reconciliation is the goal; remarriage ends that important goal. In fact, remarriage ruins the ability to reconcile. So sad. That is also the essence of the Gospel message that we will be reconciled with our Saviour. Have you vowed to God that you will never remarry if your spouse leaves you? This is all theory, but thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ we are not judged according to theory. I agree that remarriage ruins the ability to reconcile, yet hardliners expect the impossible of those whose former spouse has remarried. Is reconciliation really the goal? Deuteronomy 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 21, 2009 8:44:11 GMT -5
ALWAYS? Unless you're God, you don't know if there is unforgiveness in the heart of either of the parties...that's just conjecture on your part. So when a divorced ex-spouse remarries--making there be no possibility of the couple ever reconciling--the other one gets penalized because their D&R spouse married and "ended that important goal"? IMO, you have a very hard God--MY God is just and fair and compassionate and forgiving...and and and a host of other wonderful loving attributes. I've noticed that when an interpretation of scripture regarding what God expects/desires of his Children causes God's desires to be viewed as harsh, unjust, unfair--that usually, this is because men have misinterpreted and are misapplying the scripture. When there is a divorce and remarriage there is always unforgiveness by one or both of the parties...Reconciliation is the goal; remarriage ends that important goal. In fact, remarriage ruins the ability to reconcile.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 21, 2009 9:14:42 GMT -5
I do not think that LW claims to be a prophet. He is special to just about everybody. Maybe blessed is a better description. He is definately whole hearted and passionate about what he does. I think his passion is what makes him influential. He believes so strongly in what he talks about. Maybe gifted would be another good wood to describe him. BB This much I know about LW and that is he took his mistakes and learned by them, was humbled by them....it nearly cost him his life all the stress and anxiety of it all....but the man grew up out of that sad experience and is much better man for it! That's what some others seem to be failing in so doing at present, but hopefully they too, can be turned to the love and mercy that Jesus showed while on the earth. Just my hope!
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Post by Sharon on Apr 21, 2009 9:22:41 GMT -5
Matthew 19:7-8 They say unto Jesus, "Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement and to put her away?" He said unto them , "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard; BUT from the BEGINNING it was not so. I say unto you, Whosoever! shall put away his wife, EXCEPT it be for Fornication, and shall marry another, committeth ADULTERY; and whosover marrieth her who is put away does commit ADULTERY.
His disciples say unto Jesus, if the case of the man be so with his wife, it is NOT good to marry.~~~ The disciples of Jesus understood what Jesus had said and they thought it was a hard teaching to obey. They felt it was better not to marry at all. ~~ Remarry while your husbands/wives are alive is committing Adultery. Divorce and remarriage is NOT unforgivenable sin. When the guilty party ask God for forgiveness I believe it will be granted. But don't say and believe adultery is NOT a sin and when people don't confess and admit it's a sin then God can't forgive them. Nathan, it just came to me this morning....that "fornication" is always there "IF" there is another spouse to be had...period...thus the rule of Jesus still applies. "Except for fornication"....did not Paul go on to say that it was best that every man have his own wife to prevent fornication? I think we're straining at a gnat here! It is true that "hardness of hearts" is what brings about divorce, but if that is the case then "fornication, adultery" however one one wants to call it is already a problem...because once a man tastes sex, he isn't likely to want to give it up or at least he'll look upon some woman to desire her....thus adultery, fornication is already committed....so it is better to marry then to burn....those were Paul's words, not mine. However the case of the "adultery" is considered only when the "new" relationship has been consummated or as the rule that goes before the man looks upon this particular woman desiring her....thus adultery or fornication is already committed. BUT the sin of fornication and/or adultery is not unforgiveable.......Most workers that I know about, do not consider it a "continual adultery" for the remarried....they consider that "adultery" was committed whenever the relationship was sexually consummated, but technically it was adultery when they looked upon each other with desire. It still is better to marry then to burn, is it not?
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 21, 2009 11:56:50 GMT -5
The people in the Old Testament cried out for "flesh" and God rained it down on them. So those who cry out for a new mate when the first one is still alive, they may get their request, but it will come with consequences that will be so unpleasant they will wish they had never made their request. I have yet to see anyone happy on their death bed who has made that choice to remarry with a living spouse. Their live becomes one twisted fate -- oh yes, in the beginning before the consequences are reaped, they think all is well and jolly, but down the road there is a horrible horrible disaster .... Amen to that! My brother is a perfect example for this, the church has been against re-marriage and yet, because his unbelieving wife left him, after 8 years they had compassion on him and allowed him to re-marry in the church. A few months into the marriage, the troubles could no longer be hid. But the church Elders would hear nothing of it, since they are Gods servants who could in no way make mistakes, so to hide this grave sin, they warned the new wife to be more obedient. After 3 kids, her obedience was obviously proven, and when she complained of the hell she was going through, they simply shunned her. She told me that they actually hid themselves in the crowd to avoid talking to her. She filed for divorce, but because of the kids, and all the friends in the church, they 'forced' her to not go through with it. I wrote both of them a letter pointing out in detail that living with each other is 'adultery'. She has honored the scripture quotes and understands it the same way, made him move out for a while, but he insisted to come back home, so he lives in the basement without sexual contact. At least, they are not 'living in adultery'. His original wife is still single and comes around sometimes, so I asked my brother if he ever mentions to her that she should become a Christian, to save her soul? He does not want to talk about it. Why? I know why, just think about it, here she is seeking Christ, and what if he convinces her to come to his church (he believes that is the only church leading to heaven) and she gets baptized there, becomes a member in good standing, and then would tell the Elders; "Hey, I want my husband back!" The whole church is terrified of this, so they ignore his first wife like the plague. I really doubt that they would even let her become a member,they would shun her as they do his second wife. They all know that now, it is already evident. What a mess, and they have no idea how to clean it up. Why? Because they are blind leaders of the blind, so they are all in the ditch wallowing in the mire not knowing how to get out. They have realized that the more they struggle, the more mud they get on their already filthy robes. So they simply don't move, not even budge so not to get filthier. I so agree with you 'sojourningthrulife', is living in adultery worth having a new husband or a new wife even if this one seems so much better? (But you and I know, so do those who are remarried) that it is not true, many Christians who have remarried have realized the awful mistake, but are not willing to admit it, since doing so would reveal the obvious that they have been so hard trying to hide; 'the guilt' that they are living in sin. Sure, there are thousands of churches that make them feel welcomed, as I said before, they are there to please everyone, where everyone is welcomed, sin and all. There are thousands of seats, and they have to be filled, I mean, isn't that what Jesus wants? Like the great Joel Olsteen, when he was asked in an interview, since he preaches a prosperity gospel, that if an atheist attended his church, and remained an atheist, would he say he was going to hell or heaven? He said; "Well, I don't know, I am not the one to judge. I just preach the Good News and I let God do the judging." When Larry King asked him that "since the Bible teaches that if anyone does not accept Jesus Christ, they are doomed to hell. What do you say?" He continued to stand on that God is the Judge. So as long as you attend these 'love and prosperity' churches, even an atheist has a chance to get into heaven, without having to believe in Christ. Now you know why his church is one of the the biggest in the world. 'Come with us, we give you a ticket to heaven and you don't even have to repent, but can bring yourself with your sin into it. Joel has this boyish look, with his curly Jewish hair, a constant smile, lifts his head towards the ceiling and blinks his eyes rapidly as he preaches 'love, love, love,' ... even if you are an atheist. Re-maried? Awww heck, as long as your having fun. God wants you to have fun, doesn't He? Want a divorce? We have hundreds of 'Christian Ladies' on our web site just aching to meet you. They will never judge you because you've been married before, heck, most of them there have been married at lest twice already. Throughout the whole service he only mentions one or two quotes from scripture, and most of those are missquoted or out of context. But ending his services he makes everyone lift their Bibles above their heads and repeat after him: (don't quote me on this) "Repeat after me, this is my Bible, I will do what it says, ..." and everyone chants it after him. They leave happy and 'rejuvinated', and eager to come back next week. But so far every church I went to preach a 'man-pleasing-to-the-ears' gospel, including the 2X2's. So close and yet so far.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 21, 2009 12:01:42 GMT -5
what if you're wrong, ari, about what God wants and you're living this miserable existence, refusing to "have fun," condemning anyone who enjoys life, and you get to the end only to get a long lecture from St. Peter before he lets you inside the pearly gates?
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 21, 2009 12:05:50 GMT -5
When there is a divorce and remarriage there is always unforgiveness by one or both of the parties. People who do not forgive will not have their sins forgiven. That is essentially why they should not be taking the emblems because they have unforgiveness in their hearts. We are to examine ourselves to see if there is anything separating us from the Lord. Reconciliation is the goal; remarriage ends that important goal. In fact, remarriage ruins the ability to reconcile. So sad. That is also the essence of the Gospel message that we will be reconciled with our Saviour. Now THAT you couldn't sum it up much better.God Bless You for those stand-up words to the truth dear Christian!
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terry
Senior Member
Posts: 328
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Post by terry on Apr 21, 2009 12:17:45 GMT -5
The people in the Old Testament cried out for "flesh" and God rained it down on them. So those who cry out for a new mate when the first one is still alive, they may get their request, but it will come with consequences that will be so unpleasant they will wish they had never made their request. I have yet to see anyone happy on their death bed who has made that choice to remarry with a living spouse. Their live becomes one twisted fate -- oh yes, in the beginning before the consequences are reaped, they think all is well and jolly, but down the road there is a horrible horrible disaster .... Amen to that! My brother is a perfect example for this, the church has been against re-marriage and yet, because his unbelieving wife left him, after 8 years they had compassion on him and allowed him to re-marry in the church. A few months into the marriage, the troubles could no longer be hid. But the church Elders would hear nothing of it, since they are Gods servants who could in no way make mistakes, so to hide this grave sin, they warned the new wife to be more obedient. After 3 kids, her obedience was obviously proven, and when she complained of the hell she was going through, they simply shunned her. She told me that they actually hid themselves in the crowd to avoid talking to her. She filed for divorce, but because of the kids, and all the friends in the church, they 'forced' her to not go through with it. I wrote both of them a letter pointing out in detail that living with each other is 'adultery'. She has honored the scripture quotes and understands it the same way, made him move out for a while, but he insisted to come back home, so he lives in the basement without sexual contact. At least, they are not 'living in adultery'. His original wife is still single and comes around sometimes, so I asked my brother if he ever mentions to her that she should become a Christian, to save her soul? He does not want to talk about it. Why? I know why, just think about it, here she is seeking Christ, and what if he convinces her to come to his church (he believes that is the only church leading to heaven) and she gets baptized there, becomes a member in good standing, and then would tell the Elders; "Hey, I want my husband back!" The whole church is terrified of this, so they ignore his first wife like the plague. I really doubt that they would even let her become a member,they would shun her as they do his second wife. They all know that now, it is already evident. What a mess, and they have no idea how to clean it up. Why? Because they are blind leaders of the blind, so they are all in the ditch wallowing in the mire not knowing how to get out. They have realized that the more they struggle, the more mud they get on their already filthy robes. So they simply don't move, not even budge so not to get filthier. I so agree with you 'sojourningthrulife', is living in adultery worth having a new husband or a new wife even if this one seems so much better? (But you and I know, so do those who are remarried) that it is not true, many Christians who have remarried have realized the awful mistake, but are not willing to admit it, since doing so would reveal the obvious that they have been so hard trying to hide; 'the guilt' that they are living in sin. Sure, there are thousands of churches that make them feel welcomed, as I said before, they are there to please everyone, where everyone is welcomed, sin and all. There are thousands of seats, and they have to be filled, I mean, isn't that what Jesus wants? Like the great Joel Olsteen, when he was asked in an interview, since he preaches a prosperity gospel, that if an atheist attended his church, and remained an atheist, would he say he was going to hell or heaven? He said; "Well, I don't know, I am not the one to judge. I just preach the Good News and I let God do the judging." When Larry King asked him that "since the Bible teaches that if anyone does not accept Jesus Christ, they are doomed to hell. What do you say?" He continued to stand on that God is the Judge. So as long as you attend these 'love and prosperity' churches, even an atheist has a chance to get into heaven, without having to believe in Christ. Now you know why his church is one of the the biggest in the world. 'Come with us, we give you a ticket to heaven and you don't even have to repent, but can bring yourself with your sin into it. Joel has this boyish look, with his curly Jewish hair, a constant smile, lifts his head towards the ceiling and blinks his eyes rapidly as he preaches 'love, love, love,' ... even if you are an atheist. Re-maried? Awww heck, as long as your having fun. God wants you to have fun, doesn't He? Want a divorce? We have hundreds of 'Christian Ladies' on our web site just aching to meet you. They will never judge you because you've been married before, heck, most of them there have been married at lest twice already. Throughout the whole service he only mentions one or two quotes from scripture, and most of those are missquoted or out of context. But ending his services he makes everyone lift their Bibles above their heads and repeat after him: (don't quote me on this) "Repeat after me, this is my Bible, I will do what it says, ..." and everyone chants it after him. They leave happy and 'rejuvinated', and eager to come back next week. But so far every church I went to preach a 'man-pleasing-to-the-ears' gospel, including the 2X2's. So close and yet so far. I think he showed a great deal of wisdom and humilty which is so lacking in workers. He said God is judge not me. Which of the workers do what to decide whether or not you go to heaven?
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Post by Gene on Apr 21, 2009 12:35:47 GMT -5
Joel Osteen has "curly Jewish hair?"
Did Jesus have curly Jewish hair?
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Post by scarletto on Apr 21, 2009 13:31:56 GMT -5
I would like to ask in the context of this thread---- Has anyone considered that perhaps there are many marriages that are not of God in the first place. If that is the case then the marriage was never a Holy marriage from the get go. What makes for a Holy Union (marriage) in the eyes of God--- In the days of the Torah many had unions not out of love but just for the procreation of child (preference-man child) to keep a name alive. In the days of the Torah many had unions with concubines (perhaps just for the sake of male gratification). Today many get married with a false sense of love (mistaking lust for love)--Bound in failure. Many get married because of expectations or other non-holy reasons. In all these cases can one really say it is a marriage in the eyes of God? So then --- Do you think God may allow for the corrections of these errors? Do you think God may allow for a believer, once released from (say an idol worshiping adulterer) to once again enter a union with a true believer. Example: perhaps a mother with a young child escapes a relationship from a real bad life threatening abuser who is also a devil worshiper--- Do you think God would allow for that women to have a new start with a true Christian partner? My opinion is yes there are many un-marriages which God allows for correction in a new and Holy marriage. -- uKo1, I, too, have long felt that there are many "UNmarriages", wrong unions, or MISmatched couples and I wonder sometimes how they got together and/or how they stay together. I've also seen couples that appear as the perfect couple that in private are far from perfect. What's my point: Only that GOD is the only one with full capability to know what unions are truly of HIM and what unions are NOT of His Doing.....I hearken to the words of Jesus in Mark 10verse9: What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. This particular verse has always seemed as a sort of WARNING to me: in that: don't mess with God's unions. Don't interfere or do anything to put asunder something that GOD has joined. A marriage that is truly OF GOD, unfortunately, is not always the case. There are simply too many people getting married to the wrong person, ie, someone other than God's true match for them. Are these marriages true marriages in the eye's of God? What, is'nt God, God, no matter what? ! Or, is God only God when we want Him to be God? Do we make EXCEPTIONS and say that God is only God in certain cases, but not able to be the Judge of what constitutes a TRUE joining together by Him? My point being....we humans LOVE to make certain exceptions, don't we? I have always felt that Holy Communion, while it takes place in a group setting, boils down to a very private, personal, and sacred examination by an individual WITH the Lord: I do not know what all is inside the soul of my fellow brother or sister. Since we don't EVEN know our own hearts and minds and souls totally the way God does....and yet we have FAITH that God KNOWS and can truly search the heart of people adequately.....communion is a time of self examination: yes. But are we truly capable of examining ourselves fully & rightly? I could be deceived into thinking I am "alright" when really I'm not in the deeper recesses of my heart/soul/mind. But, rather: to ask God to search me and help me really SEE the reality of my heart/mind/soul. Is my heart pure? Maybe I am not living in sin with my BODY, but I have sin in my heart/mind/soul. Do I harbor ANY unforgiveness toward ANYONE, not just a former spouse? But, have I TRULY forgiven all that I need to forgive? It's also very possible that I sin with my body in different ways beside D&R. I don't think I am even capable of knowing the FULL extent of my OWN unforgiveness, or uncleaness, or sinfulness. Thus, I call on the Lord to examine me and to help me examine myself--for He knows me better than I know myself. I ask God for forgiveness of sins I am not even aware of; and because I TRUST Him: I have faith that He loves me enough to help me with my sin. scarlett
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 21, 2009 13:59:05 GMT -5
Siwells: BUT the sin of fornication and/or adultery is not unforgiveable.......Most workers that I know about, do not consider it a "continual adultery" for the remarried....they consider that "adultery" was committed whenever the relationship was sexually consummated, but technically it was adultery when they looked upon each other with desire. It still is better to marry then to burn, is it not?
Amen Nathan,
So Siwells, are you saying that if a married man goes with a prostitute once, he might as well continue going back to her because it is only the first time that God considered it a sin? You know, not to burn, since next weekend comes around and the ‘boys’ or the ‘girls’ want to hit those bars, oh well, I already committed adultery, I already screwed up, so what the hell, might as well continue.
John 8:11 And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." NKJV
Here was a woman that left her way of life, her five husbands and the boyfriend she was living with and ‘followed HIM’. She became a pillar, a good example of what a Christian should be, and she is going to be rewarded greatly for her sacrifice of all that lust and worldly pleasure.
I did read those verses again, nathan. Matt 19:8-10 When Jesus told them they could not just divorce for any reason they thought it would be better not to marry. What an example of human nature! "I can't do what I want, when I want to,so I won't do it at all" Well, all Jesus said was to marry, and that He wished a married couple to stay married. If marital unfaithfulness happened then divorce was made possible by a bill of divorcement and remarriage was permitted.
No siwells, the Apostles did understand what Jesus said and meant, and so did the young Rich Ruler. That is why they said that ‘it is better not to marry’, since they seen that if now they married someone they didn’t like, it became clear that they were ‘stuck’ with them ’As Long As You Live’!
“What?”
They said with a big surprise on their faces. “Hey, let’s ask Him privately, maybe we didn’t understand what he said?”
So: “In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."
Aww.. Lord, so why did Moses, …
Jesus looked at them and said: "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
His disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry."
There are no contradictions here, Nathan is right.
It is same when we come to accept Christ as our Bride, we are not to philander with other religions, or sects, but are to remain in HIS WORD, as HIM being the head, the ‘husband’ and not some misguided Workers or some self-proclaimed prophets, or the god of this world who claims to be ‘Holy Father’ the Pope.
You want to keep too many doors open Siwells, but we all must sit down and count the cost before we jump into anything, that includes becoming a Christian, or getting married.
This is exactly what is going on, in, and with Christianity, if they don’t like something that Jesus said, or required of them (like their dying loyalty just like in marriage), then they simply ‘divorce’ Jesus and ‘rewrite’ the Bible to match to something they ‘could’ accept.
Maybe this ‘new denomination’, will give me pleasure, because abiding by this Bible just doesn’t give me the ‘freedom’ I want. Maybe becoming a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a Seventh Day Adventist, then, yes, then I will be happy. Nope, not them either, so I know, I will become ‘Non-Denominational’!
The Bible is just too ‘blah..’ you know, he’s kind of old fashioned. I want something alive and hip! With a new music group, yes, a band. A nice building where they pamper my kids and shower them with love, love, love, and teach them how Santa is just for fun. I know, I’ll find a man/church where they don’t point out you faults. Yes, with this man/church I will surely be happy.
And you do see many who leave one denomination and switch to another hoping to find that perfect husband/church, JUST LIKE in marriage.
Yes Siwells, “With God all things are possible” just like you pointed out, so staying with your first wife/husband IS possible, especially if you claim you are a Christian. Remember that He said, no matter how bad you screw up, no matter what mistake you made, that “I will be with you even till the end of the world” and “I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you!” So wouldn’t HE more likely help you to ‘stay’ with your first husband/wife, and NOT seek after and live in ‘adultery’? Why would God fix a second marriage and not fix if you go back to the first? Wouldn't that encourage more divorce if He helped the second, or third? What if the fifth worked with an Elder, then everyone would say: "I guess it's best with the fifth marriage." (Just as I hear so many say about the 'third' marriage being the best, lasting the longest).
Siwells: These days marital unfaithfulness can mean different issues. The laws in our country permit divorce and remarriage.
It also permits abortion, kill in self defense, take someone to court even if it’s your fellow Christian, set up idols of Trees in your home and offer gifts under it for a month, celebrate the birth day of a god named Mithra as long as you paste it over with Christ-mass, Christ-tree, Christ-bunny etc.
Everything covered in sheepskin. But my God, can’t Christians see that when you put a sheepskin on a Christmas tree, the ‘trunk’ is showing? Look it up on the internet and you will see the trunk showing big time.
Sin is sin, and the only way out of it is through repentance, not getting more deeper into it. Re-marriage is a sin, the only way to repent is to ‘leave’ that relationship, (to abide by the law, then divorce the new husband. The second, or third was not a marriage in the first place, no matter what the law says.)
What about the kids from the second, third, fourth fifth marriages? What happens to them? How cruel can you be?
If you have a ‘second’ marriage, then you have already committed a cruelty act, if you are on your third marriage then you have ‘two’ previous ‘cruelty’ acts to live with. So no matter how you look at it, the best thing is to stop, go back to the first one if you can, (remember that ‘everything is possible with God’) and ‘MAKE’ it work jst like the ones that ‘make it work’ with the second, or eighth one. I don’t care which marriage anyone is on, it was when they decided that ‘it’s enough, I will make this one work!’ that they stopped divorcing, NOT because now THIS one is that ‘perfect one’.
God bless you all, please no hard feelings, I know it is a difficult subject, but most importantly, Our Heavenly Father Knows it also. And we know that through HIM, all things are possible.
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Post by scarletto on Apr 21, 2009 14:21:01 GMT -5
The people in the Old Testament cried out for "flesh" and God rained it down on them. So those who cry out for a new mate when the first one is still alive, they may get their request, but it will come with consequences that will be so unpleasant they will wish they had never made their request. I have yet to see anyone happy on their death bed who has made that choice to remarry with a living spouse. Their live becomes one twisted fate -- oh yes, in the beginning before the consequences are reaped, they think all is well and jolly, but down the road there is a horrible horrible disaster .... Amen to that! My brother is a perfect example for this, the church has been against re-marriage and yet, because his unbelieving wife left him, after 8 years they had compassion on him and allowed him to re-marry in the church. A few months into the marriage, the troubles could no longer be hid. But the church Elders would hear nothing of it, since they are Gods servants who could in no way make mistakes, so to hide this grave sin, they warned the new wife to be more obedient. After 3 kids, her obedience was obviously proven, and when she complained of the hell she was going through, they simply shunned her. She told me that they actually hid themselves in the crowd to avoid talking to her. She filed for divorce, but because of the kids, and all the friends in the church, they 'forced' her to not go through with it. I wrote both of them a letter pointing out in detail that living with each other is 'adultery'. She has honored the scripture quotes and understands it the same way, made him move out for a while, but he insisted to come back home, so he lives in the basement without sexual contact. At least, they are not 'living in adultery'. His original wife is still single and comes around sometimes, so I asked my brother if he ever mentions to her that she should become a Christian, to save her soul? He does not want to talk about it. Why? I know why, just think about it, here she is seeking Christ, and what if he convinces her to come to his church (he believes that is the only church leading to heaven) and she gets baptized there, becomes a member in good standing, and then would tell the Elders; "Hey, I want my husband back!" The whole church is terrified of this, so they ignore his first wife like the plague. I really doubt that they would even let her become a member,they would shun her as they do his second wife. They all know that now, it is already evident. What a mess, and they have no idea how to clean it up. Why? Because they are blind leaders of the blind, so they are all in the ditch wallowing in the mire not knowing how to get out. They have realized that the more they struggle, the more mud they get on their already filthy robes. So they simply don't move, not even budge so not to get filthier. I so agree with you 'sojourningthrulife', is living in adultery worth having a new husband or a new wife even if this one seems so much better? (But you and I know, so do those who are remarried) that it is not true, many Christians who have remarried have realized the awful mistake, but are not willing to admit it, since doing so would reveal the obvious that they have been so hard trying to hide; 'the guilt' that they are living in sin. Sure, there are thousands of churches that make them feel welcomed, as I said before, they are there to please everyone, where everyone is welcomed, sin and all. There are thousands of seats, and they have to be filled, I mean, isn't that what Jesus wants? Like the great Joel Olsteen, when he was asked in an interview, since he preaches a prosperity gospel, that if an atheist attended his church, and remained an atheist, would he say he was going to hell or heaven? He said; "Well, I don't know, I am not the one to judge. I just preach the Good News and I let God do the judging." When Larry King asked him that "since the Bible teaches that if anyone does not accept Jesus Christ, they are doomed to hell. What do you say?" He continued to stand on that God is the Judge. So as long as you attend these 'love and prosperity' churches, even an atheist has a chance to get into heaven, without having to believe in Christ. Now you know why his church is one of the the biggest in the world. 'Come with us, we give you a ticket to heaven and you don't even have to repent, but can bring yourself with your sin into it. Joel has this boyish look, with his curly Jewish hair, a constant smile, lifts his head towards the ceiling and blinks his eyes rapidly as he preaches 'love, love, love,' ... even if you are an atheist. Re-maried? Awww heck, as long as your having fun. God wants you to have fun, doesn't He? Want a divorce? We have hundreds of 'Christian Ladies' on our web site just aching to meet you. They will never judge you because you've been married before, heck, most of them there have been married at lest twice already. Throughout the whole service he only mentions one or two quotes from scripture, and most of those are missquoted or out of context. But ending his services he makes everyone lift their Bibles above their heads and repeat after him: (don't quote me on this) "Repeat after me, this is my Bible, I will do what it says, ..." and everyone chants it after him. They leave happy and 'rejuvinated', and eager to come back next week. But so far every church I went to preach a 'man-pleasing-to-the-ears' gospel, including the 2X2's. So close and yet so far. I agree with much of what you've posted and what siwells has already pointed out: Aren't we straining at a gnat by adamately drawing a rigid line on the issue of divorce and remarriage constituting adultery (a sin)? I think Satan is having a heyday with all this. If satan can cause division, he will in ANY way he can. If it's the D & R issue, he'll go for it.....and folks play into his hand quite easily enough. The mentality of our enemy is such: "Hey, dudes, and all demons, let's give them something to feel RIGHTEOUS about. Let's convince them that they are above all others on this issue and if they budge they are no longer God's true way." Pretty soon, it seems as though it's all is founded on the line drawn with D & R instead of being founded on Christ and ALL the principles HE taught and promoted and exemplified. For Heavens' sake, it was JESUS who got down on His knees and washed the feet of the disciples. When Peter realized the TRUTH of the matter, he wanted Jesus to wash not only his feet, but his WHOLE body! Do we accept THAT Jesus? Or do we only accept "the Jesus" that we think is acceptable in the human mind of "what's acceptable"?! When I "signed on" to being a true believer and a child of God and given a new birth, I accepted the ENTIRE Jesus, not just part of His teachings and part of His Gospel. I accepted the Whole Thing, kit and kaboodle, the entire package and the real deal....ALL of it. FOCUSING on D&R as an act of adultery is taking the focus off of Christ and placing the focus on another human being: the SINNER; the one who is perceived as living in sin: living in adultery. Isn't that just what satan wants? He wants us to do ANYTHING but keep our focus where it should be. Satan wants us to focus on one another and the sin that others are living in. That way, you see, we don't have to totally deal with ALL the many many many sins that we carry around ourselves. So go ahead and make D & R into a great big issue, meanwhile, you've got a whole cart load of sins that still need to be dealt with that God isn't likely to overlook anytime soon, just because you stuck to one principle. scarlett
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terry
Senior Member
Posts: 328
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Post by terry on Apr 21, 2009 14:23:49 GMT -5
The people in the Old Testament cried out for "flesh" and God rained it down on them. So those who cry out for a new mate when the first one is still alive, they may get their request, but it will come with consequences that will be so unpleasant they will wish they had never made their request. I have yet to see anyone happy on their death bed who has made that choice to remarry with a living spouse. Their live becomes one twisted fate -- oh yes, in the beginning before the consequences are reaped, they think all is well and jolly, but down the road there is a horrible horrible disaster .... Amen to that! My brother is a perfect example for this, the church has been against re-marriage and yet, because his unbelieving wife left him, after 8 years they had compassion on him and allowed him to re-marry in the church. A few months into the marriage, the troubles could no longer be hid. But the church Elders would hear nothing of it, since they are Gods servants who could in no way make mistakes, so to hide this grave sin, they warned the new wife to be more obedient. After 3 kids, her obedience was obviously proven, and when she complained of the hell she was going through, they simply shunned her. She told me that they actually hid themselves in the crowd to avoid talking to her. She filed for divorce, but because of the kids, and all the friends in the church, they 'forced' her to not go through with it. I wrote both of them a letter pointing out in detail that living with each other is 'adultery'. She has honored the scripture quotes and understands it the same way, made him move out for a while, but he insisted to come back home, so he lives in the basement without sexual contact. At least, they are not 'living in adultery'. His original wife is still single and comes around sometimes, so I asked my brother if he ever mentions to her that she should become a Christian, to save her soul? He does not want to talk about it. Why? I know why, just think about it, here she is seeking Christ, and what if he convinces her to come to his church (he believes that is the only church leading to heaven) and she gets baptized there, becomes a member in good standing, and then would tell the Elders; "Hey, I want my husband back!" The whole church is terrified of this, so they ignore his first wife like the plague. I really doubt that they would even let her become a member,they would shun her as they do his second wife. They all know that now, it is already evident. What a mess, and they have no idea how to clean it up. Why? Because they are blind leaders of the blind, so they are all in the ditch wallowing in the mire not knowing how to get out. They have realized that the more they struggle, the more mud they get on their already filthy robes. So they simply don't move, not even budge so not to get filthier. I so agree with you 'sojourningthrulife', is living in adultery worth having a new husband or a new wife even if this one seems so much better? (But you and I know, so do those who are remarried) that it is not true, many Christians who have remarried have realized the awful mistake, but are not willing to admit it, since doing so would reveal the obvious that they have been so hard trying to hide; 'the guilt' that they are living in sin. Sure, there are thousands of churches that make them feel welcomed, as I said before, they are there to please everyone, where everyone is welcomed, sin and all. There are thousands of seats, and they have to be filled, I mean, isn't that what Jesus wants? Like the great Joel Olsteen, when he was asked in an interview, since he preaches a prosperity gospel, that if an atheist attended his church, and remained an atheist, would he say he was going to hell or heaven? He said; "Well, I don't know, I am not the one to judge. I just preach the Good News and I let God do the judging." When Larry King asked him that "since the Bible teaches that if anyone does not accept Jesus Christ, they are doomed to hell. What do you say?" He continued to stand on that God is the Judge. So as long as you attend these 'love and prosperity' churches, even an atheist has a chance to get into heaven, without having to believe in Christ. Now you know why his church is one of the the biggest in the world. 'Come with us, we give you a ticket to heaven and you don't even have to repent, but can bring yourself with your sin into it. Joel has this boyish look, with his curly Jewish hair, a constant smile, lifts his head towards the ceiling and blinks his eyes rapidly as he preaches 'love, love, love,' ... even if you are an atheist. Re-maried? Awww heck, as long as your having fun. God wants you to have fun, doesn't He? Want a divorce? We have hundreds of 'Christian Ladies' on our web site just aching to meet you. They will never judge you because you've been married before, heck, most of them there have been married at lest twice already. Throughout the whole service he only mentions one or two quotes from scripture, and most of those are missquoted or out of context. But ending his services he makes everyone lift their Bibles above their heads and repeat after him: (don't quote me on this) "Repeat after me, this is my Bible, I will do what it says, ..." and everyone chants it after him. They leave happy and 'rejuvinated', and eager to come back next week. But so far every church I went to preach a 'man-pleasing-to-the-ears' gospel, including the 2X2's. So close and yet so far. Your brother and sister-in-law seem to have a lot of issues. One of the worst mistakes they made was going to workers for marital advice. They have no training is such matters and certainly no experience. They also seem to have family members that can't keep thier nose out of thier marriage. My limiting him to marry only in mtgs they certainly lowered his choices and chances of success. I've been remarried for almost 28 years now and our marriage grows stronger and happier daily. Had I not remarried, I'd be facing my last years alone, with only one child, belonging to a church were I was a third rate member.
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 21, 2009 14:25:06 GMT -5
Beautifully put ScarletO, God is God to the unbeliever AND to the believer. Jesus died when we were still sinners, he came to free us from sin. So if you married a Satan worshiping abusive monster while in the world, Jesus came for him/her too, so who am I to leave and break God's command and instruct someone to leave?
When two people marry (in or out of the church) it is a good deed, to avoid sin and is before God. "And what God has joined together, let no man put assunder". He knew and knows everything what IS TO happen, so no matter what, we are to put our trust in God and see the miracles, His power at work, not to think that we could somehow 'start fresh'. Does anyone actualy think that we are to 'get ready' to come before God? That: "well, I have to make some changes to my life, get rid of this husband/wife first and THEN, then I will be ready to become a Christian."
No, we bring everything to HIM and lay at at HIS feet, just as we are, without a plea, ...
amen to that.
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Post by scarletto on Apr 21, 2009 14:35:13 GMT -5
I DO believe that true believers need to take a stand on SIN. And I do see many churches in the world today with an 'anything goes' attitude.
Again, we have the tale of two ditches. One ditch says anything goes and we don't need to WORRY about sin; we don't need to DEAL with our sin...God has forgiven us regardless. This 'ditch' OVERLOOKS true repentence and implies that we don't have to repent.
The other ditch goes way far in the other direction and instead of having faith that God is ABLE to convince sinners of sin, we humans must go about being the "enforcers" on righteousness; to the point that we focus TOO MUCH on a particular sin and a particular "type" sinner...so much so that we overlook our own sin and FAIL to deal with the crud in our OWN inner-most being.
One ditch is a lax attitude of "whatever" and the other ditch is an attitude of self-righteousness.
Let's keep on the narrow path. Amen.
scarlett
What is it truly like to be pure-- deep within a soul? If I could paint a picture of purity, what would that picture be like? Christ. All of Christ, not just part of Christ.
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Post by freespirit on Apr 21, 2009 15:29:27 GMT -5
I DO believe that true believers need to take a stand on SIN. And I do see many churches in the world today with an 'anything goes' attitude. Again, we have the tale of two ditches. One ditch says anything goes and we don't need to WORRY about sin; we don't need to DEAL with our sin...God has forgiven us regardless. This 'ditch' OVERLOOKS true repentence and implies that we don't have to repent. The other ditch goes way far in the other direction and instead of having faith that God is ABLE to convince sinners of sin, we humans must go about being the "enforcers" on righteousness; to the point that we focus TOO MUCH on a particular sin and a particular "type" sinner...so much so that we overlook our own sin and FAIL to deal with the crud in our OWN inner-most being. One ditch is a lax attitude of "whatever" and the other ditch is an attitude of self-righteousness. Let's keep on the narrow path. Amen. scarlett What is it truly like to be pure -- deep within a soul? If I could paint a picture of purity, what would that picture be like? Christ. All of Christ, not just part of Christ. Good post. fs
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