Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 6:52:50 GMT -5
I note a news article that the Victorian Government has announced that it will hold a Parliamentary Inquiry into CSA in ALL Religious organisations.
The inquiry is charged with examining policies adopted by religious and other non- government organisations to handle CSA complaints. It is an Australian first for such an inquiry.
It will be interesting to see the policy that the 2x2's come up with.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 6:59:54 GMT -5
I note a news article that the Victorian Government has announced that it will hold a Parliamentary Inquiry into CSA in ALL Religious organisations. The inquiry is charged with examining policies adopted by religious and other non- government organisations to handle CSA complaints. It is an Australian first for such an inquiry. It will be interesting to see the policy that the 2x2's come up with. If called into the inquiry, it will be difficult for the F&Ws to avoid this by claiming they are not a legally recognized religious organization.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 7:43:01 GMT -5
The importance of these issues have been brought to the workers' notice many times by various means, yet many continue to live on another planet. They have taken the "in the world, but not of the world" to mean they are not part of the "real world." More and more they are being brought down to earth with a bump!
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Apr 17, 2012 8:56:53 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 17, 2012 9:26:18 GMT -5
I note a news article that the Victorian Government has announced that it will hold a Parliamentary Inquiry into CSA in ALL Religious organisations. The inquiry is charged with examining policies adopted by religious and other non- government organisations to handle CSA complaints. It is an Australian first for such an inquiry. It will be interesting to see the policy that the 2x2's come up with. If called into the inquiry, it will be difficult for the F&Ws to avoid this by claiming they are not a legally recognized religious organization. I've heard this "we are not an organization" quite often. We have no collective responsibility, we are just a group that meets informally for a spiritual purpose and we are bound together by God, but not by man. I believe that this is the line of thinking. What it leads to is a "circle the wagons" response to almost any issue that arises among the friends. We'll deal with the problem internally and in our own way. Many of life's problems are exceptionally difficult and intractable. What's been proven over time is that to wall oneself off from society, from humanity, and do it in you own way, is not going to work. The problems of this life are going to sneak around, through or under the wall, and find a noticeable lack of resistance once they are inside. The solution that Jesus brought involved being "in the world", although not "of the world". Of being tested, tried and tempted, of learning how to deal with situations and respond to them, albeit to respond in a uniquely Christ-like way. While the friends live "in the world", the workers do not, and that is a large part of the problem. Perhaps they will find a way to adapt, but there appears to be an issue with the structure. The workers do not listen even to the friends. Here is a question ... would the workers volunteer to participate in this inquiry? If not, why not? If so, why so? This inquiry could be a very good thing, because it may open some doors that previously were closed.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Apr 17, 2012 10:27:10 GMT -5
I note a news article that the Victorian Government has announced that it will hold a Parliamentary Inquiry into CSA in ALL Religious organisations. The inquiry is charged with examining policies adopted by religious and other non- government organisations to handle CSA complaints. It is an Australian first for such an inquiry. It will be interesting to see the policy that the 2x2's come up with. I know that there are people there that are making sure that the truth fellowship is going to be included in this inquiry, and are contacting those who will be conducting this investigation. Interestingly enough, it is professing folks that are the ones asking for this to take place, as they have lost confidence in some of the senior workers who should be dealing with issues concerning CSA.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 10:44:59 GMT -5
If called into the inquiry, it will be difficult for the F&Ws to avoid this by claiming they are not a legally recognized religious organization. I've heard this "we are not an organization" quite often. We have no collective responsibility, we are just a group that meets informally for a spiritual purpose and we are bound together by God, but not by man. I believe that this is the line of thinking. What it leads to is a "circle the wagons" response to almost any issue that arises among the friends. We'll deal with the problem internally and in our own way. Many of life's problems are exceptionally difficult and intractable. What's been proven over time is that to wall oneself off from society, from humanity, and do it in you own way, is not going to work. The problems of this life are going to sneak around, through or under the wall, and find a noticeable lack of resistance once they are inside. The solution that Jesus brought involved being "in the world", although not "of the world". Of being tested, tried and tempted, of learning how to deal with situations and respond to them, albeit to respond in a uniquely Christ-like way. While the friends live "in the world", the workers do not, and that is a large part of the problem. Perhaps they will find a way to adapt, but there appears to be an issue with the structure. The workers do not listen even to the friends. Here is a question ... would the workers volunteer to participate in this inquiry? If not, why not? If so, why so? This inquiry could be a very good thing, because it may open some doors that previously were closed. And the problems of the separation doctrine are nothing new either. My dad brought this up to me when I was a teen. He pointed out that Jesus prayed that his people not be "taken out of the world", but would be "kept in the world". There is a pretty clear implication that Jesus never envisioned a walled-off group with very little contact or interaction with the full society around them. The fundamental problem is that rather than "be a light to the world", the overriding doctrine is "stay away from the world in case they put out your light". Because of that, we will never see the workers volunteer to be part of an Inquiry. If called, they will comply but some will comply as requested, others will comply reluctantly. If called, here is what I wonder: will their yea be yea and nay,nay? or will they approach the issues like our friend Todd does? Todd's approach is remarkably common among the F&Ws but with that approach, they will get eaten for breakfast in a formal inquiry. I think the Evan Jones statement and the George Walker statement in WWII have considerable credibility and a tone of honesty about them. Willis Propp's legal testimony wasn't quite so candid and straightforward although, if I recall, he managed to avoid being directly untruthful. What will the testimony of Messrs Leitch and Robinson sound like?
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 17, 2012 11:04:40 GMT -5
If called into the inquiry, it will be difficult for the F&Ws to avoid this by claiming they are not a legally recognized religious organization. I've heard this "we are not an organization" quite often. We have no collective responsibility, we are just a group that meets informally for a spiritual purpose and we are bound together by God, but not by man. I believe that this is the line of thinking. What it leads to is a "circle the wagons" response to almost any issue that arises among the friends. We'll deal with the problem internally and in our own way. Many of life's problems are exceptionally difficult and intractable. What's been proven over time is that to wall oneself off from society, from humanity, and do it in you own way, is not going to work. The problems of this life are going to sneak around, through or under the wall, and find a noticeable lack of resistance once they are inside. The solution that Jesus brought involved being "in the world", although not "of the world". Of being tested, tried and tempted, of learning how to deal with situations and respond to them, albeit to respond in a uniquely Christ-like way. While the friends live "in the world", the workers do not, and that is a large part of the problem. Perhaps they will find a way to adapt, but there appears to be an issue with the structure. The workers do not listen even to the friends. Here is a question ... would the workers volunteer to participate in this inquiry? If not, why not? If so, why so? This inquiry could be a very good thing, because it may open some doors that previously were closed. I think you have valid thoughts here....I see the ruling workers still saying much the same thing and that is "this way has always worked or our fellowship, so why change it?" This being the same thing as the workers not being able to "fit in" the world but not yet be "of the world"....the workers are definitely isolated from the world and I think this impairs them from obtaining more satisfactory mission work OF those who are outsiders, knowing nothing about the fellowship...workers are much out of touch....the young workers going in, have a bit of ability to touch those outsiders but they are often repressed from that by their older companions and as time goes on, it isn't long that even the younger workers are unable to relate to outsiders. This has to be a part of the problem for the discontinuing of bringing in outsiders instead of always preaching the gospel to the professing folks' children..... That's a reason to re-establish "batches" for the workers so that they are in a community without the friends and they start making themselves known to their neighbors who are NOT of the fellowship.....it works for other "evangelist" still...but when people isolate themselves....that almost comes down to the problem that marital abusers often "isolate" their spouse and this is part of the abuse..... So is non-sociableness an abuse of itself? Or is isolation and abuse altogether? Seems like it is, those who are isolated seem to suffer more mental/nervous problems!
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Apr 17, 2012 11:07:24 GMT -5
I note a news article that the Victorian Government has announced that it will hold a Parliamentary Inquiry into CSA in ALL Religious organisations. The inquiry is charged with examining policies adopted by religious and other non- government organisations to handle CSA complaints. It is an Australian first for such an inquiry. It will be interesting to see the policy that the 2x2's come up with. I know that there are people there that are making sure that the truth fellowship is going to be included in this inquiry, and are contacting those who will be conducting this investigation. Interestingly enough, it is professing folks that are the ones asking for this to take place, as they have lost confidence in some of the senior workers who should be dealing with issues concerning CSA. Thanks, Scott. for this info....it's encouraging that those friends in that area are taking ahold of these things instead of letting the status quo continue as it has and been harmful to victims. Maybe put this inquiry in the prayer list?
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 17, 2012 14:36:24 GMT -5
I think the Evan Jones statement and the George Walker statement in WWII have considerable credibility and a tone of honesty about them. I did wonder about the following paragraph from Evan Jones's statement: =================================================================== Our organisation has no restrictions on music, dancing, television, sport, food or anything else for that matter. We do not exercise any authority over an individuals faith. However a member of our faith would not be interested in Music, Television or the like, as life is complete without them.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Apr 17, 2012 15:02:13 GMT -5
I think the Evan Jones statement and the George Walker statement in WWII have considerable credibility and a tone of honesty about them. I did wonder about the following paragraph from Evan Jones's statement: =================================================================== Our organisation has no restrictions on music, dancing, television, sport, food or anything else for that matter. We do not exercise any authority over an individuals faith. However a member of our faith would not be interested in Music, Television or the like, as life is complete without them. It is a disingenuous answer, especially given the context of the disposition- the suicide of a couple of teenagers due to the strictness against such things. It is also a slap in their face. Evidently they weren't true members- cause true members wouldn't be interested in music, television, or the such. I truly hope that one day the workers will understand how much harm this kind of passive-aggressive language hurts families.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 15:31:23 GMT -5
I think the Evan Jones statement and the George Walker statement in WWII have considerable credibility and a tone of honesty about them. I did wonder about the following paragraph from Evan Jones's statement: =================================================================== Our organisation has no restrictions on music, dancing, television, sport, food or anything else for that matter. We do not exercise any authority over an individuals faith. However a member of our faith would not be interested in Music, Television or the like, as life is complete without them. I agree with sacerdotal, "disingenuous" is probably the best word for the above. It does skirt the edges of a lie but falls a bit short of it. There have been many many preachings that I have heard in conventions about how a person's faith led to be restrict themselves from the above list. I think a lot of people believe it, and perhaps Mr.Jones did too. It's the "unrules". We have no rules until you break one. We have no restrictions on doing any of them but if you do them, we will no longer consider you a true member of our faith. That message seems loud and clear in the above.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on Apr 17, 2012 15:44:42 GMT -5
Wasn't there some kind of guidelines set up for the workers, via Scott and others recently? Was there not something done about what steps are taken if someone comes forward with claims of being SA.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 17, 2012 15:53:38 GMT -5
I think the Evan Jones statement and the George Walker statement in WWII have considerable credibility and a tone of honesty about them. I did wonder about the following paragraph from Evan Jones's statement: =================================================================== Our organisation has no restrictions on music, dancing, television, sport, food or anything else for that matter. We do not exercise any authority over an individuals faith. However a member of our faith would not be interested in Music, Television or the like, as life is complete without them. CD's statement about being encouraged comes to mind. How did that go again, CD?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 16:04:01 GMT -5
I did wonder about the following paragraph from Evan Jones's statement: =================================================================== Our organisation has no restrictions on music, dancing, television, sport, food or anything else for that matter. We do not exercise any authority over an individuals faith. However a member of our faith would not be interested in Music, Television or the like, as life is complete without them. CD's statement about being encouragement comes to mind. How did that go again, CD? I'm stumped, I need more clues!
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 17, 2012 16:54:29 GMT -5
CD's statement about being encouragement comes to mind. How did that go again, CD? I'm stumped, I need more clues! I think it must have been a sentence you just tossed off, but it stuck with me. Something about encouraging people but if they're not encouraged by the encouragements then we'll encourage them some more. I forget exactly how that went but it was quite funny at the time.
|
|
|
Post by DumSpiroSpero on Apr 17, 2012 17:03:11 GMT -5
I'm stumped, I need more clues! I think it must have been a sentence you just tossed off, but it stuck with me. Something about encouraging people but if they're not encouraged by the encouragements then we'll encourage them some more. I forget exactly how that went but it was quite funny at the time. Or... The layoffs will continue until morale improves! (the excommunications will continue until compliance is achieved)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 18:16:00 GMT -5
I'm stumped, I need more clues! I think it must have been a sentence you just tossed off, but it stuck with me. Something about encouraging people but if they're not encouraged by the encouragements then we'll encourage them some more. I forget exactly how that went but it was quite funny at the time. Ok, I vaguely remember that one. Yeah, it was meant to be humorous....with a point. I'll probably never be able to re-create that sentence though!
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 17, 2012 19:23:48 GMT -5
I think it must have been a sentence you just tossed off, but it stuck with me. Something about encouraging people but if they're not encouraged by the encouragements then we'll encourage them some more. I forget exactly how that went but it was quite funny at the time. Ok, I vaguely remember that one. Yeah, it was meant to be humorous....with a point. I'll probably never be able to re-create that sentence though! Well, it's in there somewhere. I even Google'd for it without success.
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Apr 17, 2012 19:43:04 GMT -5
I did wonder about the following paragraph from Evan Jones's statement: =================================================================== Our organisation has no restrictions on music, dancing, television, sport, food or anything else for that matter. We do not exercise any authority over an individuals faith. However a member of our faith would not be interested in Music, Television or the like, as life is complete without them. Even though it may be considered bad form here on TMB to describe experiences that fail to substantiate the claims of certain posters, I will say unequivocally and without hesitation that the above statement was true and valid in my personal experience living in the Mid-Atlantic section of the United States and traveling through many of the other states between the years 1945 (year of my birth) and 1963 (year I chose to leave the F&W Fellowship). Specifically, Music: I listened to popular music in the presence of my family, friends (school friends and professing friends), teachers, and neighbors. I have no specific recollection of listening to popular music in the presence of a worker. I listened to music on car radios, transistor radios, phonographs (33rpm, 45rmp and 78rpm) and jukeboxes. I took piano lessons in elementary school, attempted to learn clarinet in middle school, and learned trombone in high school. Was a member of a high school marching band that participated in half-time activities at one University of Maryland football game. During my junior year in high school, a worker took me aside (quietly and kindly) and suggested that I might want to reconsider my participation in the marching band. Several months later I made the decision to stop playing the trombone in our high school marching band. The worker’s suggestion was a contributing factor in my decision but was not the determinative factor. Dance: Throughout my childhood and early adulthood, I did not dance. I did attend my Senior Prom (I was professing at the time). I did not dance at the Prom. Television: Our family did not have a television in the home. I often watched television with neighborhood friends with the full knowledge of my parents. Although I have no specific recollection, I may well have watched television at a friend’s house while workers were visiting our home. I have no recollection of discussing television programming with a worker. Sports: I have always enjoyed sports even though I am not athletically gifted. I played backyard baseball, football, volleyball, badminton, bike-riding (pedal bikes, Scott), fishing, ice skating and roller skating and later lacrosse. I engaged in each of these activities with friends (professing and non-professing). I engaged in some of these activities with workers (badminton, bike-riding, fishing and ice skating). I was sports editor of the high school paper and attended all games home and away. My father and I frequently listened to baseball games on the car radio in the front yard of our home. My father and I attended professional baseball games (Baltimore Orioles playing in Memorial Stadium in Baltimore, Maryland). I also attended a couple of games with neighborhood friends at the same stadium. I used to enjoy going to the “Donkey-Baseball” games when they came to town once or twice each summer. While professing I built a Heath transistor radio on our dining room table in plain sight of my parents and any/all who visited our home. I listened to World Series games on this transistor radio while sitting in class in high school (Oops, sorry Miss Bootsy). Food: I am unaware of any dietary restrictions, food choice restrictions nor food consumption restrictions placed on myself or my family beyond budget, healthy balance and familial food preferences conditioned by cultural heritage. Other: I recall norms of behavior that were generally accepted by members of the Fellowship community in which I was B&R that included dress, personal appearance, language, reverence for scripture and religious practices, respect for others and compassion for others. These norms were generally accepted by all. The limits of these norms were frequently tested by some, particularly adolescents including myself. The consequence of adherence to the behavior norms was to set myself apart from my schoolmates and peers in some respects but also contributed to foundations of friendship with schoolmates which persist to this day and will be celebrated once again this summer when I attend my 50th High School Reunion. The choices I made as a young person growing up in the F&W Fellowship were influenced and governed by many factors including teachings of my family, friends and workers, examples by my family, friends and workers, school teachers, personal experiences, peer pressure, social acceptance and a sense of personal well being. The hallmark of these choices was always “moderation (balance) in all things” a lesson learned from my father. Throughout my career and life experiences, reflections on my childhood rearing consistently leave me with a sense of excellent preparation for life, a sense of fulfillment and mostly pleasant memories. During this period of my life I first developed my sense of spiritual awareness. In my experience there is nothing disingenuous nor skirting the edges of a lie stated or implied by the putative statement of the individual identified as Evan Jones. I did not observe meaningful exceptions to my experiences among any of the members of the F&W Fellowships that I knew during the period specified above. Different individuals made different choices with respect to all of the categories listed above but I have absolutely no evidence suggesting any of those choices were coerced in any manner different from the examples described above. There will be those who will choose to characterize these descriptions of my personal experiences as naïve, immature, nostalgic, unrepresentative, and/or statistically irrelevant. Some may choose to minimize my experiences as highly unusual based on the prevalent narratives found here on TMB. Some may choose to dismiss these experiences because they are different from their own. Some may find that the experiences I describe are inconsistent with some grander agenda of their own. I can only attest to the truth and validity of the lived experiences described above.
|
|
|
Post by spiders on Apr 17, 2012 19:44:57 GMT -5
I note a news article that the Victorian Government has announced that it will hold a Parliamentary Inquiry into CSA in ALL Religious organisations. The inquiry is charged with examining policies adopted by religious and other non- government organisations to handle CSA complaints. It is an Australian first for such an inquiry. It will be interesting to see the policy that the 2x2's come up with. The link below is to an article in today's Age Newspaper about the proposed inquiry. The terms of reference are particularly telling for the 2x2 group as they have no protocols in place to deal with abuse within the church. In fact the overseer here has refused to even consider the recent CSA Guidelines that were prepared by members of the church. Lets hope that this inquiry will be properly resourced to deal with the huge issue of abuse within the churches including the F&W. www.theage.com.au/victoria/church-inquiry-not-enough-20120417-1x5p7.html
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 20:51:42 GMT -5
Thanks spiders for your post. Keep us up to date with progress or lack of it. Also do you think they will work out how a convicted pedaphile is able to appeal the jail sentence, and with the help of money ( Whose money) use professional people to virtually keep him out of jail.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Apr 17, 2012 20:54:59 GMT -5
I note a news article that the Victorian Government has announced that it will hold a Parliamentary Inquiry into CSA in ALL Religious organisations. The inquiry is charged with examining policies adopted by religious and other non- government organisations to handle CSA complaints. It is an Australian first for such an inquiry. It will be interesting to see the policy that the 2x2's come up with. The link below is to an article in today's Age Newspaper about the proposed inquiry. The terms of reference are particularly telling for the 2x2 group as they have no protocols in place to deal with abuse within the church. In fact the overseer here has refused to even consider the recent CSA Guidelines that were prepared by members of the church. Lets hope that this inquiry will be properly resourced to deal with the huge issue of abuse within the churches including the F&W. www.theage.com.au/victoria/church-inquiry-not-enough-20120417-1x5p7.html In fact the overseer here has refused to even consider the recent CSA Guidelines that were prepared by members of the church.Shows just how much some overseers value the members of the church doesn't it? The church members should fire these guys that refuse to look out for the welfare of those who would be the future of the church.
|
|
|
Post by emmarr75 on Apr 18, 2012 0:45:39 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see the outcome of this enquiry. Hopefully it is an outcome for the friends and workers which leads to the adoption of some very clear guidelines of how to deal with CSA and support victims of CSA.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Apr 18, 2012 1:49:00 GMT -5
I've heard this "we are not an organization" quite often. We have no collective responsibility, we are just a group that meets informally for a spiritual purpose and we are bound together by God, but not by man. Try telling that to the Jordans who received a phone call from Jim Knipe informing them there would be no more meetings in their home and they were not allowed to go to meetings anywhere in the world. Try telling it to Steve Blubaugh who was forbidden to attend meetings in a foreign country solely on the ground that he was forbidden from attending meetings in America.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 7:28:08 GMT -5
I've heard this "we are not an organization" quite often. We have no collective responsibility, we are just a group that meets informally for a spiritual purpose and we are bound together by God, but not by man. Try telling that to the Jordans who received a phone call from Jim Knipe informing them there would be no more meetings in their home and they were not allowed to go to meetings anywhere in the world. Try telling it to Steve Blubaugh who was forbidden to attend meetings in a foreign country solely on the ground that he was forbidden from attending meetings in America. Then there is the couple who were banned from attending fellowship meeting in North America because it was their second marriage, moved to Australia, accepted in the meetings there for months until they were compelled to comply with the North American ruling. No rules? No organization? Just a quaint little informal group of a few people? What is right though, there are some people out there who believe there is no organization.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Apr 18, 2012 7:32:53 GMT -5
Try telling that to the Jordans who received a phone call from Jim Knipe informing them there would be no more meetings in their home and they were not allowed to go to meetings anywhere in the world. Try telling it to Steve Blubaugh who was forbidden to attend meetings in a foreign country solely on the ground that he was forbidden from attending meetings in America. Then there is the couple who were banned from attending fellowship meeting in North America because it was their second marriage, moved to Australia, accepted in the meetings there for months until they were compelled to comply with the North American ruling. No rules? No organization? Just a quaint little informal group of a few people? What is right though, there are some people out there who believe there is no organization. It depends on what your definition of 'is' is.
|
|
|
Post by DumSpiroSpero on Apr 18, 2012 7:53:25 GMT -5
Cherie I know the first cousins of these children. The wife of one is a member of TLC. There was no suggestion of CSA at the time, or to my knowledge since. I realise that given the recent events in Victoria it may be tempting to look at CSA as a motivation for the children's suicides, but I think it's not wise to make this type of suggestion without checking with those close to the children.
I believe that the influence of Cobain and Nirvana would be closer to the truth. Even the MO (firearm) was the same as Cobain's suicide...
|
|