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Post by hippyatheart on Apr 21, 2009 15:54:33 GMT -5
I DO believe that true believers need to take a stand on SIN. And I do see many churches in the world today with an 'anything goes' attitude. Again, we have the tale of two ditches. One ditch says anything goes and we don't need to WORRY about sin; we don't need to DEAL with our sin...God has forgiven us regardless. This 'ditch' OVERLOOKS true repentence and implies that we don't have to repent. The other ditch goes way far in the other direction and instead of having faith that God is ABLE to convince sinners of sin, we humans must go about being the "enforcers" on righteousness; to the point that we focus TOO MUCH on a particular sin and a particular "type" sinner...so much so that we overlook our own sin and FAIL to deal with the crud in our OWN inner-most being. One ditch is a lax attitude of "whatever" and the other ditch is an attitude of self-righteousness. Let's keep on the narrow path. Amen. scarlett What is it truly like to be pure -- deep within a soul? If I could paint a picture of purity, what would that picture be like? Christ. All of Christ, not just part of Christ. Good points, Scarlett. But let us not forget, that sometimes walking that narrow path that Jesus trod means taking a firm stand on certain issues....and.....one may be viewed as being a self-righteous enforcer when all they are doing is remaining true to their convictions. Personally, I feel that DIVORCE in and of itself MINUS the remarriage part has taken and is taking a HUGE toll on quality of life and the moral fabric of society. I know that there are cases in which divorce is the better choice for some couples....ie...such as in cases of ABUSE, but, often, divorce is too easy of an answer when the going gets tough in a marriage and couples are up against dealing with some issues that will inevitably come out during intimacy. When we become TRULY intimate with another person, we bare our soul, and the truth of who we are is open....open to ...what? Open to the fact that the one we are intimate with may tell us they don't like every single thing about us and open to the fact that we are not perfect and as humans we find it very difficult to love one another with an unconditional love. BUT--I still believe the God is asking us to once again: RISE ABOVE.....rise up....lift ourselves and one another above what we would naturally do....live for the spirit and for eternity instead of living for the flesh and for temporal things. Earthly marriage is just that: earthly marriage. It is SO limited. I discovered that the hard way. I believe that if it would have been better to stay married and to work things out & I tried....but it didn't end that way....and he left me and I couldn't stop him from going. My loss,, but both of us lost something. I realized that I could not put my faith and trust in an earthly partnership....my marriage was a temporary partnership, looked upon by man's laws as a viable and legitimate union. In all honesty....I know now that we rushed into marriage and we really did not WAIT for the best partner to come into our lives. I live with that mistake. But, I also feel that God can forgive me of that mistake. Does He want me to repeat it? Of course not. So, I guess, in essence, what I am hearing from you Scarlett is that you feel that sometimes humans like to "play God" and that they want God to be God when it "fits", but they are not totally accepting of ALL that God is....and the fact is that there are issues that we do not know all the answers on. We do not know the extent of God's forgiveness. I believe that the Scribes and Pharisees were trying to trip Jesus up on the D&R issue -trying to MAKE an issue of something Jesus did not originally bring up. I believe we have the same thing happening today: allowing ourselves to get stuck on a certain issue and a certain sin and particular sinners. Meanwhile, God will ensure that the Gospel Message is carried forth, in the midst of the all the dic-kering of D&R...Yes, there are times when we will be called to take a firm stand--but there will also be times when we are asked to let go and let God do the convincing of sin in His own way and in His own timing. God wants to be INTIMATE with us. One way in which He does that is by calling us into fellowship with others. We are called, and asked to bare our souls, to get intimate, vulnerable-- to open ourselves up; and yes, to be honest with ourselves and deal with issues that will be brought out. God Bless hah
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terry
Senior Member
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Post by terry on Apr 21, 2009 16:26:57 GMT -5
One thought that a poster mentioned briefly, and I'm too lazy to go back thru the thread to find, is that the phrase "What God has joined let no man cut assunder" But do we really know if God has joined the two individuals in marriage? There isn't any "blessing" of the marriage by the workers--at least in the Midwest when I was in, which is almost 30 years ago, the workers didn't attend weddings and certainly never gave a blessing on one.
And to support another thought, are we straining at gnats? There have been verses quoted from the OT which support divorce, but those come from the same book that advocates stoning for adultery, forbidding the eating of pork or shell fish--laws which the 2x2 don't follow. Jesus had the exception in his decree against remarriage which was fornication. Then you add in the problem of translation--wasn't the KJV translated from Latin? At any rate the old saying "something got lost in the translation" plus the fact that the meaning of words change over time means we don't really know what Jesus was saying. Paul also taught that women should remain silent--do we literally adhere to that?
Isn't compassion and a realistic look at individual circumstances more important?
Yes, I know I'm speaking as one whose marriage ended thru infidelity and desertion by my spouse, and I will never return to the 2x2 religion and so you may find my view slanted.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2009 16:45:16 GMT -5
Legalist Christians have been trying to rewrite Divorce Law for a little over two thousand years now and wonder why it isn't working even to the point of putting lives in danger, let alone forcing women and children (and some men) to suffer horrendous abuse.
It doesn't help that the information provided in the NT is not nearly sufficient to write a new quality law that would guard the safety and security of the parties.
Then add the fact that the contractual part of marriage 2000 years ago is considerably different than it is now, in fact marriage now hardly resembles what marriage was then. Add to that, the consequences of divorce are also much different than they are now. Then, women were mere chattels while today we have discovered that they are equal to men, equal partners and have equal opportunities (more or less) than men. And they certainly have the right to an equal opportunity to safety and security of their person.
Even an unbeliever knows when and where divorce is flat out wrong and when it is necessary, but legalistic Christians are utterly lost on the subject. They want a rule they can understand regardless of who gets hurt.
Legalistic Christians remind me of the Pharisees who came down on the disciples for gathering food to eat on the sabbath. By being so stuck on legal details, they had lost all sense of conscience and the ability to discern right from wrong and to discern the important from the unimportant. Legalistic Christians would literally try to force a fellow believer to stay in a relationship in which her life is in imminent danger.....I know that from experience. The most dangerous place for a woman for either murder or violence is where? In her own home.......that is proven beyond a doubt. Yet the Legalists have no sense whatsoever that a saving a life is infinitely better than saving a marriage.
God knows when a divorce is wrong, and He is more than willing to indicate to the members of the marriage when it is.....if they have a relationship with Him. And when they make the wrong choice, God deals with it, no doubt about that.
Until the Legalists can write a law that works......they are only making matters worse.
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 21, 2009 16:59:43 GMT -5
What IF? You met someone and enjoyed their company and both being virgins decided that you wanted to get married----But God intended for one of them to marry someone else----So satan tricked the two by making them think in such a way that they ignored Gods direction. What does God do with a false union? You think everything is of God. Well if we have freewill then we can go against Gods will can't we? So how does one repent from going against Gods will in an false marriage? Case in point----When Moses was up on the Mt. Many of the people corrupted themselves and then married up to the false Idol, (the golden calf) They worshiped it---- Moses by the power of God said Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. So many who in their hearts had a false marriage but then turned from it back to God- Those that continued to reject God died in their false marriage. Now you might say this is a stretch in the Marriage question but there are similar examples. My point is that in the flesh we can quickly become corrupted and misled by the devil. It does not matter if it is a new corruption (marriage) or an existing marriage. There are un-marriages not of God and God does allow repentance from them. My opinion I have examined those possibilities also, and learned that God is our God before we knew HIM. He is not stuck in time, but if you read the OT, you will see that even in the oven with Shadrak, Meshack and Obednego, it was the Son of Man, describing Jesus that was in the oven with them. Also in many other places the 'Son of Man' is mentioned. The Lord directs our way, especially those whose names are in the Book of Life, and He goes and helps those not to commit something unrepantable, the only thing that does not change in time or in eternity is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is to say that God is the Devil, or that His works are of the Devil. This is an act of constant denial of Gods Calling. What I'm saying is that The Son has been resurrected before creation of the world, but I will not go into that, only to make you see that He can open this Book of all Creation at any page, (before you were born or just before you die) and act according to the need there. So if at the end of the book your name is written in the Book of Life, He will go back to where you are still an unbeliever, messing around with danger that could well keep you out of the Book of Life and keep you from doing this irreversible harm. God is not the God of believers only, we were all unbelievers to start with. So His care is the same for you BEFORE you become a member as it is after. This is why Jesus said regarding long prayers: Matt 6:8 8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. NKJV John 14:29-30 29 "And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. NKJVWere we believers when we first heard His calling? No. We were still sinners and sinning in this evil world. So no, there is no such thing as a Devil induced marriage, for if the Devil can make you do bad, God would take the same opportunity to make you do the right thing. God is there for all of us, believers or not, it is we who chose right from wrong God will influence us one way and Satan the other. But it is GOD who controls Satan, NOT Satan God or any of His creation. Only what God allows will Satan be able to achieve; Matt 5:45 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. NKJVSatan would never do anything good for anyone, his sole purpose is to destroy the 'likeness of God' and take their souls with him to hell. Knowing this, God controls his every move for all mankind; "... for He so loved the world"
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 21, 2009 17:31:19 GMT -5
I agree with much of what you've posted and what siwells has already pointed out: Aren't we straining at a gnat by adamately drawing a rigid line on the issue of divorce and remarriage constituting adultery (a sin)? I think Satan is having a heyday with all this. If satan can cause division, he will in ANY way he can. If it's the D & R issue, he'll go for it.....and folks play into his hand quite easily enough. The mentality of our enemy is such: "Hey, dudes, and all demons, let's give them something to feel RIGHTEOUS about. Let's convince them that they are above all others on this issue and if they budge they are no longer God's true way." Pretty soon, it seems as though it's all is founded on the line drawn with D & R instead of being founded on Christ and ALL the principles HE taught and promoted and exemplified. For Heavens' sake, it was JESUS who got down on His knees and washed the feet of the disciples. When Peter realized the TRUTH of the matter, he wanted Jesus to wash not only his feet, but his WHOLE body! Do we accept THAT Jesus? Or do we only accept "the Jesus" that we think is acceptable in the human mind of "what's acceptable"?! When I "signed on" to being a true believer and a child of God and given a new birth, I accepted the ENTIRE Jesus, not just part of His teachings and part of His Gospel. I accepted the Whole Thing, kit and kaboodle, the entire package and the real deal....ALL of it.
FOCUSING on D&R as an act of adultery is taking the focus off of Christ and placing the focus on another human being: the SINNER; the one who is perceived as living in sin: living in adultery. Isn't that just what satan wants? He wants us to do ANYTHING but keep our focus where it should be. Satan wants us to focus on one another and the sin that others are living in. That way, you see, we don't have to totally deal with ALL the many many many sins that we carry around ourselves.
So go ahead and make D & R into a great big issue, meanwhile, you've got a whole cart load of sins that still need to be dealt with that God isn't likely to overlook anytime soon, just because you stuck to one principle.
Thank you Scarlett O, This is the post: "Mean treatment of divorced-remarried.." and I believe that it is a good subject, NOT menial or small like a gnat or a mote, but is one of the most misunderstood and painful subjects facing the world today.
No, we address just about every subject here on TMB, that's why I love it.
We have a lot of educated, well learned people in both the Scriptures as well as just about every other philosophy, science to cover all sorts of topics. We cover sin from a-z, eye Gene? We address the subject at hand.
If I know the answer to something from scripture, I will answer it, because I believe that is what we are to do as Christians.
If you think I sound arrogant because God has revealed to me the answers to something you did not know, or even after my explanation, you do not understand, then no matter if I'm clothed in sackcloth and ashes on my head, you will find it offensive. I know how Jesus was on this earth, how He washed the Apostles feet, and so if you want me to wash your feet before you can accept my answer to a particular subject, by all means please let’s make that a possibility. I’ll give you my phone number and e-mail address, set a time and place, call all the people you wish to be present, I’ll even bring the bucket and I will gladly, with great honor do it.
But I want you to know that what I say is what I learned from Scripture and years of listening to many, many other denominations, religions, cults, and compare all that with Gods Word, and with a good intention to make others understand and see what I believe is the truth, I pass it on to whoever wants to hear it. It is food to those that want to learn, it is ammunition to those that war against the lies of Satan, and of course, poison to those that hate the light. So if you find it faulty or that I’m misinterpreting Gods Word, by all means I am listening with both ears to what you have to tell me, I promise I will love you for it. I am so aware of being wrong or that I might say something that is not the true message of Christ.
I do make mistakes, but his in no way to say that I am trying to mislead anyone.
You did not say where I am going astray, only that I seem arrogant and heading toward causing division. I don't know if you noticed that here on TMB there is a lot of different views of God, and some that don't even believe in God, and I did not cause this division, but sure would love to be the instrument to bring it together all in Christ based on HIS WORD.
I pray you can help me to this end, don't be offended, please.
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Post by hippyatheart on Apr 21, 2009 18:07:05 GMT -5
One thought that a poster mentioned briefly, and I'm too lazy to go back thru the thread to find, is that the phrase "What God has joined let no man cut assunder" But do we really know if God has joined the two individuals in marriage? There isn't any "blessing" of the marriage by the workers--at least in the Midwest when I was in, which is almost 30 years ago, the workers didn't attend weddings and certainly never gave a blessing on one. And to support another thought, are we straining at gnats? There have been verses quoted from the OT which support divorce, but those come from the same book that advocates stoning for adultery, forbidding the eating of pork or shell fish--laws which the 2x2 don't follow. Jesus had the exception in his decree against remarriage which was fornication. Then you add in the problem of translation--wasn't the KJV translated from Latin? At any rate the old saying "something got lost in the translation" plus the fact that the meaning of words change over time means we don't really know what Jesus was saying. Paul also taught that women should remain silent--do we literally adhere to that? Isn't compassion and a realistic look at individual circumstances more important? Yes, I know I'm speaking as one whose marriage ended thru infidelity and desertion by my spouse, and I will never return to the 2x2 religion and so you may find my view slanted. Good points, terry. I know that I am not the one to know or decide what God has truly joined together....to do such would be like playing Russian Roulette! So, therefore, I feel it is prudent to take heed to the warning: .... "What God has joined together let not men put asunder". (Matthew 19verse6). I pretty much live on the premise that marriage is marriage-- and when people get married it is intended for a lifetime by God or why bother getting married in the first place? If people are going to get married with a mindset that if things don't work out, they can always get a divorce, then the whole institution of marriage is a FARCE. So, I HAVE to respect that marriage IS something God has joined. That's my stance on marriage and how I feel marriage SHOULD BE. Are all marriages like that? Realistically, no. There are FAR too many folks getting married who (if I may be so bold) have no business getting married. But, it's not for me to jump in and correct someone once they have already gotten married. The Catholic Church has something called an annullment, which I believe basically states that a marriage never took place according to the eye's of the C. Church and also in the eyes of God...(the marriage never existed)....I truly can understand that line of thinking....there ARE marriages that are not put together BY GOD. But it's not for me to point out which marriages are "real" & genuine in God's eyes and which one's aren't. God is FAR more adept at convincing men and women of sin than we are! I am so thankful for that. If people are honest and listen to their God-given consciences, they know in their hearts when something is wrong.... Now, if someone were to sincerely ask for my opinion or advice on a matter, I would give it. But I wouldn't expect them to heed MY advice: They are left with their OWN decision in the matter. However, if someone I care about and am very close to is doing something that I feel is truly destructive in their life, I would hope that I would say something before it was too late. Even then, they may or may not take my advice: they are still left with making their own choice and I risk alienating them. And so: I've have found that the BEST answers are to go to God and ask Him to show me the best answers and to do that honestly, earnestly and sincerely. The answers I get may not always appease my flesh! In fact, many times my flesh will be disappointed with God's choice....BUT....my Spirit will soar when I am right with God. Yes, let's be compassionate, by all means....but too often, humans and Christian groups look the other way and try to sweep sin under the carpet and pretend it's not there. Too often, people file for divorce and jump into the next relationship before the previous divorce is even final. Have they dealt with the issues of the previous marriage? What kind of example does this set for others? No wonder the moral fabric of our society is becoming more unwoven. People think they can do whatever they want and not be accountable. First marriage didn't quite work out? Hmm. No problem, just get a divorce and try again with another person. Such mentality causes a person to not ever get to the bottom of their own issues and take ownership for their issues. And, believe me, their issues WILL carry over into future relationships unless those issues are resolved. So, God wants a person to ultimately to be truly happy by themselves with Him in relationship with Him. All other relationships are secondary. hah
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 21, 2009 18:15:26 GMT -5
UK01 I am sorry but I have to laugh at this continued line of thinking.
Why? For the facts of life. This is a true story
I know of a lady that was in the 2x2 and met a man also in the 2x2. They married after a short courtship - They had two children and from all appearances seemed to be a good couple----Then the man told her he was a switch hitter all along.
Now what would you do if you were in that womens place? No doubt God planned it that way.
P.S. the guy also told her he was not going to change-----
As always, there is a lot more to the story. So many nice people getting so hurt, how could God allow so much suffering? Children dying of starvation, how could you Lord?
All those innocent suffering as they are ripped apart by the tools of murdering abortion doctors, How could you Lord? How could God look away from all this suffering and pain?
First, I would interview the person you are talking about, then I could answer whether she allows her life to be lead by Gods Holy Spirit, or lives for the church, and abides by their rules?
But as the Lord put it:
Mark 10:11-12 11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery." NKJV
I have no authority to make any other decision then that what Jesus said. Some might take it out-of-date, but Jesus already was ready to say this before He even created the world. So how could the 'beginning and the end of all things be 'out of date' as many want to believe the Bible is?
To me, it updates itself as I read it each day, but for the most of it, including the O.T. it is still too NEW for most Christians to understand.
God bless you all, keep the faith, hold on to the truth even if faced with death. I do love you all (and you stop it now Gene, don't say it!, ... don't, .... better not, ....)
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 21, 2009 18:24:15 GMT -5
Hippy at heart:No wonder the moral fabric of our society is becoming more unwoven. People think they can do whatever they want and not have to be accountable. First marriage didn't quite work out? Hmm. No problem, just get a divorce and try again with another person. Such mentality causes a person to not ever get to the bottom of their own issues and take ownership for their issues. And, believe me, their issues WILL carry over into future relationships unless those issues are resolved. So, God wants a person to ultimately to be truly happy in a of themselves and by themselves with Him in relationship with Him. All other relationships are secondary. hah
I second that hah and third it too. Hah.. hah.. and hah.. WAIT, that did not come out right. I did not mean to laugh at that, I love it. It is the truth!!! I hope the Hippy isn't joking around and meant it also!!!
God bless you hippy, but 'hippy at heart'? those were some wild days, especially in fornication?
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Post by Sharon on Apr 21, 2009 18:32:21 GMT -5
I would like to ask in the context of this thread---- Has anyone considered that perhaps there are many marriages that are not of God in the first place. If that is the case then the marriage was never a Holy marriage from the get go. What makes for a Holy Union (marriage) in the eyes of God--- My opinion is yes there are many un-marriages which God allows for correction in a new and Holy marriage. UK, I've had this argument for many years....I've known of many marriages of my youth where two young folks got married to get away from home or at least for one of them.....I've known of some marriages because one of the young folk's parent(s) didn't like the new spouse and had been quite verbal in letting their young adult child that they sure shouldn't marry so-and-so! I've also known of marriages of my younger days to have been out of necessity....two young adults went just a bit too far and a pregnancy was the result and in those days it was a terrible thing for a young woman to have the baby out of wedlock.....didn't often matter how soon after the wedding the babe was born, just as long as daddy accepted "his" responsibility in the mistake....also often it was a way for a young man to keep from going to prison on "rape" charges and it still is when the young lady is underaged but still promiscuous.....young ladies' parents can sure ring fear down on these young men when their daughters are underaged and pregnant! Often times, I've even known mothers of daughters tell them to "trap" the young man..."let him get you pregnant and me and your daddy will make sure you get a nice husband out of it." Those types of marriage, in no way could be marriages in the sight of God....for He certainly had nothing to do with them!
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Post by hippyatheart on Apr 21, 2009 18:38:19 GMT -5
Hippy at heart:No wonder the moral fabric of our society is becoming more unwoven. People think they can do whatever they want and not have to be accountable. First marriage didn't quite work out? Hmm. No problem, just get a divorce and try again with another person. Such mentality causes a person to not ever get to the bottom of their own issues and take ownership for their issues. And, believe me, their issues WILL carry over into future relationships unless those issues are resolved. So, God wants a person to ultimately to be truly happy in a of themselves and by themselves with Him in relationship with Him. All other relationships are secondary. hahI second that hah and third it too. Hah.. hah.. and hah.. WAIT, that did not come out right. I did not mean to laugh at that, I love it. It is the truth!!! I hope the Hippy isn't joking around and meant it also!!! God bless you hippy, but 'hippy at heart'? those were some wild days, especially in fornication? Yes, I meant that and I have seen the fallout of failed marriages. .....though I hope that I don't judge those who are divorced....I still see what they go through when they get divorced and then I see people get remarried before they have even settled their issues that contributed to the failure of the first marriage. It makes my heart sick... why? Because I care, that's why. I care and I see the hurt that goes with divorce. I certainly don't like seeing people getting back into yet ANOTHER unhappy marriage...trying to become complete within another person...when all along, God is there yearning to make each one of us COMPLETE with and IN Him! Yes, I see so many destructive behaviors associated with marriage by itself. Many unhappy and stifling and controlling and abusive marriages, I, too am one that wonders why people get married if it is to bring so much misery upon one another. Isn't it better to have fulfilling relationships and friendships that do not lend themselves to entitlement & destructive treatment of one another? Granted, sometimes we meet our match, a match made in Heaven and we WANT to be owned by one another, yet we want to take ownership within the marriage. In order to do that we need to take ownership for who we are BEFORE we get married. Too many people get married under false pretenses. It causes me to feel heartsick if I think about it too much. I hope I don't judge others who have failed in marriage. I am divorced from my first and only marriage and I know what it feels like to fee like a failure in that. Not fun. So, yes, I guess the ISSUE is really this: How are we, as Christians supposed to TREAT people who are divorced and remarried while the former spouse is still alive? Do we hold them prisoner to their past mistakes? Don't we all make mistakes that we continue to live with? I once asked a devout professing women why she took such a rigid stance on divorce and remarriage being adultery and that the person living in adultery (a sin) should not take FULL PART in the fellowship: she said that for them to take full part was condoning the sin their were living in and that if professing people didn't take a stand on the issue they would be "just like all the other churches out there". I felt that that was sad answer if the ONLY thing she thinks is special or different about her fellowship is the D&R stance. (God forbid they have ANY other types of sinners in the fellowship)I thought she had more faith than that! It was disheartening to hear the answer she gave: as if her righteous stance meant more that God's Greatness. hah
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Post by hippyatheart on Apr 21, 2009 19:04:19 GMT -5
I would like to ask in the context of this thread---- Has anyone considered that perhaps there are many marriages that are not of God in the first place. If that is the case then the marriage was never a Holy marriage from the get go. What makes for a Holy Union (marriage) in the eyes of God--- My opinion is yes there are many un-marriages which God allows for correction in a new and Holy marriage. UK, I've had this argument for many years....I've known of many marriages of my youth where two young folks got married to get away from home or at least for one of them.....I've known of some marriages because one of the young folk's parent(s) didn't like the new spouse and had been quite verbal in letting their young adult child that they sure shouldn't marry so-and-so! I've also known of marriages of my younger days to have been out of necessity....two young adults went just a bit too far and a pregnancy was the result and in those days it was a terrible thing for a young woman to have the baby out of wedlock.....didn't often matter how soon after the wedding the babe was born, just as long as daddy accepted "his" responsibility in the mistake....also often it was a way for a young man to keep from going to prison on "rape" charges and it still is when the young lady is underaged but still promiscuous.....young ladies' parents can sure ring fear down on these young men when their daughters are underaged and pregnant! Often times, I've even known mothers of daughters tell them to "trap" the young man..."let him get you pregnant and me and your daddy will make sure you get a nice husband out of it." Those types of marriage, in no way could be marriages in the sight of God....for He certainly had nothing to do with them! Yes, what you are describing does happen and has happened...but don't forget that it takes two to make a baby and if sex never takes place between two people there will be no future issue of entrapment to be caught up in or QUESTION of fatherhood. Also, remember that it is often the girl that is left with carrying the child and bearing the public shame of the pregnant body out of wedlock. The best solution: sex within a Godly marriage! Novel idea, I know, but it's still very possible! Why not be more moral as a society and quit screwing around so much? Imagine the repercussions of such moral behavior. (now I AM being sarcastic) hah
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Post by Sharon on Apr 21, 2009 20:17:44 GMT -5
HAH! You know I've been so bitterly disappointed in the "morals" of some of the supposedly most Moralistic people I know....that I have almost come to the conclusion that it isn't POSSIBLE that all men nor women can live a live of abstinence. I witnessed the "lover" loving of an old maid lady, who'd I'd swore she'd never let a man kiss her once about 30 yrs. ago...I still haven't gotten over that shock. I've also read on this TMB about overseers of the Truth's fellowship having sex with an elder's wife....etc....is there no end of the sexual eplorations that people won't let themselves subscribe to? Is there no human who is sacred? I really don't think there is....I know those who've been the loudest proponents of the anit D&R issues may not necessarily be secretly having sex somewhere, but what sins ARE they guilty of? Are they not just as guilty as anyone else....even if we tell a lie, that makes us guilty of fornication, adultery, murder, mayhem...Paul said that...NO sin is worse then another in the eyes of God....and any of us that get so self righteous as to declare that someone else is far worse then we are.....then we're being hypocrites. JMO
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terry
Senior Member
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Post by terry on Apr 21, 2009 20:29:36 GMT -5
One thought that a poster mentioned briefly, and I'm too lazy to go back thru the thread to find, is that the phrase "What God has joined let no man cut assunder" But do we really know if God has joined the two individuals in marriage? There isn't any "blessing" of the marriage by the workers--at least in the Midwest when I was in, which is almost 30 years ago, the workers didn't attend weddings and certainly never gave a blessing on one. And to support another thought, are we straining at gnats? There have been verses quoted from the OT which support divorce, but those come from the same book that advocates stoning for adultery, forbidding the eating of pork or shell fish--laws which the 2x2 don't follow. Jesus had the exception in his decree against remarriage which was fornication. Then you add in the problem of translation--wasn't the KJV translated from Latin? At any rate the old saying "something got lost in the translation" plus the fact that the meaning of words change over time means we don't really know what Jesus was saying. Paul also taught that women should remain silent--do we literally adhere to that? Isn't compassion and a realistic look at individual circumstances more important? Yes, I know I'm speaking as one whose marriage ended thru infidelity and desertion by my spouse, and I will never return to the 2x2 religion and so you may find my view slanted. Good points, terry. I know that I am not the one to know or decide what God has truly joined together....to do such would be like playing Russian Roulette! So, therefore, I feel it is prudent to take heed to the warning: .... "What God has joined together let not men put asunder". (Matthew 19verse6). I pretty much live on the premise that marriage is marriage-- and when people get married it is intended for a lifetime by God or why bother getting married in the first place? If people are going to get married with a mindset that if things don't work out, they can always get a divorce, then the whole institution of marriage is a FARCE. So, I HAVE to respect that marriage IS something God has joined. That's my stance on marriage and how I feel marriage SHOULD BE. Are all marriages like that? Realistically, no. There are FAR too many folks getting married who (if I may be so bold) have no business getting married. But, it's not for me to jump in and correct someone once they have already gotten married. The Catholic Church has something called an annullment, which I believe basically states that a marriage never took place according to the eye's of the C. Church and also in the eyes of God...(the marriage never existed)....I truly can understand that line of thinking....there ARE marriages that are not put together BY GOD. But it's not for me to point out which marriages are "real" & genuine in God's eyes and which one's aren't. God is FAR more adept at convincing men and women of sin than we are! I am so thankful for that. If people are honest and listen to their God-given consciences, they know in their hearts when something is wrong.... Now, if someone were to sincerely ask for my opinion or advice on a matter, I would give it. But I wouldn't expect them to heed MY advice: They are left with their OWN decision in the matter. However, if someone I care about and am very close to is doing something that I feel is truly destructive in their life, I would hope that I would say something before it was too late. Even then, they may or may not take my advice: they are still left with making their own choice and I risk alienating them. And so: I've have found that the BEST answers are to go to God and ask Him to show me the best answers and to do that honestly, earnestly and sincerely. The answers I get may not always appease my flesh! In fact, many times my flesh will be disappointed with God's choice....BUT....my Spirit will soar when I am right with God. Yes, let's be compassionate, by all means....but too often, humans and Christian groups look the other way and try to sweep sin under the carpet and pretend it's not there. Too often, people file for divorce and jump into the next relationship before the previous divorce is even final. Have they dealt with the issues of the previous marriage? What kind of example does this set for others? No wonder the moral fabric of our society is becoming more unwoven. People think they can do whatever they want and not be accountable. First marriage didn't quite work out? Hmm. No problem, just get a divorce and try again with another person. Such mentality causes a person to not ever get to the bottom of their own issues and take ownership for their issues. And, believe me, their issues WILL carry over into future relationships unless those issues are resolved. So, God wants a person to ultimately to be truly happy by themselves with Him in relationship with Him. All other relationships are secondary. hah Yes, I know first hand of the RC annulement process having gone thru it. I'd actually had it in my post and then took it out. They don't look at what happened to cause the divorce, but what where the cirmcumstances of the marriage. In my case it was apparent, from my ex and her mother that fidelity wasn't a word she had any understanding of and I was granted an annulment--it didn't mean our child was a bas---d, jus the the union, in the eyes of the church hadn't be blessed of God. In the example given of the man who revealed himself as a switch hitter I'm sure the same verdict would have been rendered.
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 21, 2009 21:01:29 GMT -5
Geez! After following this thread for a few days, I can truly understand why there are some who look at Christianity and so NO THANX!
I am thankful that those of you Bible thumpers on here that believe remarried people are committing adultery will never be allowed to judge my soul!! For the first time in all the years on these Boards, you have actually given me the creeps!!!
I guess I'm morphing into a new phase of my life.......I used to have patience with such ignorance!
E
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 21, 2009 21:34:54 GMT -5
Geez! After following this thread for a few days, I can truly understand why there are some who look at Christianity and so NO THANX! I am thankful that those of you Bible thumpers on here that believe remarried people are committing adultery will never be allowed to judge my soul!! For the first time in all the years on these Boards, you have actually given me the creeps!!! I guess I'm morphing into a new phase of my life.......I used to have patience with such ignorance! E Sorry, Edy, but sometimes you just have to choose between scripture and common sense. I think "ignorant" is a severe word for people who are merely obeying scripture. Not that I don't agree with you...I just wouldn't say it out loud...
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Post by stargazer on Apr 21, 2009 21:43:03 GMT -5
I wonder why the religion of the bedroom gets so much more press and comment than the religion of the spirit? And here I am reading this endless thread.
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Pink
Senior Member
Posts: 411
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Post by Pink on Apr 21, 2009 21:53:23 GMT -5
You know, I don't really care what anyone thinks about my divorce and remarriage.......it is what it is......it happened for what it did.........i really don't have to account to anyone for it, besides God, if I believe in the christian god............so you really can't take away my beliefs........whatever they may be...........
Happy is the man who condemneth himself not in that which he alloweth.................anyone ever read that verse? Well, scripture is not for private interpretation, so that scripture speaks to me and how it speakes to me really doesn't matter to how it speaks to you..............that means God is the judge...........
For this I am so glad that man doesn't judge me..............for man is to harsh.............his thoughts are not like God's and his ways are not like God's................and that is the reality for those who believe in the christian god...........it is in the Good Book.........
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 21, 2009 22:05:01 GMT -5
Geez! After following this thread for a few days, I can truly understand why there are some who look at Christianity and so NO THANX! I am thankful that those of you Bible thumpers on here that believe remarried people are committing adultery will never be allowed to judge my soul!! For the first time in all the years on these Boards, you have actually given me the creeps!!! I guess I'm morphing into a new phase of my life.......I used to have patience with such ignorance! E Sorry, Edy, but sometimes you just have to choose between scripture and common sense. I think "ignorant" is a severe word for people who are merely obeying scripture. Not that I don't agree with you...I just wouldn't say it out loud... You know, DC, "ignorance" is a harsh word, but I think it's appropriate. Think about this.....the very premise that remarriage is commiting adultery is based on flawed translations and ignoring the direction of God's Law. The reason (in my opinion), that some won't do the study is their fear of disappointing their religious leaders who give evidence of "the blind leading the blind". I have listened to various people on this (both professing and B & R), and when I try to show them what the Scripture actually does say, it's like they stick their fingers in their ears and go "DAH, DAH, DAH, DAH" so they can't hear a thing. If we look at the verses in Deut. that many have quoted here about remarriage, it is obvious that God does not consider the remarriage adultery! Some then say, "Jesus changed that with his words in the NT." Well, they can go ahead and believe that, but then they fit themselves into the verses in Matt. 5:17-19 that tells us that anyone who believes that Jesus came to change (or destroy) the law, and teaching others the same, would be the least in the Kingdom. Well, it seems that Christian people would certainly want to attain a better "place" than being the least in the Kingdom, doesn't it? So, why then would they preach (and teach others so) that some "new" law was given to change or replace the Law of God?! If people would do the homework, it would become quite clear that a marriage is by contract, and God allows that contract to be voided by a proper bill of divorce. Our government gives a marriage license and a proper bill of divorce. When people are married "only in the church", the "church" gives the proper license and should also follow God's Law and provide a "proper bill of divorce" in order to release the parties to marry again. This is God's Law!!! We can go into all of the nice sounding things about being merciful and forgiving to "allow" remarried parties to "take part" or "take the bread and wine", or even "to allow them to go to meeting at all." That is all irrelevant to the issue. Remarriage is according to God's LAW!So, thanks for the rant time. I still feel creepy about what I've read here this time! LOL! Best! Edy
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Pink
Senior Member
Posts: 411
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Post by Pink on Apr 21, 2009 22:22:20 GMT -5
Edy.........I know exactly how you feel.........about the ignorance......and the patience with it........and then the GLORIOUS morphing into a new life..............I feel I am ready to embark on this totally new adventure and it is INVIGORATING...........................
Love to all, tho I sound harsh to some,,,...
Pink
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 21, 2009 22:43:34 GMT -5
Edy.........I know exactly how you feel.........about the ignorance......and the patience with it........and then the GLORIOUS morphing into a new life..............I feel I am ready to embark on this totally new adventure and it is INVIGORATING........................... Love to all, tho I sound harsh to some,,,... Pink
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Post by JO on Apr 21, 2009 23:21:38 GMT -5
If we look at the verses in Deut. that many have quoted here about remarriage, it is obvious that God does not consider the remarriage adultery! Some then say, "Jesus changed that with his words in the NT." Well, they can go ahead and believe that, but then they fit themselves into the verses in Matt. 5:17-19 that tells us that anyone who believes that Jesus came to change (or destroy) the law, and teaching others the same, would be the least in the Kingdom. When Jesus spoke about divorce was there any law about how many wives a man could have?
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Post by scarletto on Apr 22, 2009 1:04:41 GMT -5
I agree with much of what you've posted and what siwells has already pointed out: Aren't we straining at a gnat by adamately drawing a rigid line on the issue of divorce and remarriage constituting adultery (a sin)? I think Satan is having a heyday with all this. If satan can cause division, he will in ANY way he can. If it's the D & R issue, he'll go for it.....and folks play into his hand quite easily enough. The mentality of our enemy is such: "Hey, dudes, and all demons, let's give them something to feel RIGHTEOUS about. Let's convince them that they are above all others on this issue and if they budge they are no longer God's true way." Pretty soon, it seems as though it's all is founded on the line drawn with D & R instead of being founded on Christ and ALL the principles HE taught and promoted and exemplified. For Heavens' sake, it was JESUS who got down on His knees and washed the feet of the disciples. When Peter realized the TRUTH of the matter, he wanted Jesus to wash not only his feet, but his WHOLE body! Do we accept THAT Jesus? Or do we only accept "the Jesus" that we think is acceptable in the human mind of "what's acceptable"?! When I "signed on" to being a true believer and a child of God and given a new birth, I accepted the ENTIRE Jesus, not just part of His teachings and part of His Gospel. I accepted the Whole Thing, kit and kaboodle, the entire package and the real deal....ALL of it.
FOCUSING on D&R as an act of adultery is taking the focus off of Christ and placing the focus on another human being: the SINNER; the one who is perceived as living in sin: living in adultery. Isn't that just what satan wants? He wants us to do ANYTHING but keep our focus where it should be. Satan wants us to focus on one another and the sin that others are living in. That way, you see, we don't have to totally deal with ALL the many many many sins that we carry around ourselves.
So go ahead and make D & R into a great big issue, meanwhile, you've got a whole cart load of sins that still need to be dealt with that God isn't likely to overlook anytime soon, just because you stuck to one principle. Thank you Scarlett O, This is the post: "Mean treatment of divorced-remarried.." and I believe that it is a good subject, NOT menial or small like a gnat or a mote, but is one of the most misunderstood and painful subjects facing the world today. No, we address just about every subject here on TMB, that's why I love it. We have a lot of educated, well learned people in both the Scriptures as well as just about every other philosophy, science to cover all sorts of topics. We cover sin from a-z, eye Gene? We address the subject at hand. If I know the answer to something from scripture, I will answer it, because I believe that is what we are to do as Christians. If you think I sound arrogant because God has revealed to me the answers to something you did not know, or even after my explanation, you do not understand, then no matter if I'm clothed in sackcloth and ashes on my head, you will find it offensive. I know how Jesus was on this earth, how He washed the Apostles feet, and so if you want me to wash your feet before you can accept my answer to a particular subject, by all means please let’s make that a possibility. I’ll give you my phone number and e-mail address, set a time and place, call all the people you wish to be present, I’ll even bring the bucket and I will gladly, with great honor do it. But I want you to know that what I say is what I learned from Scripture and years of listening to many, many other denominations, religions, cults, and compare all that with Gods Word, and with a good intention to make others understand and see what I believe is the truth, I pass it on to whoever wants to hear it. It is food to those that want to learn, it is ammunition to those that war against the lies of Satan, and of course, poison to those that hate the light. So if you find it faulty or that I’m misinterpreting Gods Word, by all means I am listening with both ears to what you have to tell me, I promise I will love you for it. I am so aware of being wrong or that I might say something that is not the true message of Christ. I do make mistakes, but his in no way to say that I am trying to mislead anyone. You did not say where I am going astray, only that I seem arrogant and heading toward causing division. I don't know if you noticed that here on TMB there is a lot of different views of God, and some that don't even believe in God, and I did not cause this division, but sure would love to be the instrument to bring it together all in Christ based on HIS WORD. I pray you can help me to this end, don't be offended, please. Beautifully written, thank-you. I am sorry if it seems I called you arrogant....umm....I truly do not view you as such-and do not recall accusing you of arrogancy. But, if I did call you arrogant, well, I'm sorry for that as it is not nice to call people names and maybe I hurt your feelings, for which I am doubly sorry for! Please accept my heartfelt good tidings and glad wishes for you seem very earnest and sincere in your endeavors. Thanks for being gracious. love, scarlett
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Post by scarletto on Apr 22, 2009 1:06:42 GMT -5
Edy.........I know exactly how you feel.........about the ignorance......and the patience with it........and then the GLORIOUS morphing into a new life..............I feel I am ready to embark on this totally new adventure and it is INVIGORATING........................... Love to all, tho I sound harsh to some,,,... Pink The rain brings green grass and then: new life springs forth. scarlett
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Post by Sharon on Apr 22, 2009 7:32:27 GMT -5
Siwells: BUT the sin of fornication and/or adultery is not unforgiveable.......Most workers that I know about, do not consider it a "continual adultery" for the remarried....they consider that "adultery" was committed whenever the relationship was sexually consummated, but technically it was adultery when they looked upon each other with desire. It still is better to marry then to burn, is it not?Amen Nathan,So Siwells, are you saying that if a married man goes with a prostitute once, he might as well continue going back to her because it is only the first time that God considered it a sin? You know, not to burn, since next weekend comes around and the ‘boys’ or the ‘girls’ want to hit those bars, oh well, I already committed adultery, I already screwed up, so what the hell, might as well continue. John 8:11 And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." NKJV Here was a woman that left her way of life, her five husbands and the boyfriend she was living with and ‘followed HIM’. She became a pillar, a good example of what a Christian should be, and she is going to be rewarded greatly for her sacrifice of all that lust and worldly pleasure. I did read those verses again, nathan. Matt 19:8-10 When Jesus told them they could not just divorce for any reason they thought it would be better not to marry. What an example of human nature! "I can't do what I want, when I want to,so I won't do it at all" Well, all Jesus said was to marry, and that He wished a married couple to stay married. If marital unfaithfulness happened then divorce was made possible by a bill of divorcement and remarriage was permitted.No siwells, the Apostles did understand what Jesus said and meant, and so did the young Rich Ruler. That is why they said that ‘it is better not to marry’, since they seen that if now they married someone they didn’t like, it became clear that they were ‘stuck’ with them ’As Long As You Live’! “What?” They said with a big surprise on their faces. “Hey, let’s ask Him privately, maybe we didn’t understand what he said?” So: “In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."Aww.. Lord, so why did Moses, …Jesus looked at them and said: "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."His disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry." There are no contradictions here, Nathan is right.It is same when we come to accept Christ as our Bride, we are not to philander with other religions, or sects, but are to remain in HIS WORD, as HIM being the head, the ‘husband’ and not some misguided Workers or some self-proclaimed prophets, or the god of this world who claims to be ‘Holy Father’ the Pope. You want to keep too many doors open Siwells, but we all must sit down and count the cost before we jump into anything, that includes becoming a Christian, or getting married. This is exactly what is going on, in, and with Christianity, if they don’t like something that Jesus said, or required of them (like their dying loyalty just like in marriage), then they simply ‘divorce’ Jesus and ‘rewrite’ the Bible to match to something they ‘could’ accept. Maybe this ‘new denomination’, will give me pleasure, because abiding by this Bible just doesn’t give me the ‘freedom’ I want. Maybe becoming a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a Seventh Day Adventist, then, yes, then I will be happy. Nope, not them either, so I know, I will become ‘Non-Denominational’! The Bible is just too ‘blah..’ you know, he’s kind of old fashioned. I want something alive and hip! With a new music group, yes, a band. A nice building where they pamper my kids and shower them with love, love, love, and teach them how Santa is just for fun. I know, I’ll find a man/church where they don’t point out you faults. Yes, with this man/church I will surely be happy. And you do see many who leave one denomination and switch to another hoping to find that perfect husband/church, JUST LIKE in marriage. Yes Siwells, “With God all things are possible” just like you pointed out, so staying with your first wife/husband IS possible, especially if you claim you are a Christian. Remember that He said, no matter how bad you screw up, no matter what mistake you made, that “I will be with you even till the end of the world” and “I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you!” So wouldn’t HE more likely help you to ‘stay’ with your first husband/wife, and NOT seek after and live in ‘adultery’? Why would God fix a second marriage and not fix if you go back to the first? Wouldn't that encourage more divorce if He helped the second, or third? What if the fifth worked with an Elder, then everyone would say: "I guess it's best with the fifth marriage." (Just as I hear so many say about the 'third' marriage being the best, lasting the longest). Siwells: These days marital unfaithfulness can mean different issues. The laws in our country permit divorce and remarriage.It also permits abortion, kill in self defense, take someone to court even if it’s your fellow Christian, set up idols of Trees in your home and offer gifts under it for a month, celebrate the birth day of a god named Mithra as long as you paste it over with Christ-mass, Christ-tree, Christ-bunny etc. Everything covered in sheepskin. But my God, can’t Christians see that when you put a sheepskin on a Christmas tree, the ‘trunk’ is showing? Look it up on the internet and you will see the trunk showing big time. Sin is sin, and the only way out of it is through repentance, not getting more deeper into it. Re-marriage is a sin, the only way to repent is to ‘leave’ that relationship, (to abide by the law, then divorce the new husband. The second, or third was not a marriage in the first place, no matter what the law says.) What about the kids from the second, third, fourth fifth marriages? What happens to them? How cruel can you be?If you have a ‘second’ marriage, then you have already committed a cruelty act, if you are on your third marriage then you have ‘two’ previous ‘cruelty’ acts to live with. So no matter how you look at it, the best thing is to stop, go back to the first one if you can, (remember that ‘everything is possible with God’) and ‘MAKE’ it work jst like the ones that ‘make it work’ with the second, or eighth one. I don’t care which marriage anyone is on, it was when they decided that ‘it’s enough, I will make this one work!’ that they stopped divorcing, NOT because now THIS one is that ‘perfect one’. God bless you all, please no hard feelings, I know it is a difficult subject, but most importantly, Our Heavenly Father Knows it also. And we know that through HIM, all things are possible. Ariangabe, in Proverbs and also in Psalms it tells about men joining themselves with harlots and it pretty much indicates that they're joined as much as any sexual encounter....it is the intent of the heart and mind that comes into the question, I believe. There are things that Jesus did that one can wonder about, but His intent and purpose was holy....He saw NO evil in it. I'm thinking about His disciples plucking ears of corn on the sabbath...His answer was that He was Lord of the sabbath as well.....Otherwords, who is Lord of what we're doing? Is it pure selfishness? The problem with having sexual relations outside a marriage is a sin AGAINST one's self according to the Bible....and it does begin to work on the heart and mind content of the one committing that sexual sin...and most likely the mindset becomes "Oh, Yes! I had sex with a harlot the other night and nothing bad happened, I'll try it again." But in the course of doing so, the mindset becomes more defiled. And the sin against one's self becomes greater and greater until God can only turn them over to a "reprobate mind." Paul said it like this.....to one man a day is holy whereas to another man the day is like all the rest. To one man something is evil and will remain evil, but unto another man he is at liberty.. He also said we were not to use our liberty tohurt our brethren....some serious thoughts there. I got into this foregoing issue with a fellow in the truth's fellowship because I'd been raised NOT to work on Sun., but he had always worked on Sun. as he would have any other day and he saw nothing wrong with it...Yes, he generally went to mtg. in the morning, but he might be burning brush in the afternoon....it made no difference to him. I'm not saying he had a reprobate mind, but he had a liberty about the value of the day as any other day.....they were all from God anyway....and I was making Sun. out to be the Lord's Day....neither one of us were wrong on the subject, but it was our mindset that made the difference.
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eaglesnest
Junior Member
Never look down on someone, unless you are helping them up.....Jesse Jackson
Posts: 69
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Post by eaglesnest on Apr 22, 2009 11:33:22 GMT -5
Seems to me that if we ourselves make sure that we alone are right with God, that is what matters most. When we die, we won't have our brethren beside us - and it won't matter then what our brethren did or didn't do that was 'right'. We will be all alone, standing before God. So to keep our own spirits right is what matters most, and those verses in Matthew speak on being merciful - if we show mercy, we will receive mercy. If we forgive, we will be forgiven. The bottom line is our own heart, what is in our own heart, and that has nothing at all to do with what others are or aren't doing. And keeping our own hearts right before God is a full time in itself. For me it is anyway~ :-)
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eaglesnest
Junior Member
Never look down on someone, unless you are helping them up.....Jesse Jackson
Posts: 69
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Post by eaglesnest on Apr 22, 2009 11:35:02 GMT -5
oops - I left out a word in my post - And keeping our own hearts right before God is a full time job in itself (sorry, I left out the word job)
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Post by scarletto on Apr 22, 2009 12:15:56 GMT -5
I DO believe that true believers need to take a stand on SIN. And I do see many churches in the world today with an 'anything goes' attitude. Again, we have the tale of two ditches. One ditch says anything goes and we don't need to WORRY about sin; we don't need to DEAL with our sin...God has forgiven us regardless. This 'ditch' OVERLOOKS true repentence and implies that we don't have to repent. The other ditch goes way far in the other direction and instead of having faith that God is ABLE to convince sinners of sin, we humans must go about being the "enforcers" on righteousness; to the point that we focus TOO MUCH on a particular sin and a particular "type" sinner...so much so that we overlook our own sin and FAIL to deal with the crud in our OWN inner-most being. One ditch is a lax attitude of "whatever" and the other ditch is an attitude of self-righteousness. Let's keep on the narrow path. Amen. scarlett What is it truly like to be pure -- deep within a soul? If I could paint a picture of purity, what would that picture be like? Christ. All of Christ, not just part of Christ. Good points, Scarlett. But let us not forget, that sometimes walking that narrow path that Jesus trod means taking a firm stand on certain issues....and.....one may be viewed as being a self-righteous enforcer when all they are doing is remaining true to their convictions. Personally, I feel that DIVORCE in and of itself MINUS the remarriage part has taken and is taking a HUGE toll on quality of life and the moral fabric of society. I know that there are cases in which divorce is the better choice for some couples....ie...such as in cases of ABUSE, but, often, divorce is too easy of an answer when the going gets tough in a marriage and couples are up against dealing with some issues that will inevitably come out during intimacy. When we become TRULY intimate with another person, we bare our soul, and the truth of who we are is open....open to ...what? Open to the fact that the one we are intimate with may tell us they don't like every single thing about us and open to the fact that we are not perfect and as humans we find it very difficult to love one another with an unconditional love. BUT--I still believe the God is asking us to once again: RISE ABOVE.....rise up....lift ourselves and one another above what we would naturally do....live for the spirit and for eternity instead of living for the flesh and for temporal things. Earthly marriage is just that: earthly marriage. It is SO limited. I discovered that the hard way. I believe that if it would have been better to stay married and to work things out & I tried....but it didn't end that way....and he left me and I couldn't stop him from going. My loss,, but both of us lost something. I realized that I could not put my faith and trust in an earthly partnership....my marriage was a temporary partnership, looked upon by man's laws as a viable and legitimate union. In all honesty....I know now that we rushed into marriage and we really did not WAIT for the best partner to come into our lives. I live with that mistake. But, I also feel that God can forgive me of that mistake. Does He want me to repeat it? Of course not. So, I guess, in essence, what I am hearing from you Scarlett is that you feel that sometimes humans like to "play God" and that they want God to be God when it "fits", but they are not totally accepting of ALL that God is....and the fact is that there are issues that we do not know all the answers on. We do not know the extent of God's forgiveness. I believe that the Scribes and Pharisees were trying to trip Jesus up on the D&R issue -trying to MAKE an issue of something Jesus did not originally bring up. I believe we have the same thing happening today: allowing ourselves to get stuck on a certain issue and a certain sin and particular sinners. Meanwhile, God will ensure that the Gospel Message is carried forth, in the midst of the all the dic-kering of D&R...Yes, there are times when we will be called to take a firm stand--but there will also be times when we are asked to let go and let God do the convincing of sin in His own way and in His own timing. God wants to be INTIMATE with us. One way in which He does that is by calling us into fellowship with others. We are called, and asked to bare our souls, to get intimate, vulnerable-- to open ourselves up; and yes, to be honest with ourselves and deal with issues that will be brought out. God Bless hah Hippy- In the first paragraph you speak about walking the narrow path that Jesus trod. Let us not forget that Jesus wants to walk that path WITH us...and does not expect us to be totally sin-free, but that He simply asks us to take His yoke and learn of Him and that we take His yoke upon us: we share the load...He asks us to lay our sin AT HIS FEET! Imagine that!! Jesus. Our Savior asking us, maybe even DARING us to lay our sin AT HIS FEET. Lay down our heavy burdens, the burden of sin(s)...and YES, adultery IS a sin, certainly NOT to be overlooked: but let us then not overlook the different types of adultery. In the second paragraph you write of intimacy. When we are truly intimate we open ourselves up and are vulnerable. Those we are intimate with learn about MANY of our sins and imperfections, not just those sins that are very open, common knowledge, and worn publically. Do we forsake someone or give someone less friendship because we learn they are imperfect? What would Jesus do? Jesus displayed an attitude of this: .."Because I love you I will not forsake you in your sin, but I want to HELP you with your sin....so much so...that I am willing to go all the way to the Cross and die for your sin...that's how much I will help you with your sin..." Yes! Jesus DOES want to be intimate with us. But when we discover how sinful we really are, He doesn't reduce us to a lesser status of intimacy. NO, He sticks by us through thick and thin as we are willing to also take HIS yoke as well and get in that yoke with Him. When we do it with Him, it's not nearly as rough! Are we asking sinners, [by asking them to not take part] to deal with their sin alone and without the benefits of being in the yoke with Christ? Hey, I think this is a legitimate question. What would Jesus do and what kind of attitude would He take about forbidding sinners to take part in fellowship? IN the third paragraph you write about earthly marriage. I totally agree with what you've written. Fourth paragraph you write about "playing God". Yes, I guess that's the impression I get when people step in and "manage" certain sins, but overlook other sins and don't give a multitude of other sins the time of day or even a nod of acknowledgment. So, yes, the sense I get is that humans have a tendency to "play God" in determining what sins are going to be enforced and what sins will be overlooked and no 'consequences' given. As has already been pointed out we are not capable of knowing the mind of God, but we are capable of entrusting our sin and our lives to Him as our Heavenly Father. Last paragraph, you conclude by stating God wants to be intimate with us. True, so true. He already knows us better than we could possibly know ourselves, so what makes me think I can pick one sin from a multitude of sins and make that be the sin that says someone cannot partake fully in fellowship? Hey-I've just realized that in discussing this topic:"Mean treatment of divorce and remarried people": we have been unearthing other worthwhile topics as well: .............................................................. The narrow path-Intimacy with God and with others- Earthly marriage vs. spiritual marriage-Playing God- Taking the Yoke with Jesus-The "management of sin"- ............................................................... Nice discussion, hah and thanks. scarlett
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terry
Senior Member
Posts: 328
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Post by terry on Apr 22, 2009 14:48:23 GMT -5
Geez! After following this thread for a few days, I can truly understand why there are some who look at Christianity and so NO THANX! I am thankful that those of you Bible thumpers on here that believe remarried people are committing adultery will never be allowed to judge my soul!! For the first time in all the years on these Boards, you have actually given me the creeps!!! I guess I'm morphing into a new phase of my life.......I used to have patience with such ignorance! E Sorry, Edy, but sometimes you just have to choose between scripture and common sense. I think "ignorant" is a severe word for people who are merely obeying scripture. Not that I don't agree with you...I just wouldn't say it out loud... Do you eat pork or shell fish? Do you favor stoning adulterers? Do you drink milk and eat meat at the same meal?
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