Who IS Jesus Bible wise

[ariandgabe]

"Let Us Make ..."

We were created in the image of God, right?
Jesus was the 'Son of God' before He came to earth. Born of the mother Mary is when 'the First Born' became the Son of man.

No one can find me a place where Jesus refers to himself as God the Father.
The "I am THAT I am' is God the Father on whom no name can be placed. How can you identify the ‘source of all there is’?

'I am WHO I am' is "God's Firstborn' who came to earth, born of a woman. The ‘Who’ can be identified and is identified with many names; Jesus, Christ, the ‘Gate’ of the sheep, the ‘Sheppard’ of the flock, the ‘Rose of Sharon’ and many other names.

John 17:24
“for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

Eph 3:9
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

Think about this for a moment; when God through His Son created Adam, did Adam lack anything? God said that when He looked at all His work, He saw 'it was good'.
So Adam had to be perfect and complete. He was man and woman all in one. In a much grandeur sense, God is complete and the source of all that IS.

Adam became lonely, and since we have the same attributes, we were given the same feelings as God, so it is safe to say God must have been lonely. (He surrounds Himself with angels worshiping Him, singing new songs and by looking at His creation here on earth, you can tell that He loves diversity. Every tree, every human, and even every snowflake is different.);

Gen 2:18
18 And the LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." In the same way, Jesus is Gods 'helper'.

Jesus was 'begotten' (which means the cause of something) of the Father. He 'came out' of the Father and this is why He is the only ONE who is like God, but not "all God". "I and the Father are one" meaning from the same source. Not born of, nor created, but begotten.

Eve was 'begotten' in a sense from Adam, and for this reason God said; "The two shall become ONE"
John 3:16-17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world” ‘Send His Son’ means He was the Son who was sent. Once in the womb of Mary, the Son took on a physical form and was born as a human. There was no other “Son of God’ in heaven while He was here. The Son was completely here, died and rose again.

Now we can understand the risk associated with this task the Son of God took upon him, and why He prayed with drops of blood pouring from His brow.

What do you think, dear friends?

In Jesus name: Odon

[ddowdy]

I think Odon my friend that you have furnished us with an interesting and beautifully written explication with which I can find no fault. Thank you.

[ariandgabe]

Thank you my dear brother in Christ Daniel. The above is a very important subject, too bad Christians today don't realize this. Because of the misinterpretations like making God, the Son and the Holy Spirit ONE person, it opens doors to great confusions like that the one half the world is acknowledging, that is that; ‘Mary is the mother of God’.

If Jesus IS God (which is nowhere in the Bible) then YES, Mary IS the Mother of GOD, right? This gives way and permission to; ‘add to and take away from’ Gods Word and cause a whole lot of error and confusion. The Pope loves this because the statues of Mary are the all time best sellers. Little Jesus is still there in her protective arms; ‘Don’t worry little Jesus, mama will protect you, but remember that you must do what mama tells you to do. Mama has millions of people asking her for things, so please grow up soon; I mean you been in my arms for two thousand years now, grow up, will you!’

P.S.
I would like to hear Nathan and Pianoman write an in-depth report on the subject, but they are too busy trying to kick me out so they might fit in. They are a couple of 2X2’s in grave darkness, but I feel they are crying out for help. So let us pray for them (I have been for some time now) as for each other, dear brother.

2 Thess 3:1-2
Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified, just as it is with you, 2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.
NKJV

[theophilia]

Dear Ariandgabe,

Arian indeed:) Thankyou for a stimulating read. However, I did notice one thing that seems to be your basis of misunderstanding, in my opinion.

You said:

Because of the misinterpretations like making God, the Son and the Holy Spirit ONE person, it opens doors to great confusions...

You seem to have misunderstood the nature of the trinity completely. The trinity is the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three individual subsistences, or persons.

The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

The Trinity

> God is three persons
> Each person is divine
> There is only one God.

Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities, nor three beings. God, is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.

Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.

Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them.

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. But this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are not found in the Bible either. But we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.

Is there subordination in the Trinity?


There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).

This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity, but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38). Of course Jesus already is King, but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn't mean they are different than the one who sent him.

Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way. But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and in the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when a wife sends a husband to get bread, he is not human.

Is this confusing?

Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand -- especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God's essence and nature is not possible. What we have, however, done is derive from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.

It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error.

The following verses are often used to demonstrate that in the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical.

Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

1 Cor. 12:4-6, Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."

Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

I ask only that you prayerfully research what I am telling you to see whther my claims are accurate of historical trinitarianism -- I think you'll find they are, and as such I've included some sources at the end of my post.


Yours in the Master's Service, Jesus Christ, fully God, truly Man,

In Him,


Theophilia

__________________

Sources:

Baker's Dictionary of Theology, Everett Harrison, ed. Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1960.

Berkhoff's Systematic Theology, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1988.

Grudem, Wayne, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1994.

Hodge's Systematic Theology, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981.

[ariandgabe]

Thank you so much Theofilia

I am so happy to have such dedicated Christians that I can talk to. I have been on many Christian sights and NONE even came close to you here.

I am thankful to God to have found you. Thank you so much to have concidered my letter of such in-depth answer, this is exactly what a church should be like. I will read it again and again until I understand what YOU understand.

I am self learned, (didn't finish school) so I am sorry for the crudeness in my writings. I believe God is using His Holy spirit to teach me. If I am in the wrong, then my letter was from Odon and NOT guided by the Holy Spirit because I know and believe that the Spirit does NOT teach one person one way and another person a different way.

If so, then I Odon will heed to the truth, God knows my heart.
I thank you again and will get back to you.

[ddowdy]

Thank you Theophilia. Yours is a compelling piece of writing about the three (3) distinct entities which comprise the one (1) living God. This has always been a subject that I admittedly have never fully understood nor, have I ever really been able to comprehend it even sufficiently to develop a satisfactory understanding. With that said, I very much appreciate the knowledge you have shared with us and I would welcome any further enlightenment anyone might be willing to provide. I also appreciate that both your contribution and, of course, Odon's have stimulated and encouraged me to commit more time studying and thinking about these topics. Again, Thank You.

[ariandgabe]

Part 1

‘Theophilia' wrote;
Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.

Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.

Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them.

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. But this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are not found in the Bible either. But we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.

Thank you ‘Theofilia', but after reading and studying your letter, it seems to me that you (as millions of other Christians) put your total trust in the scholars instead of listening to Gods Holy Spirit for instruction.

I don’t have a problem with believeing that there is A God who cannot be named because of the limitations in naming someone like God the ‘All There Is’, the great ‘I Am’. There is NO other God like Him. He is all powerful and everything you said about Him above, EXCEPT that He is three in ONE.

The only thing about the ‘trinity’ that I agree with you and the scholars is that; “It is NOT Biblical.”

I only know and understand what Gods Word reveals to me. You cannot ADD or TAKE AWAY from Gods Word. Jesus quoted scripture to Satan and Satan quoted scripture to Jesus. If Jesus would have said something that is NOT from the scripture (or not perfectly related TO) then we could call Him a liar (which I’m sure Satan was hoping to achieve). So to avoid any confusion (as obviously you and the scholars have) God had all the important things relating to our salvation in black and white.

First of all, you are trying to teach me that we do not have to stick to the rules of mathematics (which God has created and made the rules to) you are saying that 1+1+1=1. Even a dumb person like me knows that this is NOT from God but from the Confuser.

Second, then you are trying to tell me that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is ONE all-powerful God, but that: “There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order”
So now you are not only trying to make me believe that 1+1+1=1, but that each numerical 1 has a different value. 1 is 1, but the NEXT 1 is LESS THEN 1 and so on.

THEN you go back to what I was saying in; “By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38)”

But to confuse yourself even more, you say something that is not only non-scriptural but is (I’m sorry to say) dumb. Read it yourself and see if it is not intent to confuse and to deceive:

“This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity, but inferior in his humanity.

A KING IS superior to the slave now and forever. God is superior to Christ now and forever. God WAS and IS and forever WILL BE the Father of Jesus. God is God even when He appears as a burning bush. Jesus never said He will be GOD once He goes up to heaven, even Stephen said that;

Acts 7:56
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
NKJV

You wrote:
“A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will.”

Again you confuse yourself, if a king and his servant both share their human nature, then why is not Jesus portrayed as GOD the Father when in heaven before He came to earth, and become God the Father after He returns?

Rev 3:21
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
NKJV

God sits on His throne and Jesus sits on His throne next to His Father.

You say at one time that God and the Son are the same, then you say that they are separate both in power And being. WHERE do you see in scripture to show and prove to me such claims? You have accepted the teaching of Scholars over the teaching of God.

I only seek wisdom from God through His Word which I find in the Bible. There is no way you can confuse me because my teacher is the Holy Spirit. I stand on ‘solid ground’ my friend. On the other hand, you have accepted teachings by men, and because of this you are confused. To make things worse for yourself, instead of seeking the wisdom that is from ‘heaven’ or Spiritual, you make excuses like this (I don’t mean you only but scholars in general):

“Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand -- especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times.”

Why can’t you and those scholars of theology just accept the truth that is revealed in the Bible instead of trying to twist and turn simple revelations into complicated theories? Read the Bible and search it and pray that God would remove the smoke you have put there by believing in ‘other’ revelations written by theologians made of men NOT ordained by God. Look where this kind of confusion has lead the Mormons. Now they believe that their prophets, now gods, are populating other planets and all sorts of demonic beliefs.

Dear brother in Christ, read the following and if this don’t put things in its proper perspective for you, then you really are fighting ‘against’ Gods Spirit.

Col 1:15-20
15 Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things. 16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him. 17 Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place. 18 He is the head of his body, the church; he is the source of the body's life. He is the first-born Son, who was raised from death, in order that he alone might have the first place in all things. 19 For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God. 20 Through the Son, then, God decided to bring the whole universe back to himself. God made peace through his Son's sacrificial death on the cross and so brought back to himself all things, both on earth and in heaven.
TEV

This is what I have been saying:
1. Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. (God cannot be contained in any form, not physical or even a spiritual form. In heaven we still will see God as a great Light and Power. No name can contain Him either, only a description; ‘I am’ and from Him everything else came to exist, including His beloved Son who, as the Bible says, was begotten. The ONLY one who was begotten of the Father.)

2. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things (This is the ‘firstborn Son in heaven, the begotten of God and NOT yet Jesus the earthly Son begotten of Mary. )

3. For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him. (This universe was a present to the Son from God the Father, NOT a gift for himself.)

4. Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place. (This does NOT say that Christ existed before God but that God had Jesus create all things in the universe that God would eventually give Him as a wedding present.)

5. He is the head of his body, the church; he is the source of the body's life. He is the first-born Son, who was raised from death, in order that he alone might have the first place in all things. 19 For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God. (Say what? it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God? Now doesn’t that make more sense then what the scholars want to teach you?)

end part 1

[ariandgabe]

Dear Christian brothers and readers, I am NOT against 'Theophilia' or any other human on the face of this earth, BUT I am against FALSE and ERRONIOUS teachings on the Bible. ALL Christians should be. We must make a stand for the truth, and I believe that this is why this sight was put up, no? God bless you all and I love you all.

PART 2

‘Theofilia’ said:
God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

The Trinity

> God is three persons
> Each person is divine
> There is only one God.

By trying to define ‘trinity’ you break all physical laws and Gods Word. As I said before you claim that;
Father = 1
Son = 1
Holy Spirit = 1
You say that 1+1+1=1

Then you say that; “a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence.”

First of all, I believe substance IS essence. Second, if the Son is the servant (at any time) and the Father remains God, then for that moment the ‘Son God’ is less then the ‘Father God’ both in ‘substance’ and in ‘essence’. And according to your theory God supposed to remain the total numerical 1 that is ’GOD’ at all times. So how can the statement stand: 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I’? John 14:28

How can God be less then God at ANY TIME?

Now you are stuck in a rut and you can’t even use this next verse where it says; “the Father and I are one”. John 10:30
If you do, then it contradicts John 14:28 where; 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I’.

You see both phrases are used by Jesus here on earth while in His physical body. So how can Son God be less then Father God at one time and be ONE or equal to at another time?

John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

As I have said in my other postings regarding the phrase: “I and My Father are one” means the same as when a woman marries a man, the two shall become one, one in mind, heart and soul.

John 13:16
16 I am telling you the truth: no slave is greater than his master, and no messenger is greater than the one who sent him.
TEV

Read all my postings and you will start seing a clearer picture.

There is ONE God, the Father of the ‘Only Begotten’ and the Father of us that serve Him in Love and truth. He has no name that can contain Him, and has no identifiable or describable ‘form’ that you could see either here on earth or in heaven. God can only be described by ‘He IS’.

Jesus is NOT God the Great ‘I Am’ the Father of Jesus at any time or place in the Bible, NEVER was and NEVER will be. He is the Only Begotten of the Father, who came down and took on a physical form and was Begotten of Mary, died and because He was ‘sinless’ death could NOT contain Him, so He was resurrected and took His place on a throne NEXT to and at the right side of GOD the Father.

John 10:36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

Read this with an open mind:

John 5:19-23
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.

21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
NKJV

Jesus has become as a god as we shall become gods (34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? John 10:34) when we too shall sit on thrones next to God and Jesus in that New Heavens and that New Earth; “that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”

Matt 11:27-28
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
NKJV

[shadow=red,left,300]Children of God are (will be) gods too; otherwise we would not be called children of the Most High. We too shall be given power and strength from Christ himself who got all things from His Father.[/shadow]

[glow=red,2,300]Rev 5:10
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth."[/glow]NKJV

God remains for eternity God the ‘Great I Am’. He is the only true God, and we shall become children of God (little gods). We shall praise His Holy name and praise His Son by whom and through whom we became the children. (When Jesus married the Church, it produced children, US Believers.)

The Holy Spirit Is the Power that emanates from God. When we talk to the Holy Spirit we are talking to God through His Son Jesus Christ. So that is why we refer to the Spirit as ‘He’ because that is the source and the ‘way’ to communicate to Him (God). Like picking up a phone line, if you hear the buzz, the power is on, and then we talk to Christ, who intercedes to the Father on our behalf and ‘glory be’ we are connected to the source of all creation including the Son.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

Again:Now listen to this; there is ONE God, THE God of heaven and earth.

There is ONE Spirit which is the working POWER of God.

There is ONE Son, the only begotten of the Father who is NOT THE God but the Son (like Eve taken from Adam, so is the Son begotten of God) who was given all power over heaven and earth and all things created because He was worthy of it. He earned it, and because of this, He shall be worshipped as god, BECAUSE God knows and the Son has shown that all the worship the Son gets, He relays it to the Father. ‘When you worship the Son, you worship the Father.’

So God does not loose any worship that the Son gets, actually the Son magnifies the worship He gets right back to His Father. (He gets five talents and with it the Son makes five more. What a Son to have, who takes nothing for His own but gives it all to His Father WITH interest. No wonder God loves Him and gives it right back to Him.)

Matt 11:26-28
26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
NKJV

At the end ALL glory goes to God and He lovingly rewards everyone right back. (Maybe this is how God becomes more and more glorious and His Kingdom expands, all because of LOVE?)

Rev 7:11-12
11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen."
NKJV

Rev 19:5
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"
NKJV

[theophilia]

Dear ariandgabe,

Thank you for taking the time to think these things through. However, I think you're still misunderstanding what I'm saying.

The trinity is NOT three separate beings -- there is one God over all. Strict monotheism is a presupposition of Trinitarian theology. However, the concept of identity and the concept of nature must be distinguished.

Nature, describes what something is. Identity denotes who someone is. Ariandgabe (identity) is a human (nature). In the Godhead, all three are God (nature) -- that is not, a god, a mini god, a demi god, or a third of a god, but fully God -- but each is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (identity). Catch my drift?

What do you make of John 8:58, which reads:

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

With Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."

Jesus uses the same title for Himself that God uses of Himself. If you say that the verse is really, "I have been", then why did the Jews want to kill him -- especially when in John 10:30-33 they say they want to kill Him because He claimed to be God? Where and what did Jesus say to cause them to think that?

John 10:30-33, "'I and the Father are one.' The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?' The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"

What was Jesus saying that caused the Jews to accuse Jesus of claiming to be God? If you can't say, then you don't know the text or the culture well enough to address the issue of Christ's deity.

In John 20:27 Thomas called Jesus God by saying to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". If Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus did not correct Thomas? Four verses later, it says that this is written so you might believe that Jesus is the Son of God, (John 20:31). Therefore, we can see that the term Son of God is saying that Jesus is God. If we take this into account, remembering also that ‘God’ refers to nature, and not identity, what else can the Son of God mean but deity? If I have a son, he is also human. Just because Jesus is the Son of God, that doesn’t mean He isn’t divine.

Continuing on, here are just a few more of the texts clearly teaching the deity of Christ,

1. Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"
2. Phil. 2:5-7, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
3. Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [The Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever..."


How would you explain these verses, is Jesus Christ is not divine?


I look forward to your thoughts and contemplations

Yours in the name of Jesus Christ,


Theophilia

[ariandgabe]

Dear Theophilia

The question as to whether the Trinity is merely one of manifestation or that of essential nature has been raised again and again in the history of the church. Undoubtedly the history of revelation shows progress in the unfolding of truth concerning God. And in that sense the Trinity is dispensational. But it is also emphatically to be borne in mind that if God reveals Himself, He must reveal Himself as He is, and the Trinity of revelation must therefore rest upon a Trinity of nature. The attempt to remove difficulty by any sort of Sabellian interpretation only raises difficulty of a deeper character. Can God on the whole reveal Himself other than He actually is?

It is admitted by all who thoughtfully deal with this subject that the Scripture revelation here leads us into the presence of a deep mystery and that all human attempts at expression are of necessity imperfect.

Like:
Matt 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


I KNOW all about the trinity, I used to believe and teach others that also. I can make just as a strong argument as the best of them defending it, but I always had to accept the fact that there will never be an acceptable explanation of it. I found NO book that has ever been able to explain the trinity without leaving a great deal to theology and theory, which as I grew in faith could no longer accept, and to do so I felt that I was rejecting His Holy Spirit. Which in every way and fashion, I WAS.

1 Cor 12:4-6
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
NKJV1

Rev 3:1
… 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: ..

Why did I come to feel this way?

Because I realized that God has explained to me in simple terms EVERY question that has arisen throughout my life. And you know what; ALL the answers were from words written in the Bible. What better place to seek answers to mysteries then from the source? ‘In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God the Word WAS God.’ So why would I turn to scholars and their twisted and confusing theologies? I have the answers right here front of me, and it comes alive in my mind answering every question I have or others might have.

Dear theophilia:
Read my previous letter again. I HAVE written a long explanation to your last post, but when I was done, I realized that I was just repeating myself. It takes FAITH to believe that the Bible IS the authority on not only how we should live our lives, but also on creation, on future events, especially the authority on what is written within its pages.

EVERY Bible quote you gave me is self explanatory. Like the place you mentioned in John 20:27 “My Lord my God”, I also explain in my previous letter.

I have other posts talking about this and other relating questions look them up if you are interested.

What I have written should make you think and if you read it carefully, then read the scholars interpretations, you will see that theirs leaves more to imagination (theory) and confusion. God does not answer me with 10 other questions, which the scholars leave us with.

John 6:53-58
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

God bless you on your search; don’t be so determined to stay wondering in the desert as I have for many years. The kingdom is here and I am already going in and out of it,

Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.

[theophilia]

Dear Ariandgabe,

Thankyou for your response. However, You have not tacked any of these texts:

1. Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"
2. Phil. 2:5-7, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
3. Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [The Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever..."


The danger of denying the deity of Christ and the Atonement

A mob group -- 35 people in all -- are in court before a county judge to answer forat least 1 fellony each. The evidence is there before the judge, and there is no doubt as to the guilt of each of the defendants. In his closing statement, the representative spokesman of the group steps forward and says, "Your honour, it is clear that you have found our guilt -- however, we are providing a substitute for punishment. He's one of us who hasn't committed any crimes, and he's going to take the punishment for us." The judge is dumbfounded. "For all of you?", the judge replies, "But there are 35 of you. One man simply isn't sufficient -- I can only punish him for the crimes of one of you, he isn't sufficient for all of you, his suffering isn't worth that much."


The analogy is imperfect, but fitting. If Jesus Christ is only a man, even an important man we are to honour, His worth before the perfect legal justice of God is insufficient -- he could only be the substitute for one other man, or save himself -- he's not sufficient to save you AND I, only you OR I.

To deny that the Bible teaches that Jesus bears the sins of many in His perfect body on the tree is simply foolish. For the prophet Isaiah cries out concerning Him, "All we like sheep have gone astray, each has turned aside to his own way, and the Lord has laid on Him [the Lord Jesus] the iniquity of us all." (Isa. 53:6). Paul also testifies, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received; that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures..." (1 Cor. 15:3) As if more were necessary, the beloved disciple also says, "By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us..." (1 Jn. 3:16).

It simply is not sufficient to save a multitude no man can number (Rev. 7:9) that God punish only one man -- worthy man even. Only one who is infinitely valuable and precious in the sight of God could redeem, by paying for the sins of, such a mighty number as will be in the New Jerusalem.

I onc had a debate about the deity of Christ with a muslim that went much the same way this one is. May I ask that you take the time to engage in the (arduous!) task of reading my response to his claims one by one (many of which you've made here)? You can find it at :

muslimonline.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=3756&st=80&p=73051&#entry73051


Happy reading.


Yours in the Master's service,


Theo


P.S. Did you know that trinitarianism predates arianism by almost 200 years?

[ariandgabe]

Thank you again my dear friend Arron. (Theophilia)

Because you are refusing the calling and instruction of the Spirit of God, you are getting frustrated and this is why you are not able to understand me. You are lost as to where I stand, to be able to liken me to a Muslim or ANY of their ideas regarding Christ. (I feel that there is probably a lot of other scripture we do not see eye to eye on. I will ask you some questions later)

For the Last time;
I liken our Father God and His one and only Son (even though He has many sons) as I understand Adam and Eve being of the same source. (Can you see what I mean by this, if not, don’t bother reading further.)

When the two becomes one (man + woman), what do you think God meant by that? God knew what He was going to do before He did it, so why do you think He created (through His Son) Adam and THEN took Eve out of him? Why didn’t He just make Adam and Eve from the start?

It was to show to those that are driven by the desire for spiritual wisdom, how it was with GOD before His creations, and to give us some idea how it was even before His One and only begotten Son.

This is what God revealed to me, and NOT made up by someone or some idea. If you really believe that I sound like a Muslim, then you really do misunderstand me and we are not even on the same track. I see that you have been preconditioned and have accepted doctrine that is from man and you are unable to understand higher revelations. Just as you keep referring to my call name; ‘arien’ thinking that is what I meant, but you leave out the rest: ‘gabe’. You see, I have twins, a boy and a girl, and their name is Ariel (Ari) and Gabriel (Gabe) for short. So I used their names; ‘ari-and-gabe’.

One last time:

GOD IS

The SON (not talking about when He came down and was named Jesus yet) is the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, THE ONLY SON IN HIS LIKENESS AND IMAGE. The Son was the Son before any of this universe was ever created, and this you find too hard to comprehend. Once the Lord opens your eyes to that, the rest is easy.

(I really believe that it is YOU who thinks on the line of Muslims. You can’t seem to break away from the things that you have been taught by Christian scholars, just as Muslims can’t break away from their teachers either.)

Next, when God told His Son: “Let’s make man in our image, in our likeness” and made us out of dust from the earth, (you don’t think God and the Son was actually made of ‘the dust of the earth’ do you?) the ‘image’ God was saying is hidden and not very observable as of yet. I mean how can you compare (image) a sinful man made of dust to an Almighty God and His only begotten Son?

So the SONS likeness to God the Father is NOT the same as our likeness to God and His Son. The Son is Far more PERFECT, but still NOT the TOTAL God.

Ransom:
The SON is more then an adequate ransom for humanity, even if ALL the stars in heaven were earths fully populated by people, the Son would be still far more then adequate.
You see, you and scholars think that it was only the ‘son of man Jesus’ that died on the cross, but it was someone FAR MORE PRECIOUS then that, It was the SON of GOD who took on a physical body and died.

I have showed you also when God made Moses to be a God to Aaron and the Pharaoh. So how much more is THE SON worthy for us to refer to; “My Lord and my God”?

The Son has become our LORD because he died for us and if we follow Him, we can all come to the FATHER.

‘My God’ because the Father gave Him all that authority (as I showed you from scripture) and He’s the one that created us.

This is why Satan tempted Him;

Luke 4:3-4
3 And the devil said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."
4 But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.'" … NKJV (You think Satan and his demons would not know who Jesus was? He didn’t say ‘You are God the most high’ but said ‘Son of the Most High God’.)

Prayer:
In the name of Jesus Christ (whom even Christians chose to abolish with the invention of the ‘trinity’ doctrine) and by and through the help of the Holy Spirit, I ask you Father to open my friends eyes that he may see and understand how damaging this ‘trinity theory’ really is. It actually denies the Son, which in turn denies His atonement for our sins (like the Muslims). That with erroneous thinking like this, there is no more remission for their sins, thus they will remain in their sins which in turn is DEATH.

Please Lord, help them to understand.
I pray in Jesus name; Amen

[theophilia]

Dear Ariandgabe,


I understand what you mean just fine, because your ideas are not new. They've been around since the third century, and are still around today in groups like the unitarians, Jehovah's witnesses and mormons.

I'm not frustrated or angry with you; I've spoken to too many with theology like yours for it to cause that reaction in me any more

I don't need you to outline what you believe again; I understand that. I need you to explain these texts, that so far you have avoided:

1. Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"
2. Phil. 2:5-7, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
3. Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [The Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever..."

Yours in Him,


Theo

[ariandgabe]

Theophilia wrote:
I'm not frustrated or angry with you; I've spoken to too many with theology like yours for it to cause that reaction in me any more

I don't need you to outline what you believe again; I understand that. I need you to explain these texts, that so far you have avoided

Yes, I see what you mean, and again thanks.
(I defend my faith and the Words of the Bible as if my life depended on it, sometimes I just need to relax and take a deep breath.)

I too had many talks with the Jehovahs (did I spell that right? Because they said if we even spell His name wrong, it is blasphemy) witnesses and one time this 'Prophet' came and argued with me for 4 hours, came back with another felow and we went at it again, then another and another, at different times. At one point he just asked the questions and I answered them, he told his partner who was about to take out a book from his library he brought with him; "No, just listen to him."
I tell you that I really thought I had them converted, but I guess that even when I had their minds accept the truth, their hearts were far away from it.

The Jehovahs witnesses have many things right, but at the end, it is their prophets that have the last words. So sad.
My interpretation of the Father, Son and Holy ghost is different then theirs or the Mormons.

The above should have been enough to shine the light on what IS the Bibles version of the Three. But as with the Jehovahs witnesses , Mormons, Muslims, YOU too will accept only what Theo wants to accept.

I will once again answer your 1. Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"
2. Phil. 2:5-7, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
3. Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [The Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever..."

to 'prove' to you that it is not my explanation you are looking for and could never accept them no matter how accurate it is.

[theophilia]

Dear Ariandgabe,


I understand that it is of course God Himself who must illuminate the truth; but He doesn't do that apart from a proclamation of the truth (Rom. 10:14-16). If you believe to posess an understanding of the truth of the Gospel that I lack, you are duty bound to persuade me (2 Cor. 5:11, Matt. 28:19-20, Mk. 16:15). So I ask of you, and urge you in the Lord Jesus; account for these texts that seem to be inconsistent with your theology on this; the church dealt with theology like that you profess in 325 at Nicea, and all of these texts were ones that the arians of the day could not account for.


Yours in expectation,


Theo

[ariandgabe]

Dear Theo.
I jst found some info on Arian and his views and am studying it. It is amazing that my e-mail address that I made up as ariandgabe, which as I explained earlyer was my daughter 'Ariel' and my son 'Gabriel' (twins) names put together: ari-and-gabe to be cosistent with a man Arian who just happened to understand God and His Son the way I do?

I thank you for pointing that out for me. I will now go and study this mans ideas if they are really like mine in every way, and not only regards the 'trinity' concept.

In Jesus name
Odon.

[theophilia]

Dear Ariandagebe,


It is indeed an interesting co-incidence:)

Happy reading. Looking forward to your responses.



In Christ,


Theo