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Post by JO on Apr 20, 2009 0:11:21 GMT -5
We just learned of a couple in their thirties who recently married ( both divorced) were asked not to attend any meetings by the overseer. Interesting to know, I recently heard of this happening as well. A friend of mine was telling me it appears that this is the workers new stance out west. I wonder how far this will stretch. Somewhat scary really. No grace to those sinners. Once we've weeded out those dang divorced and remarried people, I wonder who will be the next target to be removed for their sins.... I suppose the western alliance powers got together and decided on a final solution - simply reject those who are divorced and remarried. Out of sight - out of mind.
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lizzy
Senior Member
Posts: 530
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Post by lizzy on Apr 20, 2009 0:32:51 GMT -5
We just learned of a couple in their thirties who recently married ( both divorced) were asked not to attend any meetings by the overseer. Wow! Where was that?
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Post by freespirit on Apr 20, 2009 4:37:41 GMT -5
You know the one thing that is happy here is that everybody has their own idea and wish it to be practiced but there is very little here amongst christians of what God wants and the workers are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't on the very same subject. Not just the workers, kiwi. Bert's list shows some rather interesting and contridictory accusations about us. freespirit
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Post by freespirit on Apr 20, 2009 4:43:08 GMT -5
I know it don't make good sense as far as we are concerned but the point is what God's will is what matters. We heard in our meeting tonight about choices made and if we make choices in the beginning without God's imput we could be looking at disaster. oooooooooooh, boy, have I ever learned this the hard way! We can sure get entangled in some messy, hard, encumbering situations. I often feel very desperate for God's guidance. I am thankful we can take all our burdens, worries and issues to Him. freespirit
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 20, 2009 6:42:19 GMT -5
We just learned of a couple in their thirties who recently married ( both divorced) were asked not to attend any meetings by the overseer. Could you tell us what part of the country/world did this take place? Who is the Overseer in that area?
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Post by Sharon on Apr 20, 2009 7:08:59 GMT -5
In Australia, a D&R couple who'd gone to mtgs. for over 10 yrs. doing as they were asked....not to take part in mtg. at all...had gone to spec. mtgs. and convs. as well......Last conv. season, they went to conv. like they'd done so for over 10 yrs. They were met in the parking lot and told that there were NOT welcome, that they were lepers! Now that is shocking......I think it is one thing to ban them, but to tell them they're lepers? Seems kind of like the pot is being cleaned on the outside, but the inside is still full of ravening wolves or self-righteous tarletans?
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eaglesnest
Junior Member
Never look down on someone, unless you are helping them up.....Jesse Jackson
Posts: 69
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Post by eaglesnest on Apr 20, 2009 7:39:23 GMT -5
My friends,
How does Leslie White feel about this matter? In what spirit does he deal with this matter?
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Post by freespirit on Apr 20, 2009 8:09:07 GMT -5
Luke 18
9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:
10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
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Post by ariandgabe on Apr 20, 2009 9:50:21 GMT -5
Those who live in sin, then break up, then marry are accepted.
However those who marry, then break up, then marry are treated like lepers.
How can this doctrine be of God?
Through their legalistic stance the workers effectively uphold living in sin as better than legal marriage. This is why Jesus made it simple and without complications:Matt 5:28-29 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.NKJV Yes, but what if I cannot remain single but still love and want to serve my Lord?1 Cor 7:36-38 36 But if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of youth, and thus it must be, let him do what he wishes. He does not sin; let them marry.But remember:"... 37 Nevertheless he who stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 38 So then he who gives her in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better."NKJV The message is simple and clear in all three epistles: Matt 5:32 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. NKJV
Mark 10:11-12 11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery." NKJV
Luke 16:18 18 "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. NKJV
Jesus explains:
Matt 19:8-9 8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." NKJVThe exception; "except for sexual immorality" is given to leave, NOT to run and re-marry. If that was so, all we need to do is have sex with someone, and presto we are free to switch partners. Now with this new partner we live a perfect trouble free life, going to meetings, ah so happy all the time, ... PLEASEEEE. No. If the Workers and Elders and all Ministers of God would simply abide by Jesus simple instructions, there would not be so much pain and confusion. But no, they don't understand the simple instruction, or in many cases they make hasty or unfair and discriminating decisions, 'favoritism', and it becomes a mess and a painfully way of life. FIRST, ask yourself; "Am I a Christian? Is my life dedicated to serve the Lord even if faced with death? Is there anything in my life that I cherish 'more than' my Lord and my God? (You cannot serve 2 masters, ...) If NO, then my life is lead by God and everything that I experience is for my growing in HIM. The troubles are like the fire that purifies gold, my sufferings are a show of Love from the one who allowed it to come upon me. (If the suffering is unbearable, IT IS NOT from God, but one must see if it isn't SIN that is causing it.) There is NOTHING that HE would lay upon me that I could not handle. 'Not a hair on my head shall perish', and I know that my life here is only for a moment, until I die and be taken to live forever with HIM. As long as the other partner of a married couple is 'alive', that is that persons partner for life. "This is how God meant it from the beginning, He made them male and female, and they will cling to each other for life". If that partner is a sexual pervert or lives in adultery, the Believing partner, after doing all that is possible to have the other repent and 'sin no more', can leave. But there is no way to get married again, since the 'sinning' partner can at any time repent and return to the fold and reunite with his/her spouse and children. Simple and effective, that is IF you have decided not only to take upon yourself this holy name 'Christian', but to serve HIM with 'all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind'.I know this will not put me in the 'Post of the Week', and I know this will make me to be a cruel and unfair person, but I don't care anymore. I see the pain of divorce in the chilfren, the abuse, the pain, the feel of abandonment, the anger it causes, and all this can be avoided by a simple command; 'Do Not'. It is for OUR sake, NOT because God is some cruel being who does not want you to have a little fun. You want fun? Just look at the 'fun' millions of divorced (2,3,4 and more times) people are having. Do you 'really' want to be a part of that? "But he that, ... is not worthy of me.."You know His requirements, have you sat down and counted the 'cost'?
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Post by freespirit on Apr 20, 2009 10:02:00 GMT -5
If the Workers and Elders and all Ministers of God would simply abide by Jesus simple instructions, there would not be so much pain and confusion. I definitely know that my life is much simpler and less entangled when I stay in God's boundaries. I am grateful for His grace. freespirit
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eaglesnest
Junior Member
Never look down on someone, unless you are helping them up.....Jesse Jackson
Posts: 69
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Post by eaglesnest on Apr 20, 2009 11:47:13 GMT -5
Dear friends,
again, how does leslie white feel about this matter? interesting how no one is answering this question...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 11:56:33 GMT -5
Probably because Leslie White doesn't participate on this forum.......
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eaglesnest
Junior Member
Never look down on someone, unless you are helping them up.....Jesse Jackson
Posts: 69
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Post by eaglesnest on Apr 20, 2009 12:07:25 GMT -5
Probably because Leslie White doesn't participate on this forum....... Seems to me that other workers that also don't participate on this forum are being mentioned and quoted.....correct me if i'm wrong....
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Post by degem on Apr 20, 2009 12:09:23 GMT -5
no, you are not wrong, eaglesnest.
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eaglesnest
Junior Member
Never look down on someone, unless you are helping them up.....Jesse Jackson
Posts: 69
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Post by eaglesnest on Apr 20, 2009 12:12:26 GMT -5
We are not simply just talking about God's Word here, even Satan quoted Scripture. What we need for a TRUE answer is God's inspiration of His Holy Spirit to give the true interpretation - anyone can quote a verse out of context and cause strife and division and heartache.....
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Post by JO on Apr 20, 2009 14:17:44 GMT -5
Dear friends, again, how does leslie white feel about this matter? interesting how no one is answering this question... Leslie White has been influential in a few states but western overseers reject his views on D&R. Some have referred to him as a "false prophet".
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terry
Senior Member
Posts: 328
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Post by terry on Apr 20, 2009 15:57:01 GMT -5
because they wanted to know all the details? When I remarried my wife was RC and in order for her to recieve communion (sanctioned communion---the priest does NOT make the choice whether or not to give the communion. With the instances of politicians being denied communion it was because of thier public difience of church teachings) I went thru the "annulment" process which looks at existing state of mind and actions of both parties prior to the marriage. And a rendering of annulment does not imply that children are now illigetiment. In my case I was readily granted annulment. If it had not been granted, I would still have been accepted into the church and recieving communion would have officially discouraged, but would have been considered a decision between myself and God. I would not have been allowed to hold any position of responsibility within the church however. Seems a reasonable way to handle things. Are you saying it is a resonable way to handle things in your religion or in the religion of 2x2's........by the way, I am very interested in being Catholic if I ever embrace Christianity again......just so you know........... That I think that the privilege of communion should be between God and the communicate. If the comumunicate isn't worthy to take part, God will deal with that. If a D&R isn't allowed to be an elder, so be it, but to be denied communion isn't in man's juridiction.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 20, 2009 16:00:18 GMT -5
Are you saying it is a resonable way to handle things in your religion or in the religion of 2x2's........by the way, I am very interested in being Catholic if I ever embrace Christianity again......just so you know........... That I think that the privilege of communion should be between God and the communicate. If the comumunicate isn't worthy to take part, God will deal with that. If a D&R isn't allowed to be an elder, so be it, but to be denied communion isn't in man's juridiction. Did any of the Apostles deny communion to anyone? remembering of course that they were men.
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terry
Senior Member
Posts: 328
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Post by terry on Apr 20, 2009 16:11:07 GMT -5
While I was a single parent, Duane Hopkins and Ron Thomke had a "young couples" special mtg or gathering. I was also invited (and I realize this was certainly a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't). But the whole mtg was stressing that in order for a man to be useful in the kingdom, the wife had to be shining example, free from any taint of scandal. That a wife's improper behavior could keep the man from becoming an elder or responsibility for of a Wed. night mtg. At the time I was leading the Wed. night mtg, because there wasn't really a choice. I left completely depressed and was composing my letter to Duane telling him I would no longer lead the mtg in my head all the way home. A good friend and neighbor, non-professing, was babysitting for me and when I picked up my son I unloaded on her. She talked me out of doing anything and showed a great deal of compasion. But that mtg really accelerated my desire to leave. Because of the actions of my ex, I was a third class saint, but we need you so we'll make an exception, at least for awhile. There were two others who could have led the mtg, but lived quite a few miles away, and the rest of the mtg were elderly who needed attention throughout the week, which I took time to give. I'm sure it irritated the workers that after I'd remarried and had been ex'd the families of three of those good people (all thier children were non-professing) asked me to be a pall bearer at thier funerals.
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Apr 20, 2009 17:18:29 GMT -5
\ You do err not knowing the scriptures nor the POWER of God. The grace of God is sufficient for a divorced / separated person to live a Godly/righteous life without being remarried and brought by that into the state of adultery. Yes, it is difficult, and it is very difficult, and fraught with much difficulty; however, by the grace of God one will be enabled to live without entering into the state of adultery. John the Baptist lost his head because he told Herod he should not be married to his brother's wife. His brother was still alive. So many of the people who have left the Faith talk about the grace of God all the time except when it comes to people who are divored. Many seem to want to justify remarriage -- Where is the GRACE of God now ?
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Post by JO on Apr 20, 2009 17:20:59 GMT -5
....Because of the actions of my ex, I was a third class saint, but we need you so we'll make an exception, at least for awhile. There were two others who could have led the mtg, but lived quite a few miles away, and the rest of the mtg were elderly who needed attention throughout the week, which I took time to give. I'm sure it irritated the workers that after I'd remarried and had been ex'd the families of three of those good people (all thier children were non-professing) asked me to be a pall bearer at thier funerals. In the NT church elders were selected according to their care for the saints and the respect they have with outsiders - amongst other things. In our church they are selected almost entirely according to their sycophantic abilities. Jesus said his disciples with be known by their love one for another. In our church love is conditional on the workers' favor.
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Post by sojourningthrulife on Apr 20, 2009 17:29:53 GMT -5
The people in the Old Testament cried out for "flesh" and God rained it down on them.
So those who cry out for a new mate when the first one is still alive, they may get their request, but it will come with consequences that will be so unpleasant they will wish they had never made their request. I have yet to see anyone happy on their death bed who has made that choice to remarry with a living spouse. Their live becomes one twisted fate -- oh yes, in the beginning before the consequences are reaped, they think all is well and jolly, but down the road there is a horrible horrible disaster ....
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lizzy
Senior Member
Posts: 530
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Post by lizzy on Apr 20, 2009 17:43:34 GMT -5
While I was a single parent, Duane Hopkins and Ron Thomke had a "young couples" special mtg or gathering. I was also invited (and I realize this was certainly a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't). But the whole mtg was stressing that in order for a man to be useful in the kingdom, the wife had to be shining example, free from any taint of scandal. That a wife's improper behavior could keep the man from becoming an elder or responsibility for of a Wed. night mtg. At the time I was leading the Wed. night mtg, because there wasn't really a choice. I left completely depressed and was composing my letter to Duane telling him I would no longer lead the mtg in my head all the way home. A good friend and neighbor, non-professing, was babysitting for me and when I picked up my son I unloaded on her. She talked me out of doing anything and showed a great deal of compasion. But that mtg really accelerated my desire to leave. Because of the actions of my ex, I was a third class saint, but we need you so we'll make an exception, at least for awhile. There were two others who could have led the mtg, but lived quite a few miles away, and the rest of the mtg were elderly who needed attention throughout the week, which I took time to give. I'm sure it irritated the workers that after I'd remarried and had been ex'd the families of three of those good people (all thier children were non-professing) asked me to be a pall bearer at thier funerals. I don't want to burst your bubble at the privilege of being pall bearer, but some people ask someone because they think it will help them spritiually. ??What do you think? Were they hoping you'd return to the fold?
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Post by Sharon on Apr 20, 2009 17:57:52 GMT -5
The people in the Old Testament cried out for "flesh" and God rained it down on them. So those who cry out for a new mate when the first one is still alive, they may get their request, but it will come with consequences that will be so unpleasant they will wish they had never made their request. I have yet to see anyone happy on their death bed who has made that choice to remarry with a living spouse. Their live becomes one twisted fate -- oh yes, in the beginning before the consequences are reaped, they think all is well and jolly, but down the road there is a horrible horrible disaster .... Doesn't the Bible say something about those that marry will have trouble in the flesh....but it sure didn't say what marriage number that was, now did it? When you take two adults and they live together, there will be disagreements of some sort because you have two people who will think differently about something sooner or later. Now the "problems" that come with D&R people are just what the Bible says about just "married" people....troubles in the flesh....some seem to have more then others, some less....but a lot of that really is because of the differences in personalities, how they were raised, etc. Dictatory spouses that try to domineer the other one often become quite abusive to that spouse....there is often little recourse to take but to separate....but in order to keep from "burning" in fornication, there's divorce and remarriage. God is JUST as AGAINST "fornication" as He is Adultery, if not more so! He really want us to love our brethren and not be oppressors to one another or to default one another......but He also knows that some people just are that, "People"!
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 20, 2009 17:58:55 GMT -5
Just curious, Sojourneying- how many deathbeds of D&R friends have you been present at? The people in the Old Testament cried out for "flesh" and God rained it down on them. So those who cry out for a new mate when the first one is still alive, they may get their request, but it will come with consequences that will be so unpleasant they will wish they had never made their request. I have yet to see anyone happy on their death bed who has made that choice to remarry with a living spouse. Their live becomes one twisted fate -- oh yes, in the beginning before the consequences are reaped, they think all is well and jolly, but down the road there is a horrible horrible disaster ....
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Post by Sharon on Apr 20, 2009 18:01:20 GMT -5
While I was a single parent, Duane Hopkins and Ron Thomke had a "young couples" special mtg or gathering. I was also invited (and I realize this was certainly a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't). But the whole mtg was stressing that in order for a man to be useful in the kingdom, the wife had to be shining example, free from any taint of scandal. That a wife's improper behavior could keep the man from becoming an elder or responsibility for of a Wed. night mtg. At the time I was leading the Wed. night mtg, because there wasn't really a choice. I left completely depressed and was composing my letter to Duane telling him I would no longer lead the mtg in my head all the way home. A good friend and neighbor, non-professing, was babysitting for me and when I picked up my son I unloaded on her. She talked me out of doing anything and showed a great deal of compasion. But that mtg really accelerated my desire to leave. Because of the actions of my ex, I was a third class saint, but we need you so we'll make an exception, at least for awhile. There were two others who could have led the mtg, but lived quite a few miles away, and the rest of the mtg were elderly who needed attention throughout the week, which I took time to give. I'm sure it irritated the workers that after I'd remarried and had been ex'd the families of three of those good people (all thier children were non-professing) asked me to be a pall bearer at thier funerals. I don't want to burst your bubble at the privilege of being pall bearer, but some people ask someone because they think it will help them spritiually. ??What do you think? Were they hoping you'd return to the fold? Lizzy! I think Terry was saying that these "families" that had asked him to be a pall bearer were NOT professing people.....it is apparent that there was a true bond of love between Terry and the person(s) that passed away....they paid him an honor for having still loved the professing relatives even though he was no longer professing and had been thrust out, not left out on his own....most people who've been thrust out of the fellowship usually cut all their ties to those still professing because those still profession "have to" to please the workers. Anyway, that's the way I read Terry's note!
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lizzy
Senior Member
Posts: 530
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Post by lizzy on Apr 20, 2009 18:16:46 GMT -5
I don't want to burst your bubble at the privilege of being pall bearer, but some people ask someone because they think it will help them spritiually. ??What do you think? Were they hoping you'd return to the fold? Lizzy! I think Terry was saying that these "families" that had asked him to be a pall bearer were NOT professing people.....it is apparent that there was a true bond of love between Terry and the person(s) that passed away....they paid him an honor for having still loved the professing relatives even though he was no longer professing and had been thrust out, not left out on his own....most people who've been thrust out of the fellowship usually cut all their ties to those still professing because those still profession "have to" to please the workers. Anyway, that's the way I read Terry's note!
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lizzy
Senior Member
Posts: 530
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Post by lizzy on Apr 20, 2009 18:18:34 GMT -5
Lizzy! I think Terry was saying that these "families" that had asked him to be a pall bearer were NOT professing people.....it is apparent that there was a true bond of love between Terry and the person(s) that passed away....they paid him an honor for having still loved the professing relatives even though he was no longer professing and had been thrust out, not left out on his own....most people who've been thrust out of the fellowship usually cut all their ties to those still professing because those still profession "have to" to please the workers. Anyway, that's the way I read Terry's note! Hmm, well Terry will need to help clarify this. I hope it is as you see it Sharon.
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