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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 16:07:33 GMT -5
Clearday, I take "EXCEPTIONAL" exception at your comments. It's simple, Clearday,.........the lady sent me her account to place on "VOT" with the "CLEAR" intention that it would speak to someone who might be going through a similar situation. We do not have to bludgeon the 2x2 church, they have bludgeoned themselves!!! This lady has EVERY right to speak her truth..........there is nothing inappropriate about that, unless you are a Two-by-Two who would like the voices "SILENCED," of the walking wounded who have endured hideous distortions of normalcy in their lives! I think "YOU" need to examine why this lady's account of abuse bothers you so. You sit endlessly on this board with a daily diet of spinning your packaged support of your "only way to heaven", Clearday!! "VOT" is the voice for people who have been ensnared by this cult.........suffering grave emotional harm. It speaks for those who were deprived of the knowledge of God as Loving and Caring..... the normalcy of life, the joys of life, the bounties of life, and the TRUE Christian experience because of those who taught false claims of being the "only way to heaven." Deny it, spin it, twist it, contradict it, refuse it, disaffirm it, rearrange it, or wish it different............your opinion changes nothing. When you have as many hurting voices emanating from one website as there are on "VOT"............they echo how diseased and corrupt the Two-by-Two way truly is!! STOP spinning your accusations and examine why you have a problem with a lady from California sharing her horrific experience growing up in the Two-by-Two's. Cheryle www.veteransoftruth.comGood one Cheryle. You have managed to spin and twist my posts into your own twisted agenda. You have confirmed my suspicion that the VOT has little or no integrity. Your agenda is to lash out and destroy those within the church. The VOT is all about you isn't it?
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Post by Geoff on Dec 10, 2008 16:27:18 GMT -5
Reading this post I see a very sad situation of a family saddled with a verty disturbed husband/father, and a family that suffered much under his twisted behaviour. His membership or otherwise of any church seems almost incidental. There does seem an attempt to tie the two aspects together, but its seems strained.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Dec 10, 2008 16:41:10 GMT -5
In an intellectual way I can see the side where some are trying to say that abuse happens everywhere, not just in some 2x2 homes. BUT what those who say this seem to miss is the 2x2 religion is more than just a religion, it is a way of life. See ram's list a couple of posts back. My house was abusive and some may not call that a 2x2 issue but in a church where you were accepted no matter what you wore, how you did your hair, or how many times you attended per week, etc maybe my parents would have been able to go to an elder or preacher for help. Instead they knew they were being judged and went to great lengths to "appear" acceptable.
At one point when I was about 16 my dad tried to choke me to death on the floor in our kitchen. Finally, at this point, my mom was scared enough he would kill one of us she went to the only authority she thought could help, the workers. Did they counsel my parents? Did they report my father for child abuse or at least assault, did they gather us together and protect us from further abuse? No, I got almost physically forced into a car by the head worker in our state at the time and other workers I had considered friends or at least special and I got the "children obey your parents" speech. Now, the question I ask you is this now a 2x2 matter or an abusive family matter?
What would need to happen for you to consider it a "2x2 matter"? I don't think for most cases you can divorce one from the other...like I said before, for most people being a 2x2 is more than about a religion or a church, it is a way of life.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 16:42:52 GMT -5
Reading this post I see a very sad situation of a family saddled with a verty disturbed husband/father, and a family that suffered much under his twisted behaviour. His membership or otherwise of any church seems almost incidental. There does seem an attempt to tie the two aspects together, but its seems strained. Yes Geoff the 2x2 aspect is indeed incidental to the story, and the connections are only made with the add-ons at the beginning and the end of the story. The real tie-in is not by the writer, but by the fact that it was posted on an anti 2x2 hate site. The connection becomes subtly legitimized by its location. I doubt if the writer ever intended her story to be used in an anti-2x2 political campaign, but there it is.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 16:48:40 GMT -5
And yet the author ends with this finale.
"I have to ask, and I invite others who read this to ask,
what kind of an operation are these people running?"
It seems to me the writer sees a clear link (either rightly or wrongly).
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Dec 10, 2008 17:01:26 GMT -5
now who is the conspiracy theorist....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 17:03:48 GMT -5
Okay Clearday, I'll leave it at that. I'll have an impartial standpoint. The type of questions we are asking would best be answered by the author, but she has been through more than enough already. Even with the best of intentions she could feel her integrity under attack and we would not want to put her through further distress.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Dec 10, 2008 17:07:34 GMT -5
Thanks Clearday. Cheryle, it seems to me you have just confirmed everything Clearday said, what you say and do harms your cause far worse than anything Clearday, me, or any one else could do. It's so sad to watch. Here's an example of the fact people do see exactly what's going on; A co-worker in my office pointed me here...he had found the site after a comment I made during a brief discussion with him about my beliefs. He mentioned that as he read, he wondered what in the world I'd gotten myself into. But the more he read, and reflected on what he knew of me, the less he could take the writings seriously. There's an obvious mismatch between what is said about the Truth and what he knows from observing my life. tltinfo.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4&page=1#66One has to wonder how often VOT, TLT have the exact opposite effect the authors and their cheering sections desire. Maybe it's really no wonder why VOT has < 200 members and the TLT board only 23 members. But this is just my opinion - so carry on however you choose. ~ Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. take care, Jesse
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 17:10:58 GMT -5
now who is the conspiracy theorist.... Me, I'll admit it. I'm just telling it the way I see it even though it is at least partly reading between the lines. If I felt the VOT was honest in stating its true agenda, it wouldn't be much of an issue to me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 17:14:37 GMT -5
Okay Clearday, I'll leave it at that. I'll have an impartial standpoint. The type of questions we are asking would best be answered by the author, but she has been through more than enough already. Even with the best of intentions she could feel her integrity under attack and we would not want to put her through further distress. I suspect that the author has already read this thread and will comment in due course. She sounds like a pretty together person so I hope she can read the comments for what they are.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Dec 10, 2008 17:19:45 GMT -5
I get your point, and I don't know the agenda or if there is an agenda but in the posts on this thread some (not sure if it was you clearday or someone else just posting this really quick) stated that this is just a case of an abusive man, nothing to do with being a 2x2...that there are abusive people everywhere. Do you hold the same view for the situation I posted above?
And the fact that they are having meetings in his home is suspect...would you really put a known child abuser in a position that could be perceived as a position of authority? The answer they don't have other options (other homes) seems weak to me unless they are the ONLY and I mean ONLY people attending that meeting. IF there are others attending, why not in their homes? Where is the Sun morning meeting? Why not have the Wed even mtg the same place? It seems a cop out to me...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 17:19:48 GMT -5
Snap. Her perceptions and experiences are key to establishing a link if any exists.
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Post by gloryintruth on Dec 10, 2008 17:43:53 GMT -5
This is very unfair, and more than just a little ignorant about the man whom it attacks.
Clearday, in my experience, is a very fair and impartial man. He occassionally makes statements that I disagree with strongly, and at other times he makes statements to which I can give a hearty "amen"! This is a man who strives for balance and for honesty in his approach to matters of Faith.
I certainly have never seen Clearday once post an exclusivistic comment on the TMB. To say that he sits on the board "daily" spinning out these kinds of remarks is a plain falsehood: it is an ignorant statement, a twisted statement, and unnecessary.
I do not think Clearday is "bothered" by this account at all. He has been calmly engaging in discussion with other folks, and his opinion has been pretty much shared among exes and Friends alike: a tragic story that really cannot be used as an indictment of the Church.
The real question is: why does scrutiny, discussion, alternative opinions (and the not implausible idea that VOT might have attempted to use this woman's tragic story to further their agenda), cause this response of hurling accusations, inventing fictions about someone, and omniscient speculations as to his motives?
I find your post symbolic, and significant (though not in a particularly positive way). I wonder if others do too.
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Post by dgaab on Dec 10, 2008 17:59:11 GMT -5
I’ve been an ex nearly 30 years, after professing 20 years, but …
The accounts disclosed by the author are sadly despicable, but any direct correlation that the 2x2 faith is the culprit is also distasteful — because its association was insignificant. The problem was the grossly obese and tyrant father, who was noted as in-an-out of the faith, unemployed, ..., which was not due to the 2x2 way's influence — but, candidly, it was a vindictive product of his own twisted and wretched life. Due to his pitying existence he appallingly took it out on his family, but I fail to see any associated 2x2 blame in this pathetic story.
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Post by gloryintruth on Dec 10, 2008 18:04:41 GMT -5
Christianity is meant to be a way of life, isn't it? Isn't the Faith meant to shape every aspect of our thoughts, words, and actions? Or is it really just a bonus extra to attach - to tack on - to whatever our life is already?
This is tragic, and I can sympathise. Truly.
However, let us be a little fairminded too. When Workers go into the ministry, they probably do not envision themselves as possessing the wisdom (and patience of) Solomon, and sorting out domestic affairs which by their very nature are fraught with all kinds of possibilities. It is not so simple as waving a mace, and "fixing" the problem as though the problem were very simple. A family is about emotion, blood, sex, life, death, connections, psychology, neuroses, relationships, money etc. It is innately complex. And I think many of us still see our families through child-like eyes where "IF ONLY" x or y were done, there would be nothing but happiness to follow. I do not think this is particularly realistic.
The Workers, by and large, have no experience in handling domestic dysfunction. To expect them to know what to do when even experts sometimes make mistakes, is a bit unfair. Furthermore, as they blunder through, oftentimes they are either unware of the law, or reticent to involve the law. After all, the Bible says we ought to be able to sort things out as one Christian to another; and I do not think anyone enjoys being involved with the legal authorities.
The truth be told, the Workers were probably frightened. Here they are, just wanting to preach the Gospel, and suddenly being asked to make rulings and decisions that would affect a family. As I said, none of us have the wisdom of Solomon. And it is also the truth that the Workers probably did not have a clue as to what to do. Counselling; psychology; domestic arrangements - they have no formal training in such. Imagine asking some untrained fellow to perform open heart surgery!
We often want to find a locus of blame for our suffering. Even Job, the man of God, tried to blame God for his misery. It gives us a hook for anger; for hatred even; and for all our angst. Like the bullseye on a dartboard we can direct all our hostility toward those people. I think a lot of exes - or at least, a lot on this board - have done this in the past. And I think that there is a lot of effort expended to make the Church as responsible for the suffering as possible. It can then be repudiated, set adrift, along with every other aspect of a sad childhood.
As it is for virtually every other faith that is practiced in a meaningful way. Was CSA the product of Roman Catholic teaching about celibacy of priests? Some assert so. The teaching pre-empted the abuse; the abuse was auxilliary to the teaching. Or does the abuse proceed the teaching, flowing from a damaged personality? Does an abuser merely appropriate teaching and twist it into a contorted shape to enable him \ her to manipulate and hurt other people?
It is a chicken and egg scenario: Teaching ---------> leads to ------------------> abuse Abuser -----------> misuses ------------------> teaching
I do not think the former can ever be demonstrated.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Dec 10, 2008 18:15:56 GMT -5
Thank you , Priscilla. Snap. Her perceptions and experiences are key to establishing a link if any exists. Key to an opinion about the link if the analysis is subjective, key to truth about the link if the analysis is objective and honest. Was it the fault of the fellowship David had with God, that David got angry enough to want go to Nabel and destroy all that pisseth against the wall? Was it the fault of the fellowship David had with God, that David took Bathsheba and later had her husband killed? Was it the fault of the fellowship Judas had with Jesus that caused Judas to betray him? Etc. Etc. Using the same subjective reasoning that ties this father's/husband's abuse to any fellowship would require one to say yes - but the objective truth of the matter is sin and faith are seperate, mercy rejoiceth against judgment, that's why grace activated by repentance, loving, and forgiving others is so wonderful. take care, Jesse
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Post by What Hat on Dec 10, 2008 18:17:06 GMT -5
Even if you concede that the man should not have the Wednesday night study, such an error hardly amounts to a condemnation of the entire religion.
Is the concluding comment, "I have to ask, and I invite others who read this to ask, what kind of an operation are these people running?" an editorial insertion by the website or the conclusion of the writer. Its placement makes the comment look like the final conclusion of the writer, but it doesn't seem like this is what the story is even about. If I was the writer and it was not part of what I had written, I would take serious umbrage at being co-opted in this way. The last line in the body of the story is fair comment, however. It relates only to the situation at hand, and doesn't leap to the wildly general accusation in the footer.
I'm quite appreciative of such shoddy work as it makes the militance and true purpose of the publisher's pogrom self-evident to the impartial reader.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 18:33:02 GMT -5
The truth is that few who are commenting here on this thread are impartial. The real truth of the matter lies with the author, her sister and any psychologists, counsellors involved.
I don't know anything about VOT, but it sure has brought out the wolves.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Dec 10, 2008 18:38:16 GMT -5
The truth is that few who are commenting here on this thread are impartial. The real truth of the matter lies with the author, her sister and any psychologists, counsellors involved. I don't know anything about VOT, but it sure has brought out the wolves. Well, I think you owe it to yourself to check out VOT and see what you think. "Condemnation without investigation is ignorance."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 18:44:30 GMT -5
LAG, your story has an important 2x2 component. You reported abuse to the workers and they were recalcitrant in doing nothing. That was terrible and I believe does reflect a common reluctance to do anything years ago. I don't doubt this was not the first time and won't be the last time. I will say though that the chances of them doing nothing today is much smaller. I think the WINGS site can be thanked for being part of the reason for that.
We don't know the full story of the meeting situation and we don't know what the workers know or think they know so it's difficult to second-guess the decision. The Wed mtg may consist of two or three other adult people and no children for all we know. Sunday mtg could be 60 miles away.
Still, yes, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of this man hosting a meeting. Meeting hosts are typically accorded more credibility than regular meeting goers as you correctly point out so this imputes a slight aura of authority on this man. That's like giving matches to a pyromaniac.
I'm not an excomm type of person at all but I would have trouble just meeting with this man in any home without the church hearing a confession and accepting repentence in this man which would include making things right with his victims.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 10, 2008 18:45:47 GMT -5
Clearday: You couldn't be further from the truth...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 18:46:00 GMT -5
Jesse my dear man. I'm not doubting your word. I'm doubting your impartiality.
Answer me honestly. Am I wrong ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 18:52:49 GMT -5
Clearday: You couldn't be further from the truth... About what? Are you going to start publishing pro-2x2 stories on the VOT where people tell about their positive experiences in the 2x2 church? Let's be honest here Cherie. The VOT will never post stories that reflect good experiences in the 2x2 church.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Dec 10, 2008 19:16:39 GMT -5
Jesse my dear man. I'm not doubting your word. I'm doubting your impartiality. Answer me honestly. Am I wrong ? Ram my dear man. I'm not doubting your word. I'm doubting your impartiality. Answer me honestly. Am I wrong ? ~ My answer is - yes. I've read nearly all the Ayn Rand books - even the ones on straight objectivist philosophy like "The Virtue of Selfishness". My dad taught Ayn Rand at the University level - there was no way to get by with subjective, emotional, thinking/reasoning at our house when I was growing up. We learned to investigate everything from an unemotional and objective third person point of view and let the conclusions fall where they may - if an honest conclusion can actually be reached. If there is not enough objective solid data to form a conclusion - don't form one. So step back, investigate VOT from a big picture unemotional point of view and see what you think. Jesse
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 19:31:52 GMT -5
Jesse, I was literally piggy in the middle in my former employment for nearly 30 years. I have been tested in courts of law many times about my integrity and impartiality on investigating and reporting matters. I was never found wanting even once. I need no lessons.
I do not need to investigate VOT. It is not a medium that I am familiar with. From my own experiences and other matters that I am acquaint with, which have some similarities with the account posted on this thread, I can form my own unbiased opinions about the effects that the sect can have on a person. However, I fully appreciate that to reach a vedict on the absolute authenticity of the account itself, the writer and other persons connected with it would require to be examined, unless this has already been done so by impartial persons. This also goes for any culpability in the 2x2 sect.
I have no axe to gring with anyone and whilst I too have issues with the sect, I believe in fair and balanced examination. My quest is against practices and beliefs which I believe to be wrong, not the faith itself, or anyone connected with it.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Dec 10, 2008 19:34:42 GMT -5
All the worker(s) had to do was say, "this is more than we know how to deal with" and refer them to someone more able...they tried to control, yet again. And they were very arrogant and judgemental in the process, thus reinforcing their "God" given authority over the people they were claiming to lead into Heaven. It is a lethal combination. Maybe they were scared, maybe they were out of their depth and knew it, maybe they regreted being in a position to have to deal with such issues, but they sure didn't act that way, no they seemed quite in control and relished their positions. As far as what I was expecting looking through child-eyes, I wasn't looking for a happy, dissapointment free childhood, I was only looking for love and approval, just once I would have liked to know that I was appreciated and love. Just once I would have liked to know that I mattered. Maybe the occasional physical abuse wouldn't have been such a big deal if it was balanced with some sort of approval. This was impossible to earn because just like they were trying to earn their salvation, I was trying to earn their approval. This was another side effect of "not measuring up" to the expectations of the 2x2 system. Extreme and unattainable expectations. I recently heard a head workers sermon at a funeral. His whole message was chosing "the better part". Not one time in his whole sermon did he refer to the finished work of Jesus and any goodness that we posess is only because of what Jesus can do through us. His whole time was filled with what we must do, choices we must make...it is no wonder so many are "failing" all the time. It is not something we can do in our own strength. If it weren't for the side of the fence you are so tenderly defending, I would be amazed at your change in tone compared to a week or so ago. I do appreciate the softer gentler version even if I do not agree with you. And, yes, Christianity is a way of life and our Faith in JESUS should shape our life, that is VERY different than the 2x2 religion. Christianity is meant to be a way of life, isn't it? Isn't the Faith meant to shape every aspect of our thoughts, words, and actions? Or is it really just a bonus extra to attach - to tack on - to whatever our life is already? This is tragic, and I can sympathise. Truly. However, let us be a little fairminded too. When Workers go into the ministry, they probably do not envision themselves as possessing the wisdom (and patience of) Solomon, and sorting out domestic affairs which by their very nature are fraught with all kinds of possibilities. It is not so simple as waving a mace, and "fixing" the problem as though the problem were very simple. A family is about emotion, blood, sex, life, death, connections, psychology, neuroses, relationships, money etc. It is innately complex. And I think many of us still see our families through child-like eyes where "IF ONLY" x or y were done, there would be nothing but happiness to follow. I do not think this is particularly realistic. The Workers, by and large, have no experience in handling domestic dysfunction. To expect them to know what to do when even experts sometimes make mistakes, is a bit unfair. Furthermore, as they blunder through, oftentimes they are either unware of the law, or reticent to involve the law. After all, the Bible says we ought to be able to sort things out as one Christian to another; and I do not think anyone enjoys being involved with the legal authorities. The truth be told, the Workers were probably frightened. Here they are, just wanting to preach the Gospel, and suddenly being asked to make rulings and decisions that would affect a family. As I said, none of us have the wisdom of Solomon. And it is also the truth that the Workers probably did not have a clue as to what to do. Counselling; psychology; domestic arrangements - they have no formal training in such. Imagine asking some untrained fellow to perform open heart surgery! We often want to find a locus of blame for our suffering. Even Job, the man of God, tried to blame God for his misery. It gives us a hook for anger; for hatred even; and for all our angst. Like the bullseye on a dartboard we can direct all our hostility toward those people. I think a lot of exes - or at least, a lot on this board - have done this in the past. And I think that there is a lot of effort expended to make the Church as responsible for the suffering as possible. It can then be repudiated, set adrift, along with every other aspect of a sad childhood. As it is for virtually every other faith that is practiced in a meaningful way. Was CSA the product of Roman Catholic teaching about celibacy of priests? Some assert so. The teaching pre-empted the abuse; the abuse was auxilliary to the teaching. Or does the abuse proceed the teaching, flowing from a damaged personality? Does an abuser merely appropriate teaching and twist it into a contorted shape to enable him \ her to manipulate and hurt other people? It is a chicken and egg scenario: Teaching ---------> leads to ------------------> abuse Abuser -----------> misuses ------------------> teaching I do not think the former can ever be demonstrated.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 10, 2008 19:51:41 GMT -5
CD RE: About what? Are you going to start publishing pro-2x2 stories on the VOT where people tell about their positive experiences in the 2x2 church? Let's be honest here Cherie. The VOT will never post stories that reflect good experiences in the 2x2 church.
I see no reason why VOT should publish positive 2x2 experiences. They dont claim to be an equal opportunity site. They've never held themselves out to be so. VOT was formed to give people the opportunity to tell the OTHER SIDE - the other half that doesnt get told in meetings. They aren't violating any of their standards that I can know of.
Positive experiences can be aired in meetings and anyone can post them here on TMB who cares to. And there is nothing to stop the F&W from putting up their own website geared to positive experiences/articles.
BTW, as I've stated before: I'm not the Admin of VOT or TLT--I dont have any control over what gets published on those sites. Our names are spelled similarly: Cheryle and Cherie--but we are NOT the same person.
But thats not what I was referring to. I have known this woman for several years. Much of what you've written about this woman's story "couldnt be further from the truth..."
And I know VOT would not/did not change someone's story sent to them with the direction to use it exactly as is.
And I'm about 99.9% certain the woman will not be coming to this board--I dont think she even knows it exists. I'm sure wouldnt be about to encourage her to visit here--not with all the hurtful things said. Is that your agenda?? For her to be so hurt she pulls her story off VOT?
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Dec 10, 2008 19:54:08 GMT -5
Thank you LAG, your story has an important 2x2 component. You reported abuse to the workers and they were recalcitrant in doing nothing. That was terrible and I believe does reflect a common reluctance to do anything years ago. I don't doubt this was not the first time and won't be the last time. I will say though that the chances of them doing nothing today is much smaller. I think the WINGS site can be thanked for being part of the reason for that. We don't know the full story of the meeting situation and we don't know what the workers know or think they know so it's difficult to second-guess the decision. The Wed mtg may consist of two or three other adult people and no children for all we know. Sunday mtg could be 60 miles away. Still, yes, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of this man hosting a meeting. Meeting hosts are typically accorded more credibility than regular meeting goers as you correctly point out so this imputes a slight aura of authority on this man. That's like giving matches to a pyromaniac. I'm not an excomm type of person at all but I would have trouble just meeting with this man in any home without the church hearing a confession and accepting repentence in this man which would include making things right with his victims.
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