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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 7:57:39 GMT -5
Then there is the couple who were banned from attending fellowship meeting in North America because it was their second marriage, moved to Australia, accepted in the meetings there for months until they were compelled to comply with the North American ruling. No rules? No organization? Just a quaint little informal group of a few people? What is right though, there are some people out there who believe there is no organization. It depends on what your definition of 'is' is. I suppose, but the US government seems to know an "it" organization when they see one. The F&W church was determined to be an religious organization in 1946 by the Federal Government and it was ruled by a court of law again in 2012 that "it" is a religious organization. For the Australian Inquiry, the fact that the group is an organization is confirmed in a sworn statement by Evan Jones, late overseer of Victoria: "Our organisation is financially well off." "Our organisation has no restrictions.... " The fact that they are an organization in Victoria which has no history of proper handling of CSA crimes is something that an Inquiry needs to look at so that they can legislate rogue groups like this who cannot do what is right on their own.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 8:12:10 GMT -5
It depends on what your definition of 'is' is. I suppose, but the US government seems to know an "it" organization when they see one. The F&W church was determined to be an religious organization in 1946 by the Federal Government and it was ruled by a court of law again in 2012 that "it" is a religious organization. For the Australian Inquiry, the fact that the group is an organization is confirmed in a sworn statement by Evan Jones, late overseer of Victoria: "Our organisation is financially well off." "Our organisation has no restrictions.... " The fact that they are an organization in Victoria which has no history of proper handling of CSA crimes is something that an Inquiry needs to look at so that they can legislate rogue groups like this who cannot do what is right on their own. This echoes my sentiments entirely. I have taken the liberty of assuming Spiders has informed us correctly with regards to the attitude of the workers in Victoria. With regards the Jerome Frandle case, I have no axe to grind with the man. In some ways I sympathise with his position and whilst I have no bias with regards to the outcome of court case he is involved with at the moment with respect to him personally, it is the attitude of the Victoria workers (and others) which clearly underlines the fact that the workers need a conviction or two to bring them to heel in respect of matters which are only right and proper. The only true servants of God? These men aren't even true servants of the children in their recognised religious organisation. Shame on them. May they be aborted from the system like discharged bowel waste for which there is no craving for a return. In recognising these selfish servants of self interest, it would be remiss of me to ignore the bold efforts of those workers and friends who are striving against such archaic and ignorant Irvinists and who should not only receive our due recognition, but also our encouragement and support.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 8:41:39 GMT -5
I agree ram. The situation in Victoria Australia appears to be much worse than anything with Jerome Frandle's case. In Victoria, they need to be recognized as a rogue organization and monitored by authorities.
Many of the Christian Convention organizations around the world need the same focus by authorities. Some have taken small steps by allowing their worker staff to take the one hour MinistrySafe course. However, that does not make them suddenly knowledgeable and responsible leaders of the group. They need to follow a standardized Protocol that is accessible and understood by all. They need regular training sessions at least once/year as well as many of the friends. Otherwise, this remains a risky organization for children to be associated with.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 9:01:37 GMT -5
I agree ram. The situation in Victoria Australia appears to be much worse than anything with Jerome Frandle's case. In Victoria, they need to be recognized as a rogue organization and monitored by authorities. Many of the Christian Convention organizations around the world need the same focus by authorities. Some have taken small steps by allowing their worker staff to take the one hour MinistrySafe course. However, that does not make them suddenly knowledgeable and responsible leaders of the group. They need to follow a standardized Protocol that is accessible and understood by all. They need regular training sessions at least once/year as well as many of the friends. Otherwise, this remains a risky organization for children to be associated with. I agree, but as we have both recently recognised the biggest step the workers can make towards better child protection is a change in attitude. Even without training and education, a change in attitude coupled with bog standard common sense would go a long way towards dealing with the matter. The focus MUST be "children first - workers second." Until they do that, they serve no one but themselves. The more I learn about mandatory reporting the less I like it. In my view it creates more problems for child protection than it solves, BUT the main reason that I decline from throwing it out the child protection tool box, is because of the selfish attitude of workers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 9:30:09 GMT -5
Cherie I know the first cousins of these children. The wife of one is a member of TLC. There was no suggestion of CSA at the time, or to my knowledge since. I realise that given the recent events in Victoria it may be tempting to look at CSA as a motivation for the children's suicides, but I think it's not wise to make this type of suggestion without checking with those close to the children. I believe that the influence of Cobain and Nirvana would be closer to the truth. Even the MO (firearm) was the same as Cobain's suicide... Still, the question needs to be asked: Who hurt that girl and how?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 9:33:46 GMT -5
I agree ram. The situation in Victoria Australia appears to be much worse than anything with Jerome Frandle's case. In Victoria, they need to be recognized as a rogue organization and monitored by authorities. Many of the Christian Convention organizations around the world need the same focus by authorities. Some have taken small steps by allowing their worker staff to take the one hour MinistrySafe course. However, that does not make them suddenly knowledgeable and responsible leaders of the group. They need to follow a standardized Protocol that is accessible and understood by all. They need regular training sessions at least once/year as well as many of the friends. Otherwise, this remains a risky organization for children to be associated with. I agree, but as we have both recently recognised the biggest step the workers can make towards better child protection is a change in attitude. Even without training and education, a change in attitude coupled with bog standard common sense would go a long way towards dealing with the matter. The focus MUST be "children first - workers second." Until they do that, they serve no one but themselves. The more I learn about mandatory reporting the less I like it. In my view it creates more problems for child protection than it solves, BUT the main reason that I decline from throwing it out the child protection tool box, is because of the selfish attitude of workers. That's probably the reason for a lot of laws, including this one. Every professional's life is made easier if they turn a blind eye to suspicions of child abuse. Many professionals will do so if they can. Why would they want to complicate their cushy lives with abuse reports? The workers are no different except they are also trying to maintain a false image of perfection of the ministry and fellowship, so they have even more incentive to sweep it under the carpet. People like this must have laws which force them to do the right thing.....they won't do it otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 10:03:25 GMT -5
I agree, but as we have both recently recognised the biggest step the workers can make towards better child protection is a change in attitude. Even without training and education, a change in attitude coupled with bog standard common sense would go a long way towards dealing with the matter. The focus MUST be "children first - workers second." Until they do that, they serve no one but themselves. The more I learn about mandatory reporting the less I like it. In my view it creates more problems for child protection than it solves, BUT the main reason that I decline from throwing it out the child protection tool box, is because of the selfish attitude of workers. That's probably the reason for a lot of laws, including this one. Every professional's life is made easier if they turn a blind eye to suspicions of child abuse. Many professionals will do so if they can. Why would they want to complicate their cushy lives with abuse reports? The workers are no different except they are also trying to maintain a false image of perfection of the ministry and fellowship, so they have even more incentive to sweep it under the carpet. People like this must have laws which force them to do the right thing.....they won't do it otherwise. Whilst I agree that in most cases criminal laws are necessary and justified, from what I can see, this one in many cases actually achieves the opposite of what it was intended to do. It breeds situation avoidance and suspicion suppression and denial. It also results in a lot of crap being reported. The authorities in one state in Australia even had to raise the level of severity of child abuse before they would become involved, due to the amount of reports they received as a result of mandatory reporting. Whilst one set of professionals bury their suspicions, another reports everything and anything "to keep themselves right" and "only doing their job." In my view the reporting of reasonable suspicions of child abuse should be "primarily" driven by a genuine concern for children, not through force of the law. This requires an extensive education programme with properly trained persons and contacts in places where children are predominantly gathered. People have nothing to fear in taking matters direct to the relevant authorities. They are there to give advice as well as investigate appropriate cases. Raising a matter with the authorities does not automatically mean you are reporting the matter, merely seeking advice and clarity. However, for some reason many people have difficulty with this, and professionals are often worse than the layman. Forcing them to report something they have reservations about or are otherwise reluctant about brings with it many other problems including denial of suspicions. This does nothing for child protection. The trouble is, people (including professionals) do not know what to report or when to report, along with a whole load of other inhibiting factors. Force of law often drives them in two directions. Report anything and everything, even the ridiculous, in the interests of keeping themselves right, or denying suspicions, situation avoidance, etc. This does not best serve child protection. Furthermore, the investigation of many cases of failure to report is not straight forward. There are many pitfalls, eg how do you report someone who has had reasonable suspicions and has failed to report, but has not revealed these suspicions to anyone? How do you know these people have suspicions ? In my opinion it is necessary to get people talking about the issue and giving them trained personnel to talk to about their fears, concerns and suspicions. It is essential that the inhibitive barriers are brought down. This is what is happening in the UK. The barriers which inhibit people from reporting will not be properly brought down by force of law. In fact it will create as many as it overcomes. Attitudes have to change. It has happened in the UK. No system is perfect and there is a long way to go.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 18, 2012 10:23:13 GMT -5
I suppose, but the US government seems to know an "it" organization when they see one. The F&W church was determined to be an religious organization in 1946 by the Federal Government and it was ruled by a court of law again in 2012 that "it" is a religious organization. For the Australian Inquiry, the fact that the group is an organization is confirmed in a sworn statement by Evan Jones, late overseer of Victoria: "Our organisation is financially well off." "Our organisation has no restrictions.... " The fact that they are an organization in Victoria which has no history of proper handling of CSA crimes is something that an Inquiry needs to look at so that they can legislate rogue groups like this who cannot do what is right on their own. This echoes my sentiments entirely. I have taken the liberty of assuming Spiders has informed us correctly with regards to the attitude of the workers in Victoria. With regards the Jerome Frandle case, I have no axe to grind with the man. In some ways I sympathise with his position and whilst I have no bias with regards to the outcome of court case he is involved with at the moment with respect to him personally, it is the attitude of the Victoria workers (and others) which clearly underlines the fact that the workers need a conviction or two to bring them to heel in respect of matters which are only right and proper. The only true servants of God? These men aren't even true servants of the children in their recognised religious organisation. Shame on them. May they be aborted from the system like discharged bowel waste for which there is no craving for a return. In recognising these selfish servants of self interest, it would be remiss of me to ignore the bold efforts of those workers and friends who are striving against such archaic and ignorant Irvinists and who should not only receive our due recognition, but also our encouragement and support. Ram, what troubles me is this...."those" workers whom are in the ruling places of the fellowship were at ONE time very soft and gentle men...."What the heck has happened to change them so?" Perhaps look at the previous generation of ruling workers.....is it not true that the previous ruling workers "trained" or "schooled" the present ruling workers? Did they not make them become themselves all over again? The reason I say this is this.....the CSA issues were HIDDEN and secreted here and there BY THE PREVIOUS ruling workers AS MUCH AS the present ruling workers have anda re continuing to do. There has to be something that is passed down through this tightly knit upper echelong of workers for each generations....what is it? Is it an "ordaining" rite? Is it something that these young workers that know to rise in the workership they have to be a repeat of those gone before? What is it? This is where the mason'[s rites may well enter in......I suspect WI passed that to his top choice workers and it has continued to be within each generation of ruling workers. Is it possible that the lower echelons of workers are not touched with this "rite of passage"? And that are sitting ducks because they don't know of this "rite of passage"? There has to be a reason that the "working class" of workers are not pulled into the happenings of the upper class workers.....and it would not be untold or unknown that this could well be like the prepping of people like some of the fraternity and soroitity things in the college aged adults. We know that some of those "hazing" preps can be quite cruel and some have died during those rites of passage......so what is IT that put these ruling workers into a class of people that are not touched by the cries of the victims? They are MORE concerned that a brother is rescued instead of paying heed to the cries of the victims....this is not normal for the majority of normal living people.....the childrens' cries usually are paid heed to first before any "brother is restored"......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 10:40:39 GMT -5
This echoes my sentiments entirely. I have taken the liberty of assuming Spiders has informed us correctly with regards to the attitude of the workers in Victoria. With regards the Jerome Frandle case, I have no axe to grind with the man. In some ways I sympathise with his position and whilst I have no bias with regards to the outcome of court case he is involved with at the moment with respect to him personally, it is the attitude of the Victoria workers (and others) which clearly underlines the fact that the workers need a conviction or two to bring them to heel in respect of matters which are only right and proper. The only true servants of God? These men aren't even true servants of the children in their recognised religious organisation. Shame on them. May they be aborted from the system like discharged bowel waste for which there is no craving for a return. In recognising these selfish servants of self interest, it would be remiss of me to ignore the bold efforts of those workers and friends who are striving against such archaic and ignorant Irvinists and who should not only receive our due recognition, but also our encouragement and support. Ram, what troubles me is this...."those" workers whom are in the ruling places of the fellowship were at ONE time very soft and gentle men...."What the heck has happened to change them so?" Perhaps look at the previous generation of ruling workers.....is it not true that the previous ruling workers "trained" or "schooled" the present ruling workers? Did they not make them become themselves all over again? The reason I say this is this.....the CSA issues were HIDDEN and secreted here and there BY THE PREVIOUS ruling workers AS MUCH AS the present ruling workers have anda re continuing to do. There has to be something that is passed down through this tightly knit upper echelong of workers for each generations....what is it? Is it an "ordaining" rite? Is it something that these young workers that know to rise in the workership they have to be a repeat of those gone before? What is it? This is where the mason'[s rites may well enter in......I suspect WI passed that to his top choice workers and it has continued to be within each generation of ruling workers. Is it possible that the lower echelons of workers are not touched with this "rite of passage"? And that are sitting ducks because they don't know of this "rite of passage"? There has to be a reason that the "working class" of workers are not pulled into the happenings of the upper class workers.....and it would not be untold or unknown that this could well be like the prepping of people like some of the fraternity and soroitity things in the college aged adults. We know that some of those "hazing" preps can be quite cruel and some have died during those rites of passage......so what is IT that put these ruling workers into a class of people that are not touched by the cries of the victims? They are MORE concerned that a brother is rescued instead of paying heed to the cries of the victims....this is not normal for the majority of normal living people.....the childrens' cries usually are paid heed to first before any "brother is restored"...... Shaz, as far as I see it the main problem is one of "attitude!" The circumstances of the Work breed what appears to us as "bad attitude" for many real life concerns. This may not be down to simple wrong attitude on the part of the workers. In reality the peripatetic nature of the workers' business does not equip them for anything other than taking the gospel to new areas. It is a hopeless concept for dealing with localised issues and can only result in most cases with getting things wrong. The real way forward is a properly established "middle body" between the workers and the lay fellowship who can take on board and deal with real life concerns. The workers flee hireling like from real life concerns in the fellowship simply because they are not able because of practical reasons to do things properly. They gave up all to go into the work. They unburdened themselves with most of this lives concerns to concentrate on delivering the gospel message by itinerant means. They are averse therefore to burden themselves with any cares. Their lifestyle is anathema to the dealing with real life concerns within the fellowship. The answer to many real life problems for the church does not lie with the workers themselves but in the establishing a middle body within the fellowship which can properly address matters, much like how the Apostles asked the church to set up a committee of 7 men full of the Holy Spirit to look into the plight of the widows and orphans. Those who are itinerant are not able to take on board such concerns. Yes they can have some input and involvement but what it needs are people who are grounded in real life situations to take these things on board. The problem with the workers is that although they will desperately grab my sympathies expressed on their behalf here to justify themselves, they will not on the other hand grasp the nettle and bring about that middle tier that is justified by the New Testament to have things properly addressed. Basically they don't want to deal with the problems which is understandable due to their lifestyle, but they don't want others to take them on board either, which is very, very sad!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 18, 2012 13:02:40 GMT -5
The workers do not even want to allow stable friends to have bible studies with interested outsiders....I cannot see how that hurts anyone....seems both parties stand to learn more....a new point of view often changes our minds, eh?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 18, 2012 13:48:58 GMT -5
I've heard this "we are not an organization" quite often. We have no collective responsibility, we are just a group that meets informally for a spiritual purpose and we are bound together by God, but not by man. Try telling that to the Jordans who received a phone call from Jim Knipe informing them there would be no more meetings in their home and they were not allowed to go to meetings anywhere in the world. Try telling it to Steve Blubaugh who was forbidden to attend meetings in a foreign country solely on the ground that he was forbidden from attending meetings in America. You realize I'm paraphrasing, don't you? ... Just checking.
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Post by JO on Apr 18, 2012 15:31:24 GMT -5
What, it doesn't matter whether you're paraphrasing or quoting word for word.
We both know that its just a group that meets informally when it suits, and its a world-wide organisation when that serves the purpose better.
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Post by JO on Apr 18, 2012 15:35:37 GMT -5
I agree, but as we have both recently recognised the biggest step the workers can make towards better child protection is a change in attitude. Even without training and education, a change in attitude coupled with bog standard common sense would go a long way towards dealing with the matter. The attitude and nature of our Lord Jesus prevailing in the work would go a long way towards solving the problems. Jesus accepted all manner of abuse against himself, but he was outspoken when he saw the abuse of others.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 18, 2012 15:43:35 GMT -5
I agree ram. The situation in Victoria Australia appears to be much worse than anything with Jerome Frandle's case. In Victoria, they need to be recognized as a rogue organization and monitored by authorities. Many of the Christian Convention organizations around the world need the same focus by authorities. Some have taken small steps by allowing their worker staff to take the one hour MinistrySafe course. However, that does not make them suddenly knowledgeable and responsible leaders of the group. They need to follow a standardized Protocol that is accessible and understood by all. They need regular training sessions at least once/year as well as many of the friends. Otherwise, this remains a risky organization for children to be associated with. I feel that JF's case as far as the MI authorities are concerned IS their way of "learning" what kind of "rogue organization" that the 2x2 fellowship IS. They are most likely to be cognizant of the "warning" that the CA authorities issued to Dale Shultz about the CSA issues that are long hidden within the fellowship and workership at the worst. I think the MI authorities ARE seeking information and I think with JF playing that right into their hands....I also feel that there would likely be many attorneys JF might seek for defense that would be apt to be kind of the like the last one, not really a good defense attorney due to the KNOWN amount of CSA that have actually come to light within the 2x2 fellowship. THIS has been my concern for a time now and that is the fact that we have had experience with the way authorities often get rid of "rogue organizations"! This could well spell a lot of what the workers think as their persecutions and they count it dear to be so persecuted! Maybe JF is being the only one who wants to fight the "persecutions"! Likely his peers and overseers are trying about any way under wraps of stopping JF from proceeding with his defense......but it just increases the "persecution" that I've heard many friends and workers say proves that they are the only true church. But so did the David Kareesh organization eh? And the fellowship IS far more organized then those poor folks were.....
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Post by sharonw on Apr 18, 2012 15:55:51 GMT -5
Cherie I know the first cousins of these children. The wife of one is a member of TLC. There was no suggestion of CSA at the time, or to my knowledge since. I realise that given the recent events in Victoria it may be tempting to look at CSA as a motivation for the children's suicides, but I think it's not wise to make this type of suggestion without checking with those close to the children. I believe that the influence of Cobain and Nirvana would be closer to the truth. Even the MO (firearm) was the same as Cobain's suicide... Still, the question needs to be asked: Who hurt that girl and how?I have to say this...the "hurt that girl had" could have been more to the fact of an abusive parent/guardian and after whipping or slapping/beating the children, they used going to mtgs. as something the children NEEDED to make them better children, more obedient children for they certainly seemed bent on being Satan's little helpers. I saw how that is....a young girl was yanked out of a bathroom one Sun. a.m. and beat, slapped all around her head and face....still had a mouth full of toothpaste. It hurt her physically as well as emotionally. Not ever let go back into the bathroom to finish getting the toothpaste out of her mouth and marched right out to the car and pushed into the car with words to the effect, she needed the mtgs. worse then anybody else in the family. That child had NO idea of the reason for all of this slapping/beating to start with and says she still doesn't to this day! But it is known of other "friends" who have treated the children much this way and if the children did not appear to want to go to mtg. for some reason, all the more reason they were told that they MUST go to mtgs. One man has said that his father was really severe with the physical punishments and it was said that people who knew this father BEFORE he and his wife professed were MUCH less strict/stern and quick to punish his kids..... There is something in the fellowship that makes a good number of parents/guardians simply far to rigid and strict and quick to punish their children and anything that is related to "going to mtgs. and convs." usually was part of the severe punishment....as if going to the mtgs. convs, those children would become angels.....but all it seems to do is to make those parents and ruling workers more abusive.....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 16:00:25 GMT -5
Ram I agree with you, workers are not the right people to deal with day to day problems, because of their isolated life style. They have an Apostolic function.
There needs to be those who have a Pastoral role. It could be a committee of elders. This works for other Churches.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 18, 2012 16:08:42 GMT -5
I agree, but as we have both recently recognised the biggest step the workers can make towards better child protection is a change in attitude. Even without training and education, a change in attitude coupled with bog standard common sense would go a long way towards dealing with the matter. The attitude and nature of our Lord Jesus prevailing in the work would go a long way towards solving the problems. Jesus accepted all manner of abuse against himself, but he was outspoken when he saw the abuse of others. And as I've mentioned more then once...the answer for the workers in regards to one of their peers that committs some kind of hurt against a child, are in the bible...it is as plain as the nose on our faces. Jesus taught it Himself. Mar 10:13 ¶ And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and [his] disciples rebuked those that brought [them]. Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. I think this story is a whole lot more then talking about letting the children profess. I think it is when children are wrongly treated...as we see Jesus' own apostles did treat them wrong...they tried to push them away as IF they didn't count at all...THAT is what Jesus was much displeased about! Besides of what the OT speaks about the sexual sins against the innocent!
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Apr 18, 2012 16:35:49 GMT -5
Cherie I know the first cousins of these children. The wife of one is a member of TLC. There was no suggestion of CSA at the time, or to my knowledge since. I realise that given the recent events in Victoria it may be tempting to look at CSA as a motivation for the children's suicides, but I think it's not wise to make this type of suggestion without checking with those close to the children. I believe that the influence of Cobain and Nirvana would be closer to the truth. Even the MO (firearm) was the same as Cobain's suicide... Still, the question needs to be asked: Who hurt that girl and how?A valid question CD - my defensiveness on this issue is due to my desire to protect my friends (the children's first cousins) from any hurt due to speculative comment. There was a coroners enquiry into the deaths, and the results are public documents, of which the overseers statement are a part.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 18, 2012 16:43:43 GMT -5
One question: if the 2x2s develop a good elder system, with qualified people to address real-life concerns and theological concepts in a reasonable manner, what need would the friends have for the workers?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 17:19:00 GMT -5
quizzer, you still need workers for the apostolic function. They are not suitable for the pastoral role. This is why the 2x2 church is having problems. They need to recognize this, and fix it.
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Post by mira on Apr 18, 2012 17:36:33 GMT -5
If real life issues were dealt with by people who have their own families and life experience the workers could concentrate on spreading Gods word. I think it's a brilliant idea but how could we ever get the workers to agree to such a thing?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 18:19:56 GMT -5
Still, the question needs to be asked: Who hurt that girl and how?A valid question CD - my defensiveness on this issue is due to my desire to protect my friends (the children's first cousins) from any hurt due to speculative comment. There was a coroners enquiry into the deaths, and the results are public documents, of which the overseers statement are a part. Fair enough, and it was a long time ago now. Still, it wouldn't surprise me one bit that one or more people have the answer right now. Like Cherie, my radar has always been up on that one. People would like to blame Cobain or the 2x2 mtg system for various reasons, but the reality is that people usually only do significant acts for very personal reasons....not more distant stuff like Cobain's suicide or boring meetings at convention. On the other hand, people who are severely depressed and suicidal might be encouraged to do a copycat suicide of someone they admire, so it could be that simple......I presume that is the typical narrative the for cause of suicides?
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Post by Done4now on Apr 18, 2012 18:23:10 GMT -5
A valid question CD - my defensiveness on this issue is due to my desire to protect my friends (the children's first cousins) from any hurt due to speculative comment. There was a coroners enquiry into the deaths, and the results are public documents, of which the overseers statement are a part. Fair enough, and it was a long time ago now. Still, it wouldn't surprise me one bit that one or more people have the answer right now. Like Cherie, my radar has always been up on that one. People would like to blame Cobain or the 2x2 mtg system for various reasons, but the reality is that people usually only do significant acts for very personal reasons....not more distant stuff like Cobain's suicide or boring meetings at convention. On the other hand, people who are severely depressed and suicidal might be encouraged to do a copycat suicide of someone they admire, so it could be that simple......I presume that is the typical narrative the for cause of suicides? I also wouldn't be surprised if there was something very painful that had happened. Very sad situation.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 18, 2012 19:47:56 GMT -5
I did wonder about the following paragraph from Evan Jones's statement: =================================================================== Our organisation has no restrictions on music, dancing, television, sport, food or anything else for that matter. We do not exercise any authority over an individuals faith. However a member of our faith would not be interested in Music, Television or the like, as life is complete without them. Even though it may be considered bad form here on TMB to describe experiences that fail to substantiate the claims of certain posters, I will say unequivocally and without hesitation that the above statement was true and valid in my personal experience living in the Mid-Atlantic section of the United States and traveling through many of the other states between the years 1945 (year of my birth) and 1963 (year I chose to leave the F&W Fellowship). Specifically, Music: I listened to popular music in the presence of my family, friends (school friends and professing friends), teachers, and neighbors. I have no specific recollection of listening to popular music in the presence of a worker. I listened to music on car radios, transistor radios, phonographs (33rpm, 45rmp and 78rpm) and jukeboxes. I took piano lessons in elementary school, attempted to learn clarinet in middle school, and learned trombone in high school. Was a member of a high school marching band that participated in half-time activities at one University of Maryland football game. During my junior year in high school, a worker took me aside (quietly and kindly) and suggested that I might want to reconsider my participation in the marching band. Several months later I made the decision to stop playing the trombone in our high school marching band. The worker’s suggestion was a contributing factor in my decision but was not the determinative factor. Dance: Throughout my childhood and early adulthood, I did not dance. I did attend my Senior Prom (I was professing at the time). I did not dance at the Prom. Television: Our family did not have a television in the home. I often watched television with neighborhood friends with the full knowledge of my parents. Although I have no specific recollection, I may well have watched television at a friend’s house while workers were visiting our home. I have no recollection of discussing television programming with a worker. Sports: I have always enjoyed sports even though I am not athletically gifted. I played backyard baseball, football, volleyball, badminton, bike-riding (pedal bikes, Scott), fishing, ice skating and roller skating and later lacrosse. I engaged in each of these activities with friends (professing and non-professing). I engaged in some of these activities with workers (badminton, bike-riding, fishing and ice skating). I was sports editor of the high school paper and attended all games home and away. My father and I frequently listened to baseball games on the car radio in the front yard of our home. My father and I attended professional baseball games (Baltimore Orioles playing in Memorial Stadium in Baltimore, Maryland). I also attended a couple of games with neighborhood friends at the same stadium. I used to enjoy going to the “Donkey-Baseball” games when they came to town once or twice each summer. While professing I built a Heath transistor radio on our dining room table in plain sight of my parents and any/all who visited our home. I listened to World Series games on this transistor radio while sitting in class in high school (Oops, sorry Miss Bootsy). Food: I am unaware of any dietary restrictions, food choice restrictions nor food consumption restrictions placed on myself or my family beyond budget, healthy balance and familial food preferences conditioned by cultural heritage. Other: I recall norms of behavior that were generally accepted by members of the Fellowship community in which I was B&R that included dress, personal appearance, language, reverence for scripture and religious practices, respect for others and compassion for others. These norms were generally accepted by all. The limits of these norms were frequently tested by some, particularly adolescents including myself. The consequence of adherence to the behavior norms was to set myself apart from my schoolmates and peers in some respects but also contributed to foundations of friendship with schoolmates which persist to this day and will be celebrated once again this summer when I attend my 50th High School Reunion. The choices I made as a young person growing up in the F&W Fellowship were influenced and governed by many factors including teachings of my family, friends and workers, examples by my family, friends and workers, school teachers, personal experiences, peer pressure, social acceptance and a sense of personal well being. The hallmark of these choices was always “moderation (balance) in all things” a lesson learned from my father. Throughout my career and life experiences, reflections on my childhood rearing consistently leave me with a sense of excellent preparation for life, a sense of fulfillment and mostly pleasant memories. During this period of my life I first developed my sense of spiritual awareness. In my experience there is nothing disingenuous nor skirting the edges of a lie stated or implied by the putative statement of the individual identified as Evan Jones. I did not observe meaningful exceptions to my experiences among any of the members of the F&W Fellowships that I knew during the period specified above. Different individuals made different choices with respect to all of the categories listed above but I have absolutely no evidence suggesting any of those choices were coerced in any manner different from the examples described above. There will be those who will choose to characterize these descriptions of my personal experiences as naïve, immature, nostalgic, unrepresentative, and/or statistically irrelevant. Some may choose to minimize my experiences as highly unusual based on the prevalent narratives found here on TMB. Some may choose to dismiss these experiences because they are different from their own. Some may find that the experiences I describe are inconsistent with some grander agenda of their own. I can only attest to the truth and validity of the lived experiences described above. The narratives found on the TMB are largely of those who do not fit the "norms" of the group. They're not characteristic of those who do or did fit into the "norms". Both kinds of narrative are equally valid. The question left unanswered by Evan Jones' comment is what happens to members of the faith who are interested in "Music, Television or the like".
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Post by What Hat on Apr 18, 2012 19:52:31 GMT -5
A valid question CD - my defensiveness on this issue is due to my desire to protect my friends (the children's first cousins) from any hurt due to speculative comment. There was a coroners enquiry into the deaths, and the results are public documents, of which the overseers statement are a part. Fair enough, and it was a long time ago now. Still, it wouldn't surprise me one bit that one or more people have the answer right now. Like Cherie, my radar has always been up on that one. People would like to blame Cobain or the 2x2 mtg system for various reasons, but the reality is that people usually only do significant acts for very personal reasons....not more distant stuff like Cobain's suicide or boring meetings at convention. On the other hand, people who are severely depressed and suicidal might be encouraged to do a copycat suicide of someone they admire, so it could be that simple......I presume that is the typical narrative the for cause of suicides? It's not fair to speculate ... heartbreak for the parents and family, and these things can happen to the best of us.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 20:11:10 GMT -5
Fair enough, and it was a long time ago now. Still, it wouldn't surprise me one bit that one or more people have the answer right now. Like Cherie, my radar has always been up on that one. People would like to blame Cobain or the 2x2 mtg system for various reasons, but the reality is that people usually only do significant acts for very personal reasons....not more distant stuff like Cobain's suicide or boring meetings at convention. On the other hand, people who are severely depressed and suicidal might be encouraged to do a copycat suicide of someone they admire, so it could be that simple......I presume that is the typical narrative the for cause of suicides? It's not fair to speculate ... heartbreak for the parents and family, and these things can happen to the best of us. If the truth is known, it would certainly be unfair to speculate otherwise....awful really. However, if I was a parent and lost two kids under unclear circumstances, there would be nothing more I would like than to find the truth. I know how relieved I was when I discovered the truth about the early death of a family member, five years after the death, then more information 5 more years later. The truth wasn't pretty, but when all the pieces fell together it was a huge relief for me, and an ability to let that person rest in peace. It was like a burden lifted.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 21:37:13 GMT -5
Just a helpful suggestion to the 2x2 powers that be in Victoria. Late last year you used the services of one of Melbournes best CSA psychologists, Ms Southy to keep one of your own out of jail. You could get Ms Southy to help you formulate CSA policy to present to the inquiry. Would be a smart move. Don't thank me, I am just trying to help.
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 18, 2012 21:51:32 GMT -5
Just a helpful suggestion to the 2x2 powers that be in Victoria. Late last year you used the services of one of Melbournes best CSA psychologists, Ms Southy to keep one of your own out of jail. You could get Ms Southy to help you formulate CSA policy to present to the inquiry. Would be a smart move. Don't thank me, I am just trying to help. Actually, all the overseers in that area have been sent the Worker Guidelines which were developed by members of the church in the hope that they would be utilized by the overseers and workers. Here once again is the link to those Worker Guidelines which were sent to overseers around the world: sites.google.com/site/csacodeofconduct/home
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