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Post by emy on Dec 10, 2008 21:14:03 GMT -5
Note the qualifier: "with the direction to use it exactly as is."
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Post by emy on Dec 10, 2008 21:21:08 GMT -5
I'm in a position to possibly have a small bit of insight to this story. If the towns named are not changed, I'm familiar with people who lived in the town in the timeframe mentioned. Only one family fits any part of the description and I can vouch for the fact that family rarely attended meetings. One of the girls and the mother sometimes did, but I'm guessing not the one who wrote the account.
Just my 2c
I was pointed to this story in chat a couple nights ago, and my reaction was the same as some others here. The link to the f&w fellowship is weak - even weaker if my guess about the family is right.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 10, 2008 21:44:27 GMT -5
Note the qualifier: "with the direction to use it exactly as is." The qualifer was to differentiate between the letters and stories contributed to us website owners with the request that their English, spelling, grammar etc. be corrected.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 10, 2008 22:03:56 GMT -5
Do you mean it happens every day in the F&W's sect ? Or, do you mean in society in general ? Of course I do know what you mean. However, it serves as a warning. It shows that the perfect way is not so perfect after all and it is just possible the teachings and mindset of the way acted as a catalyst for some of the things which happened, due to the unrealistic expectations of striving for perfection placed on individuals, along with other factors. A psychologist would explain things better. Whilst saddened very much to read such things as this, I'm glad that the victims are willing to have such things shared because there are lessons in this for us all. What you learn from it may be different from me, but we all have a duty to learn from it, if I understand the fullness of the second great commandment. You know for what it's worth, the writer of the sad story has a valid point as far as the adversity of the 2X2's in her life. Though it was her father's fault that that became a reality to her. A child cannot separate who is who when so much abuse is at hand esp. af such a tender age...their main goal in life is as she said to divert the abuse off of herself and her younger sister. That said, the father is the guilty party to have used the 2X2's as punishment...demanding his wife and children go to mtg., etc. and then demoralizing them in every way conceivable in comparison to what "he" judged the folks within that 2X2 system! The same way he demoralized them because they were related to his in-laws whom he apparently could not find enough raw wrong to say about them or mock them with! I'm sorry the writer of the story is so out of it with the 2X2's because of her experiences, as horrific as they were...but I fully understand it! I'm only hoping her the best of goodwill and peace! Why it was a post here, is pretty much anyone's guess!
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Post by Sharon on Dec 10, 2008 22:23:39 GMT -5
Hi Clearday, in light of Cheryle's post I think I should hold back from any comments regarding why the author wrote her account and what involvement the Workers preachings and teachings may have had on her unfortunate circumstances. I can only speculate whilst the author or others may be able to validate ? I personally don't know anyone on VOT or much at all about their website. I usually don't go beyond TMB except when (as in this case) someone provides a link to a story or piece of information. Regarding Lessons which can be learned. I'm hoping they have already been learned and are being addressed through mediums such as WINGS, enforcement agencies, social works departments, churches etc. However, one point that I am trying to make and am failing miserably. I can see an invisible but strong link between the 2x2 church and this unforunate unbringing. I look at myself and although I did not suffer anything remotely like this woman, I can understand how the preachings and teachings her parents listened to could disable them in many ways. I cannot explain this properly. There is a factor at work which I cannot put my finger on properly, but perhaps a psychologist could. However, this factor is a controlling and disabling one resulting from the hard sell preachings and teachings such as: 1) This is the only way of God. Unless you profess you are going to Hell 2) The workers are God's only true servants on Earth 3) The workers are revered and are to be pleased 4) You must fit in to the professing system 5) You must be willing for a life of constant submission 6) Your thoughts are not God's thoughts. Many thus think that anything they think is wrong 7) Works is running after the workers, going to every possible meeting and mission, etc 8) This is the perfect way. If things go wrong in your life you are not submitting enough (to this way) 9) There is no real avenue to openly discuss concerns, questions with workers. 10) If you do question things you have a bad spirit, unwilling etc. These are just a few things off the top of my head, but believe me they can screw up the compliant, the submissive, the eager to please, the willing, the weak and the vulnerable. I can speak personally on that angle. If that is accepted, then it should be easy to see how such preachings and teachings and mindset can really screw up someone whose a bit psycho anyway. Perhaps that's what I'm trying to get at. This whole thing needs examined by professionals and exposed. The whole professing package needs looked at and much of it binned. How many people go through life with a negative attitude because of their association with the way? Basically you do not have a feeling of worth. You hardly hear a positive voice in it. Sorry I've rambled a bit, but somewhere in the foregoing there is a serious mess needing to be addressed. ram! You know it just seems that individuals who are parents and their natural love for their offspring doesn't kick are perhaps basically already dysfunctional! No need for doctrination or input from external factors, they just are not loving parents...they just don't know how to be loving parents. Sometimes it's learned from childhood, they grew up in abusive homes...good parenting skills wasn't something they grew up with either. It's true you add a somewhat serious somber religion to some folks who have NO spiritual understanding and think it's ALL works, then a dysfunctional parent is apt to be more dysfunctional. I'd have to say that if this writer is a loving parent and grandparent, she's come a long way and I admire her for it.
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Byron
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Post by Byron on Dec 10, 2008 22:27:19 GMT -5
Given the 2x2 Jihad this afternoon on this thread it would be remiss of me not to enter the fray.
There are a number of issues that scream to be put to rest, so here goes gentleman;Clearday wrote about the account published by VOT that it:"was later edited to expand the church in the story and thereby provide some kind of indictment against the church. Only the VOT editors know for sure. The VOT is clearly an anti-2x2 site so this kind of editorial adjustment or encouragement of such would not be unthinkable. Frankly, I think the survivor is being victimized again by her writings being used in anti-2x2 politics." The accusation that VOT has altered any account is simply yellow journalism, and indicates the lengths that some will go to distract attention from the real issues. VOT did not edit this account, nor any other. It is so ironic that further down the thread, Clearday quips,"I'm just telling it the way I see it even though it is at least partly reading between the lines. If I felt the VOT was honest in stating its true agenda, it wouldn't be much of an issue to me." Partially reading between the lines? Please sir. I suggest you try not "reading between the lines". It makes you look foolish.
And if there is any question as to VOT's agenda, read it. There has never been a more complete body of evidence that what we all were/are involved with stinks to high heaven. The victims that are chronicled on VOT merely scratch the surface of the damage done by this cult. By condemning VOT gentleman, you condemn the entity you so blindly defend. This system created all of us, be it good or bad. Your "Way" produced us, and it produced you. VOT is merely the summation of a lot of hurting people.Jesse Lackman added: "If there is not enough objective solid data to form conclusion - don't form one.", and "So step back, investigate VOT from a big picture unemotional point of view and see what you think." Also he said,"I think you owe it to yourself to check out VOT and see what you think." Thanks Jesse, we appreciate your endorsement. Over 21,000 visits in 54 countries have attested to the fact that there is something terribly wrong with this bunch. I have witnessed all my life the ferocity that 2x2's exhibit when their beliefs are questioned.
I am struck by the zeal of defending the indefensible.
Ah, but that is why it is a cult.Clearday retorted, "Your agenda is to lash out and destroy those within the church. The VOT is all about you isn't it?" The church is destroying itself.
It is not about us at all,we are just the messenger.
TO ALL WHO HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO VOT A most sincere thank you to all of those who have bared their most inner pain to thousands. Your bravery is so humbling. We want you to know we are honored to be stewards of these experiences, and how much it means to the thousands who read them. You are helping many.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 10, 2008 22:33:28 GMT -5
Amen to that.
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Post by emy on Dec 10, 2008 22:35:33 GMT -5
<< The victims that are chronicled on VOT merely scratch the surface of the damage done by this cult. >>
That's the point here. The damage done to this particular victim has a very tenuous link to the f&w fellowship in the opinion of several who have posted, not all f&w people.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 10, 2008 22:40:15 GMT -5
So therefore that person should not tell their story... sheesh... this is so typical of what's wrong with the 2x2 church.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 10, 2008 22:59:50 GMT -5
I heard stories of similarity from the Apostolic Christians a few years ago! The younger generations were out to change the whole scenery of the church because of all the negative happenings of the generation before!
I was in the midst of that same group of AC's recently and most of that younger generation were pretty well endowed with the same indoctrination at present. Oh there's a few who wear what they want to wear, cut their hear, wear jewelry, go with outsiders or some married to outsiders AND still attend the AC mtgs. Sound familiar?
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Post by emy on Dec 10, 2008 23:13:30 GMT -5
Of course she can tell her story! and should. What some of us are saying is that it really has little to do with the family having a f&w connection.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 23:16:29 GMT -5
Thanks. The agenda of the VOT is a little clearer now.
I knew that. You were answering for the VOT article with authority.
You accuse me of writing lies, please straighten me out. I'm happy to make corrections.
How do you know? The way Cheryle twisted my posts so badly, I think she is capable of any kind of change. I'm not saying that she changed it. I'm saying that the style of writing indicates that it appears that the beginning and ending of the story was added by the original writer but was not part of the original story.
Now you are accusing me of writing hurtful things about her. Please back it up as no such intention existed. What I wrote about her was quite the opposite with plenty of praise for her. Do you want me to quote all the praise?
Do you just want your accusation to dangle out there hoping it will stick?
Remember, you put up her story on a discussion board. Surely you didn't expect it not to be discussed and the role of the VOT not questioned?
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Post by ilylo on Dec 10, 2008 23:19:38 GMT -5
Of course she can tell her story! and should. What some of us are saying is that it really has little to do with the family having a f&w connection. And some of us understand completely why you think that way. Funny that VOT is shamed for having an agenda.... look at yourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 23:37:05 GMT -5
Jihad.....good one Byron. Inflammatory language like that is in keeping with your web site.
Good strawman Byron. Nowhere did I suggest that the VOT changed the writer's words. Like Cheryle, you're good at twisting my posts to serve your ends. You continue to evade accountability. Like I said, I don't expect you to come clean anytime soon.
Good one Byron. A shot with no substance. Again, in keeping with your web site.
The VOT is a site with one agenda. To publish any material which incites hatred toward the 2x2 church with the intent of convincing members to quit. Any site like that cannot have integrity, it just cannot exist because of what it is founded upon.....blind hatred.
If the church is destroying itself, why does it need your help sir? Be upfront, you know that its destruction desparately needs your help. In your VOT activities, you are a destroyer, not a builder.
By your post it is more clear to me that the site is all about you. You're not helping anyone but yourself. You feel good when you convince someone to turn against the church and you like to feel good.
I want to thank you Byron and Cheryle for clarifying to the readers what the VOT is all about.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 10, 2008 23:47:16 GMT -5
very interesting thread. I've mostly kept quiet, because I didn't bother to read the article...not really interested in anything that meets the criteria to be printed on VOT...but I uphold clearday as the most sane person I've met on this board. Anybody or anything that gets his ire up is surely not worth my time, which reinforces my opinion of VOT.
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Byron
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Post by Byron on Dec 11, 2008 0:57:06 GMT -5
Just a couple things....
Forgive me, I have a correction to make. I stated that 54 countries had visited VOT. That is incorrect.
There have been 70 countries to visit the site, and I believe the 54 number are the current viewing countries. That is a lot of people.
I gotta respond to you one more time Clearday You said: " You continue to evade accountability. Like I said, I don't expect you to come clean anytime soon."
What accountability? Come clean about what? We simply put the poor woman's story on. Whether you, I, or anyone thinks, her story is hers. The 2x2 "link" is one that is very clear to her, and that is all that matters. We do not have to manufacture 2x2 culpability, we have a website full of it.
With that, I must draw this banter to a close.
Goodnight
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Post by wandering on Dec 11, 2008 7:02:04 GMT -5
Clearday
Well put. A foundation of hate is no foundation at all.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 11, 2008 8:30:34 GMT -5
Ah, so a foundation of lies must be solid.
Get real.
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Post by lin on Dec 11, 2008 8:54:39 GMT -5
I think anyone should be able to tell their story. If we believe it so be it. If we don't so be it. Abusive parents are not nice no matter how we tell it,and it's not singular to any culture.
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Post by What Hat on Dec 11, 2008 11:42:42 GMT -5
Jesse, I was literally piggy in the middle in my former employment for nearly 30 years. I have been tested in courts of law many times about my integrity and impartiality on investigating and reporting matters. I was never found wanting even once. I need no lessons. I do not need to investigate VOT. It is not a medium that I am familiar with. From my own experiences and other matters that I am acquaint with, which have some similarities with the account posted on this thread, I can form my own unbiased opinions about the effects that the sect can have on a person. However, I fully appreciate that to reach a vedict on the absolute authenticity of the account itself, the writer and other persons connected with it would require to be examined, unless this has already been done so by impartial persons. This also goes for any culpability in the 2x2 sect. I have no axe to gring with anyone and whilst I too have issues with the sect, I believe in fair and balanced examination. My quest is against practices and beliefs which I believe to be wrong, not the faith itself, or anyone connected with it. I have no issue with the story or its writer. I do with the header, footer and editorial context. Every had a bad headline placed on one of your stories as a reporter? In my reference to "impartial reader" in my post above I excluded myself. You also are not impartial in this context. But one can place one's partiality to one side and still examine an issue from a neutral point of view. I've read a few of your posts here and there, and from my point of view, you don't seem 'impartial' here at all, whatever you may have done in your professional life.
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Post by What Hat on Dec 11, 2008 11:45:25 GMT -5
And yet the author ends with this finale. "I have to ask, and I invite others who read this to ask, what kind of an operation are these people running?" It seems to me the writer sees a clear link (either rightly or wrongly). You're assuming that the writer wrote that. We don't know that since it's NOT in the body of the text.
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Post by What Hat on Dec 11, 2008 11:49:17 GMT -5
And it goes without saying ... when questioned by you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 12:03:50 GMT -5
And yet the author ends with this finale. "I have to ask, and I invite others who read this to ask, what kind of an operation are these people running?" It seems to me the writer sees a clear link (either rightly or wrongly). You're assuming that the writer wrote that. We don't know that since it's NOT in the body of the text. I'll give VOT the benefit of the doubt. I'm taking for granted the writer agreed to, or desired to, have their testimony published on VOT and that they have seen the way it has been published and aaccept it as a true record. Furthermore, one of the VOT posters states the account has not been altered except for spelling, etc. Until there is some information of substance indicating the account has been doctored, I'll take it at face value. However, I would like to see verification if I was to use it in some way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 12:08:47 GMT -5
Jesse, I was literally piggy in the middle in my former employment for nearly 30 years. I have been tested in courts of law many times about my integrity and impartiality on investigating and reporting matters. I was never found wanting even once. I need no lessons. I do not need to investigate VOT. It is not a medium that I am familiar with. From my own experiences and other matters that I am acquaint with, which have some similarities with the account posted on this thread, I can form my own unbiased opinions about the effects that the sect can have on a person. However, I fully appreciate that to reach a vedict on the absolute authenticity of the account itself, the writer and other persons connected with it would require to be examined, unless this has already been done so by impartial persons. This also goes for any culpability in the 2x2 sect. I have no axe to gring with anyone and whilst I too have issues with the sect, I believe in fair and balanced examination. My quest is against practices and beliefs which I believe to be wrong, not the faith itself, or anyone connected with it. I have no issue with the story or its writer. I do with the header, footer and editorial context. Every had a bad headline placed on one of your stories as a reporter? In my reference to "impartial reader" in my post above I excluded myself. You also are not impartial in this context. But one can place one's partiality to one side and still examine an issue from a neutral point of view. I've read a few of your posts here and there, and from my point of view, you don't seem 'impartial' here at all, whatever you may have done in your professional life. What I impart I believe to be true within my knowledge and experience. Whether you regard me as impartial or not, does not alter the facyt that I do my best to be fair to all parties. I was never a reporter. My fact gathering and reporting was subject to far greater scrutiny than that. It required impartiality, fairness, relevancy and accuracy.
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Post by What Hat on Dec 11, 2008 12:17:03 GMT -5
You're assuming that the writer wrote that. We don't know that since it's NOT in the body of the text. I'll give VOT the benefit of the doubt. I'm taking for granted the writer agreed to, or desired to, have their testimony published on VOT and that they have seen the way it has been published and aaccept it as a true record. Furthermore, one of the VOT posters states the account has not been altered except for spelling, etc. Until there is some information of substance indicating the account has been doctored, I'll take it at face value. However, I would like to see verification if I was to use it in some way. There is no "benefit of doubt" to give. VOT has made no assertion that the footer belongs to the writer of the article. It might very well be an editorial insertion, and it certainly sounds and looks like it is. The authenticity of the account is not in question. Nor is VOT's right to publish. What is in question is their editorial wisdom, which, fortunately for those of us in the faith, is not very high. The main point is that from that particular account you can make no valid inference about the group or the movement as a whole. It's a story that could have been told, and has been told, by anyone in any religion, or not in a religion.
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Post by What Hat on Dec 11, 2008 12:22:26 GMT -5
I have no issue with the story or its writer. I do with the header, footer and editorial context. Every had a bad headline placed on one of your stories as a reporter? In my reference to "impartial reader" in my post above I excluded myself. You also are not impartial in this context. But one can place one's partiality to one side and still examine an issue from a neutral point of view. I've read a few of your posts here and there, and from my point of view, you don't seem 'impartial' here at all, whatever you may have done in your professional life. What I impart I believe to be true within my knowledge and experience. Whether you regard me as impartial or not, does not alter the fact that I do my best to be fair to all parties. I was never a reporter. My fact gathering and reporting was subject to far greater scrutiny than that. It required impartiality, fairness, relevancy and accuracy. I don't know what your job was, but if you ran into a case that involved those kinds of judgements involving this religion, would you have to recuse yourself?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 12:26:13 GMT -5
Reply to WHAT's post #81
Clearday wrote about the account published by VOT that it:
"was later edited to expand the church in the story and thereby provide some kind of indictment against the church.
Only the VOT editors know for sure. The VOT is clearly an anti-2x2 site so this kind of editorial adjustment or encouragement of such would not be unthinkable. Frankly, I think the survivor is being victimized again by her writings being used in anti-2x2 politics."
The accusation that VOT has altered any account is simply yellow journalism, and indicates the lengths that some will go to distract attention from the real issues. VOT did not edit this account, nor any other. It is so ironic that further down the thread, Clearday quips
It appears you would like us to believe that VOT has added to the account without providing any information to substantiate that suspicion. The above quote from what appears to be a VOT member, although not dealing specifically with the header or footer suggests, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that you are merely clutching at straws.
This type of tactic makes YOU what you are attempting to accuse VOT of.
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Post by lin on Dec 11, 2008 12:30:10 GMT -5
Why fault VOT anyway, they didn't post this on TMB. The true motive was in the poster on TMB.
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