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Post by ilylo on Oct 12, 2008 12:46:13 GMT -5
These men like us all die . Do we serve the God of the dead or the God of the living? Your question has nothing to do with the topic.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 12, 2008 22:22:23 GMT -5
I believe the Christians reading here would totally agree with you in your statement above, and would look upon you as a sister in Christ because of this belief we share in common. The difference I see in Irvine and any other "man" who did as you describe above is that WmI claimed his method was GOD"S ONLY TRUE WAY on earth. Most other founders of orthodox churches do not make this claim; however, it is said that all cults make the claim to special revelation by one man and that they alone have God's only true/right way.
Many other new churches were also started in the 19th century by a man or group of men. The difference is they believe "We're Christians only, but not the only Christians." They don't exclude their Christian brothers and sisters. They didn't "unchristianize" them, as John Long puts it. Have you read John Long's Journal? Its on TTT. He was WmI's companion at the startup and he tells about it in detail. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/
When WmI made the "only way" claim--he entered to the role of a prophet by definition. Only a true prophet of God can have a message from God. WmI claimed that the method he was showing people was God's only true way on earth.
If that was true--then it had to be a message from God and WmI was given a job to do by God...so if he was a true prophet sent bgy God, then how could the other workers dare to put him out of their group and claim he was preaching wrong doctrine? Remember what happened to Korah when they murmured against Moses? The earth opened up and swallowed them up. God doenst look upon such matters lightly.
If it wasn't true that WmI was a prophet--then WmI was just the founder of another church in the 19th century, along with many other founders/churches that were started in that time period. His method was maybe better, maybe worse. Depends how the how the person looks at it and evaluates it. What they're looking for in a church, etc.
The above is true of MEN, but not of prophets, which WmI falls into due to his "only way" message. God keeps his true prophets true to the end...they dont go wrong. He doesnt send out an uncertain sound/trumphet. Bitter and sweet dont come from the same cistern, etc.
Does tracing history back a 110 years really qualify as "endless" genealogy...?? You can probably trace your own family back from memory 100 years...I know I can easily. Just 3 generations ago, my grandmother was born on Jan 1, 1900. That's 108 years. Matt 1 is all about who begat who and traces Jesus lineage back to Adam. This is done repeatedly in the OT. We love Ruth and Rahab who we know through this genealogy. Perhaps human genealogies are not what Paul meant by "endless genealogies."
Most Christians would agree with your wheat statement (which we've heard over and over--its not a new line of defense used by F&W at all, but one of the old ones they arent using much anymore at least not using it to the exes. )--but an analogy is an illustration and cannot be substituted for evidence. One can't prove history or that WmI was a true prophet from God with a message from God that his method was God's only right way from a man made analogy/compariso of things that aren't even inthe same class (seeds and belief systems=not same class).
This same Fruit you mention can be viewed in the lives of many Christians who do not fellowship with the 2x2s.
Christians all say the same as your sentence above. How is the 2x2 method different or better than other assemblies that Christians choose to fellowship with?
Christians agree with many of your sentiments above. All churches were started by men. No church is perfect or has perfect people in it, etc. Things become problematic for Christians when WmI's group judges Christians who do not fellowship with them as being Christians, and refuse to share communion with them.
Bottom line: If you take away the exclusivity and admit that WmI founded the church/fellowship you're a part of about 110 years ago, and that your church is not a continuation of the New Testament church--then many of us on this board are on the same wave length with you. Will you break bread with us?
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Post by ronhall on Oct 13, 2008 8:08:21 GMT -5
It is alright for you to state where your bottom line is, but I seriously doubt the bottom line will be dropped to accommodate your position.
You see, a dropped bottom line is just a new bottom line to challenge, nothing more. Once it starts dropping, where does the dropping stop?
On another note, my wife and I grow organic vegetables and fruits. The bottom line is no herbicides, no pesticides and no chemical fertilizers. Even though it would seem to be easier to control weeds and pests with sprays, we have learned effective methods that allow us to maintain our certification. We have people from the other side of the fence laughing at us and suggesting we are not too smart, work too hard, all that -- but when it comes time to sell our produce at a local upscale outlet, we get twice the price and more.
Am I tempted to spray a little RoundUp around the base of my fruit trees? Of course. Would a little RoundUp really hurt anything? I sometimes wonder. Why then don't I do it? Because I have committed to growing my stuff organically and I'm not about to jeopardize my certification.
Not only that, but I've come to enjoy working within the certification. My trees are more healthy, fruit set more consistent and heavier (I think it is because the bees like our place), soil deeper and more friable.
Do we have 'fellowship' with the other non-organic growers in our area? Somewhat, but our methods are different enough that we cannot use much of what is discussed. It just doesn't apply to our operation. So I guess we are exclusive in that area also.
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Post by nancy on Oct 13, 2008 13:58:12 GMT -5
Ron,
Appreciate your above analogy.
It's great when healthiness and purity are a consideration...
From which then we know we can safely draw our strength...
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 13, 2008 21:21:05 GMT -5
It is alright for you to state where your bottom line is, but I seriously doubt the bottom line will be dropped to accommodate your position. You see, a dropped bottom line is just a new bottom line to challenge, nothing more. Once it starts dropping, where does the dropping stop? On another note, my wife and I grow organic vegetables and fruits. The bottom line is no herbicides, no pesticides and no chemical fertilizers. Even though it would seem to be easier to control weeds and pests with sprays, we have learned effective methods that allow us to maintain our certification. We have people from the other side of the fence laughing at us and suggesting we are not too smart, work too hard, all that -- but when it comes time to sell our produce at a local upscale outlet, we get twice the price and more. Am I tempted to spray a little RoundUp around the base of my fruit trees? Of course. Would a little RoundUp really hurt anything? I sometimes wonder. Why then don't I do it? Because I have committed to growing my stuff organically and I'm not about to jeopardize my certification. Not only that, but I've come to enjoy working within the certification. My trees are more healthy, fruit set more consistent and heavier (I think it is because the bees like our place), soil deeper and more friable.Do we have 'fellowship' with the other non-organic growers in our area? Somewhat, but our methods are different enough that we cannot use much of what is discussed. It just doesn't apply to our operation. So I guess we are exclusive in that area also. None of what you wrote has a thing to do with the price of tea in China or with what I wrote above. Its a bunch of irrelevant rambling. Analogies don't prove anything. Some are good illustrations--but this one isn't since it doesnt compare items in the same category. Analogies cant disprove the 2x2 history that was hidden. Analogies about wheat and white horses and cake recipes can't prove the F&W fellowship is God's ONLY true way on earth. I have long collected F&W analogies that do not prove a thing. Some of my collection is on TTT and the reason they are worthless is also there. See: www.tellingthetruth.info/questions_askbook/05ask.php You may want to read about them before you throw out anymore. They just don't make the grade with many of us. And you also commit the fallacy of slippery slope re your "bottom line" comments. Anything can stop whenever the person in control decides it is time for it to stop. Another way to say this is: What is the basis for believing the F&W church is God's only true way on earth? Why do many truthers believe this is the case? ANSWER: Because they believe it is a continuation of the NT church--which is not true.
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Post by ilylo on Oct 13, 2008 23:03:53 GMT -5
It is alright for you to state where your bottom line is, but I seriously doubt the bottom line will be dropped to accommodate your position. You see, a dropped bottom line is just a new bottom line to challenge, nothing more. Once it starts dropping, where does the dropping stop? On another note, my wife and I grow organic vegetables and fruits. The bottom line is no herbicides, no pesticides and no chemical fertilizers. Even though it would seem to be easier to control weeds and pests with sprays, we have learned effective methods that allow us to maintain our certification. We have people from the other side of the fence laughing at us and suggesting we are not too smart, work too hard, all that -- but when it comes time to sell our produce at a local upscale outlet, we get twice the price and more. Am I tempted to spray a little RoundUp around the base of my fruit trees? Of course. Would a little RoundUp really hurt anything? I sometimes wonder. Why then don't I do it? Because I have committed to growing my stuff organically and I'm not about to jeopardize my certification. Not only that, but I've come to enjoy working within the certification. My trees are more healthy, fruit set more consistent and heavier (I think it is because the bees like our place), soil deeper and more friable. Do we have 'fellowship' with the other non-organic growers in our area? Somewhat, but our methods are different enough that we cannot use much of what is discussed. It just doesn't apply to our operation. So I guess we are exclusive in that area also. To what depth does your "living in denial" sink?
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otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by otto2 on Oct 14, 2008 3:14:44 GMT -5
Ron's analogy is flawed anyway, in the UK we have two organic certifying bodies, 'The Soil Association' and 'Organic Farmers and Growers'. The Soil Association have slightly more stringent requirements for their certification than OF&G, therefore they think they are better. They believe they are somehow more organic than OF&G. Does that sound familiar?
The flaw in the analogy gets worse because people are not falling like flies because they eat conventionally produced food, not by the consumption of pesticides anyway. Professor Hugh Pennington of Edinburgh University, a leading authority on such matters, has stated; "The amount of pesticide that a person would consume in one year eating conventionally produced food (non organic) would be the equivalent in toxicity to one cup of coffee!
People can live long and healthy lives by eating wholesome food, prepared in a traditional manner; and being careful with fat sugar and salt. Any requirements over and above that are the belief's of a righteous few; and at this point the analogy stands. As with 2x2ism, the benefits are more perceived than real
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Post by lin on Oct 14, 2008 5:44:53 GMT -5
Cherie Pardon me but your hate is showing
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 14, 2008 6:29:18 GMT -5
Cherie Pardon me but your hate is showing You're right - I do hate LIES and I love truth.
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Post by ilylo on Oct 14, 2008 7:21:09 GMT -5
Cherie Pardon me but your hate is showing Get real. You just can't keep up.
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Post by lin on Oct 14, 2008 8:18:11 GMT -5
Ilylo you are always little me too
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Post by ilylo on Oct 14, 2008 23:19:08 GMT -5
Ilylo you are always little me too Umm... ok.
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Post by ronhall on Oct 15, 2008 10:30:31 GMT -5
I understand the limits to an analogy. It wasn't my point to make this cover all aspects - only the one about the grower/customer relationship. In our case our customer is only interested in purchasing organic certified produce. No certification, no sale, no relationship.
Beyond that, I agree you can't push this much farther.
I also find it interesting about the various certification standards available. Somehow we seem to have just one on this side, but there can be quite a range of permissibility depending on the individual inspector. That also reminds me of something.
Back to the original premise, that being the analogy of me being the grower and God being the customer. He tell me what is acceptable to Him, I either accept it and develop a relationship or it's no deal. Simple as that.
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