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Post by asking on Apr 8, 2008 20:17:58 GMT -5
Do you think the Protestant-Catholic feuds in Northern Ireland, such as the IRA etc, led to the formation of what we know as THE TRUTH? Maybe some were so sick of denominational feuds that they broke from any connection to a denomination. Once they broke from the denominations, they sought to make a connection to the early New Testament Church. Trouble in Northern Ireland may have led to the early workers and friends turning against the denominational world. Rathmolyn and Crocknacrieve are in Northern Ireland.
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Post by ex-teenager on Apr 11, 2008 9:26:45 GMT -5
Do you think the Protestant-Catholic feuds in Northern Ireland, such as the IRA etc, led to the formation of what we know as THE TRUTH? Maybe some were so sick of denominational feuds that they broke from any connection to a denomination. Once they broke from the denominations, they sought to make a connection to the early New Testament Church. Trouble in Northern Ireland may have led to the early workers and friends turning against the denominational world. Rathmolyn and Crocknacrieve are in Northern Ireland. The worst of the troubles in Northern Ireland happend between the late 1960's and the early 1990's. The division of Ireland came in 1921. All these dates are after the 1897 date. It is possibily likely that the dis-content with the churchs in Ireland at the time lead to some sort of "revival" however must be noted William Irvine was Scottish.
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Post by Reformation on Apr 11, 2008 21:46:33 GMT -5
The Reformation began in Europe and lead to many freethinkers breaking away from the then dominant Catholic Church. There have always been break away or splinter groups of most religious endeavour.
In Ireland and the British Isles Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Plymouth Brethren, and others were already active before the turn of the century. William Irvine and his co-workers were not the first to form a new worship enterprise.
Wars have been fought over differences in Religion all over the world, haven't they. Just look how many kinds of Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc. exist. Religious thought is not static but constantly subject to change it seems.
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Post by Truth and Lies on Apr 12, 2008 1:01:52 GMT -5
I think we should lay to rest any idea that William Irvine formed a new movement - the so called Truth evolved out of the Faith Mission in which Irvine was a worker and initially operated along the same lines. Indeed Irvine remained a Faith Mission worker during the early days of his independant movement and only broke away formally following Irvine's recruitment of Edward Cooney (and the proceeds of the sale of his business).
As for the suggestion that Catholics were integral in the development of the new movement - this is ridiculous. As far as the early workers were concerned the catholic church was of the devil and catholics were destined for hell. (Which I always found interesting not least as the catholic church and the 2x2s are very similar in many ways!) I wonder do the workers share the same view today?
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Post by everlasting on Apr 17, 2008 10:06:36 GMT -5
From everlasting to everlasting thou art God. God is from the from forever.
Whatever is routed in God is His and is eternal. He has no beginning nor no end.
His way is the same. Trace it through Scripture. Trace it through primitive need to worship, god of this,gods of that ,sun gods, the need for worship is in mankind since time began.
Trace it through all religions, there is some recognizable truth in most of them.
Would you disagree?
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Post by not the catalyst on May 8, 2008 15:48:17 GMT -5
I think we should lay to rest any idea that William Irvine formed a new movement - the so called Truth evolved out of the Faith Mission in which Irvine was a worker and initially operated along the same lines. Indeed Irvine remained a Faith Mission worker during the early days of his independant movement and only broke away formally following Irvine's recruitment of Edward Cooney (and the proceeds of the sale of his business). As for the suggestion that Catholics were integral in the development of the new movement - this is ridiculous. As far as the early workers were concerned the catholic church was of the devil and catholics were destined for hell. (Which I always found interesting not least as the catholic church and the 2x2s are very similar in many ways!) I wonder do the workers share the same view today? Actually, as far as the early workers were concerned, anyone not associated with the movement was destined for hell - they detested the clergy of every church and I'm fairly sure the sentiments are still there although not so vocally expressed.
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Post by Scary Thought on May 8, 2008 21:44:38 GMT -5
It is a scary thought that the workers and friends might just be right in that there is only one way to heaven and it is through following Jesus and entering into his sufferings, partaking of the sufferings that sure as day are part of this path to heaven. Jesus told it as it is. The workers do likewise. It is unpopular, unappealing to human nature. It is a path of joy AND Sorrows. The joy is not the frivolous kind, but deep abiding. Others will tell of a primrose path, of once saved always saved, no effort required. The listener, the onlooker can take their pick.
Did Jesus say "Take up your cross and follow me," or not?
Did he mean a retty decorative cross and no pain?
We all know where the primrose path will lead.
Do not be deceived.
If we seek the perfect way of perfect peace that Jesus showed and not the perfect eople without faults of which he told us nothing, wee may find the path to eternal rest. If we are sincere.
If you are a seeker you will find the way.
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Post by gn on May 9, 2008 6:05:29 GMT -5
It is a scary thought that the workers and friends might just be right in that there is only one way to heaven and it is through following Jesus and entering into his sufferings, partaking of the sufferings that sure as day are part of this path to heaven. Jesus told it as it is. The workers do likewise. It is unpopular, unappealing to human nature. It is a path of joy AND Sorrows. The joy is not the frivolous kind, but deep abiding. Others will tell of a primrose path, of once saved always saved, no effort required. The listener, the onlooker can take their pick. Did Jesus say "Take up your cross and follow me," or not? Did he mean a retty decorative cross and no pain? We all know where the primrose path will lead. Do not be deceived. If we seek the perfect way of perfect peace that Jesus showed and not the perfect eople without faults of which he told us nothing, wee may find the path to eternal rest. If we are sincere. If you are a seeker you will find the way. That might have been true when the movement was first founded. Unfortunately today there is much that is not what was intended by the early workers and friends. For instance, they no longer "go in faith" - they know where they a re going, they often have cars to get there, a comfortable home when they arrive and even they are in areas where there are few friends and they "batch" (sp?) they are certain to meet the rent each month and always have enough to eat. As I see it, the only real personal sacrifices made (and they are significant in any circumstance) must denying oneself a chance to have a spouse and family, possessing in the broadest sense, that which must fit in a suitcase and the lack of privacy to some degree. There may be other sacrifices but I'm not sure they impact so strongly on personal liberty. These sacrifices are commendable, but to a large extent, the priests and nuns of the Catholic Church , at least in closed orders, make them too. In mainstream Protestant Churches, the ministers do not own their own homes; they belong to the church and ultimately the congregation. They are given a salary which comes from the church, again, ultimately from the congregation. They are expected to live on the salary, keep their house and family, run their car etc. on the salary and I don't see how that is so very different from what the workers do today. The only significant difference is they aren't married (they don't get to choose their partner), they have no dependents, they are given "donations" rather than a salary (no taxes!) and unless they are "batching" they share their house with another family. Hair-splitting maybe, but I think if someone challenges you to grow in faith and draw closer to God, not to go in for the frivilous things of the world, then I can't see how the message is so very different from what the workers preach except I notice that in the few different churches I've been in, there is a joy that I've not ever heard in all the breast-beating, long to do better testimonies I've heard in my many years of convention-going. How I often wished I'd hear that someone had overcome the wiles of Satan and thanked God with a song in their heart for his saving Grace.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 14, 2008 2:50:08 GMT -5
The Truth is eternal; He has always existed. Anything founded in 1897 is not the Truth -- stop calling it that.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 14, 2008 2:53:12 GMT -5
In mainstream Protestant Churches, the ministers do not own their own homes Huh? In mainstream Protestant Churches, most ministers DO own their own homes. If you're thinking of a particular denomination, name it -- but it's an uncommon one.
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Post by AHHH on May 14, 2008 3:00:54 GMT -5
Yes of course the fellowship is not known as the Truth.
I know this to be true because there was a little old lady in Outback Australia (not too far from Bert) who was once heard to say "we ought not to call ourselves the Truth". Does this not demonstrate that the the descriptor "The Truth" is not universal and therefore cannot be claimed as our worldwide 'name'.
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Claire
Senior Member
Posts: 489
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Post by Claire on May 14, 2008 3:21:07 GMT -5
In mainstream Protestant Churches, the ministers do not own their own homes Huh? In mainstream Protestant Churches, most ministers DO own their own homes. If you're thinking of a particular denomination, name it -- but it's an uncommon one. ....mmm .... is this a play on words on your part? yes, the ministers might indeed own their own houses, but my experience of ministers and their families in Church of Ireland Presybterian Church in Ireland Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland is that a house/bungalow was provided by the church to be their home. /c
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Post by ex-teenager on May 14, 2008 3:35:35 GMT -5
What happens when a minister retires? does the church provide him with a home? Any I know seem fairly well off.
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Post by gn on May 14, 2008 15:21:03 GMT -5
What happens when a minister retires? does the church provide him with a home? Any I know seem fairly well off. I'm not familiar with a significant number of retired clergy, but in one case the minister's small church was joined with another larger one in a nearby town and the retired minister remained in his house until he died. He paid a peppercorn rent but still had to meet the running costs of the house and his car from his state pension and church pension and the modest allowance given to him by the church when he helped out in any of the neighbouring churches. After he died, his wife remained in the house under the same economic conditions for a few years until she became unable to cope on her own and then she moved to live with her daughter. Another minister in our area has recently retired and he and his wife bought a very small bungalow in the same village where he'd spent the previous 40 years. Neither he nor the other minster mentioned ever seemed particularly well off to me. No sharp suits or expensive clothing for their wives and always an average car and not always very new. I do know of one female minister who had the good fortune to be married to a high-earning husband but even then she drove only the sort of car that her stipend would permit. She's not retired nor close to it, but she did ruefully say to me one day, that it was a good thing she was called by God to the ministry as she certainly wasn't in it for the money. And to answer Called Unto Liberty, the ministers of the churches that were mentioned above by Caith categorically do NOT own their own homes. They do not have possession of the deeds, they cannot sell it when they move parishes/presbytries and indeed, cannot remain in the house after retirement without the express permission of the local congregation.
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Post by gn on May 14, 2008 15:47:25 GMT -5
The Truth is eternal; He has always existed. Anything founded in 1897 is not the Truth -- stop calling it that. Well, I expect you'll need to send a "round robin" to the workers in Ireland then. They have an inclination to refer to the meetings/fellowship/church as "The Truth". Why, not two months ago an elderly and well-respected brother worker commented that his father "met The Truth in Belfast in 19xx" The date escapes me, but the fact remains that he referred to the meetings as "The Truth". There is a propensity by the workers and friends alike to fail to recognise the difference between "The Truth" as the Godhead and the Word and the "The Truth" meetings. In fact, I'd guess most don't understand there is a difference.
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Post by irvinegrey on Sept 25, 2008 20:18:01 GMT -5
The time has arrived for some serious research work for my Master of Philosophy and my topic is the history, sociology and theology of a group of Christians who claim to have no name but are variously known by outsiders as the 2x2s, Cooneyites and when I was growing up in Co Fermanagh, Northern Ireland very simply called ‘the meeting people’. It is not my intention to give them a name but for the purpose of this work and for brevity I will use the term 2x2s. In applying this name it is not my intention to be either arbitrary or offensive. I am aware that today there are only a small number who would have any association with Edward Cooney and what we today call the 2x2s are a follow on from those who excommunicated Cooney in 1928.
Historically I do know that the 2x2s have followed on in the footsteps of a work started in 1897 by William Irvine, a Faith Mission pilgrim from Scotland holding missions in Tipperary, Ireland. It was there that Edward Cooney, an Enniskillen man first met Irvine. It is generally accepted that in those early days Irvine and Edward Cooney emerged as co leaders.
Initially there are several aspects of this work that I need all of the information possible so as to build an accurate picture. For Irvine and Cooney the framework of Matthew 10 was the model that must be applied in sending forth workers. I understand that this also applies today.
How do the 2x2s manage without formal organziation? What criterion is used to decide who is in fellowship and who is not? How do they decide which workers need support? What sorts of behavioural barriers do they erect to help maintain a sense of common identity? How readily do they excommunicate those who cross such lines? Are there any procedures that could be used as an alternative to excommunication for less serious breaches? Is there a way back to the meetings after excommunication?
I want your views on all of these questions. I am interested to hear of your family’s history with the movement. I want to know what you find attractive and conversely what you find unattractive about the 2x2s. I want to hear about any negative experiences you have had within the 2x2s or later if you decided to leave.
I would value your views on what you have perceived to be failures to discipline or adequately control either members or workers who you think acted in a manner contrary to their Christian testimony. Please stick to the facts, I cannot countenance rumour or hearsay.
You may have old letters, photographs, press cuttings or other material of historical interest. Any of this material will be copied and returned to you. You can email me on irvinegrey@yahoo.co.uk, you can call me on 00447831804000 or if you live in Ireland or the UK and would like to meet personally with me to provide details I will arrange that. But wherever you are in the world, if you have a story to tell I want to hear it! I must emphasise that anything you tell me will be used only as part of my academic research and for no other purpose. Should you wish to check my bona fides as research student at Queen’s University Belfast, Northern Ireland my student number is 17889049.
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Post by irvinegrey on Sept 27, 2008 16:14:50 GMT -5
Thanks, these are indeed helpful. In addition to this I need personal input and would welcome all contributions however small or large.
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Post by toffeecrumble on Oct 3, 2008 8:39:04 GMT -5
The Truth was founded by Jesus. I am the Way the Truth and the Life. The Truth as a Way was fortold by the ancient prophets ie. Isaiah.
The Truth of the Gospel has been followed to varying degrees by Christian groups and churches. William Irvine and his co workers followed as best they could.
That does not establish him as a founder of the Truth, but a leader of a group of people in an effort to get back to scripture.
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Post by september on Oct 5, 2008 11:13:57 GMT -5
Nobody is arguing that Jesus founded founded/is the Truth.
The problem is, the workers and friends use the terminology "The Truth" when referring to the fellowship. This is obviously not just incorrect, but misleading as illustrated by the question posed by the original poster: "led to the formation of what we know as THE TRUTH". I would imagine there are a great number of professing people unaware of the distinction.
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Post by nanax8 on Oct 6, 2008 1:12:18 GMT -5
I differ in opinion, and say that the foundation of the fellowship referred to as "The Truth" is Jesus. Jesus said, "I am THE Way, THE Truth and THE Life." When we follow the teachings of Jesus, we are following THE TRUTH. When we say we are "in the Truth" it just identifies us as a group of people who believe the teachings of Jesus. I shared these thoughts in another message today, and it fits this thread also: The first time I heard about William Irvine was in 1984 when the Secret Sect was distributed. Coonie and Irvine were both minsiters, referred to as "workers"; however, both of them did not continue in our fellowship, just as there are some workers today who don't continue because of preaching wrong doctrine. Therefore, there is "nothing new is under the sun." Jesus is the founder of what I believe. Jesus is the Truth, Jesus is the Way, Jesus is the Life, Jesus is the Word. More personally, he is my Saviour, my Master, my Heavenly Bridegroom. What I believe is by personal revelation. I am saved because I believe in Jesus and the cleansing power of his blood and the cleansing power of his word. I am not saved through osmosis, just because my parents or grandparents were believers! I believe that God can give revelation to any man who is honest and wants to know God's will, such as he revealed it to Irvine. Many a man and woman have asked God, "where is the Good Way that we read about in the bible?" That is what happened to Irvine. That is what happened to my grandparents. My maternal and paternal grandparents were Lutherans who came to the USA from Norway and Sweden. My grandfather had attended a seminary to become a preacher, but he didn't like what was taught in seminary, because it was not according to what he read in the bible. He told them that he could not teach what he didn't believe. When he was introduced to the Truth as it is in Jesus, he recognized "this is what we read about in the bible." Brother ministers came to my paternal grandparents community in northern MN. There were many people in the community that "professed" to serve Jesus. They started to have fellowship meetings in their home as you read about in the bible. My maternal parents were the first ones in their community to accept the Good News of the gospel. They, too, began to have a Sunday morning worship service in their home. My parents met at a Christian convention, married, and I was raised in this fellowship. I have always loved this fellowship. I met my husband at a Christian convention, also, and our children and grandchildren go to the meetings. Irvine wanted to teach what he read about in the bible. He was an instrument used by God to preach the gospel. Unfortunately, he got very mixed up (I've read the history) just like many others through the years....... The Apostles Paul and Peter were led by the Spirit of God. That doesn't mean they were perfect. It doesn't mean that they didn't make mistakes. There was only One who was perfect, Jesus. David made mistakes, Peter denied Christ, Moses couldn't enter into the promised land......... yet, it is very evident that they were led by the Spirit of God. Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ." The only ministers that are safe to follow are those who manifest the spirit of Christ by what they say and what they do. How we live our lives, and the spirit we possess, proves if we have the "born again" spiritual nature. In I Tim 1:3-4 Paul said, "charge some that they teach no other doctrine, neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies that minister questions rather than godly edifying..." It is not necessary to trace what I believe all the way back to Jesus, without any breaks in the link.. that is "endless genealogies" that causes division and strife. It's not profitable. Wheat is wheat. Wheat can be stored in a grain bin for hundreds of years and kept clean and free of bugs. If it is planted it will produce the same product... wheat. God is able to preserve what is pure and true. His Word, Jesus, when planted in the hearts of men and women will produce the same product......... "Christ in you, the hope of Glory!" Jesus said we are known by the fruit we bear. Is our fruit bitterness, hatred, disputing, arguing, fearing, doubting?? or is our fruit love, peace, kindness, mercy, forgiveness? We are known by our fruit. I acknowledge that the people in our fellowship have many of the same type of challenges, struggles and problems that other fellowships face. We are not exempt from problems. Our ministers are facing the problems, acknowledging the problems and taking action to correct the problems. Many people have left our fellowship through the years because problems were not dealt with appropriately. As a result there are many anti-"Truth Fellowship" books written, and much effort has been spent to try and destroy our fellowship. The internet has enlightened us to several problems, and that is OK. The error has been in man, not with what Jesus taught. All the anti-"Truth Fellowship" books and access to the internet has not destroyed my faith, because my faith is not in man, it is in Jesus Christ. I have a genuine joy that no man can take from me! Man can disappoint us and betray us, but Jesus never disappoints. Many people are saying that our fellowship is losing members, and that may be true in other states and countries, but we have churches added, more young lives who offer for the ministry, and about 50 children in our field. We are not only "surviving"... we are thriving!
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Post by fred on Oct 6, 2008 4:40:41 GMT -5
Nevertheless ,there is nothing in the above post which refutes the historically established facts that Irvine (and several others with him) are the men who first began in the manner in which we know now as the friends and workers fellowship.
What that means to you personally or how it affects you faith is beside the point.
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Post by lin on Oct 7, 2008 13:06:04 GMT -5
Speaking of the mumble jumble about founders Was Einstein the founder of the theory of relativity? Was Newton the founder of Gravity? Was Edison or Franklin the founder of electricity? Was Joseph Priestley the founder of oxygen? Carl Wilhelm Scheele the founder of molybdenum and chlorine?
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Post by lin on Oct 7, 2008 13:08:44 GMT -5
No they only revealed it existed. Many of these things it took many men to prove they are real
It existed a long time before they revealed it The same thing with William Irvine. It was there all the time. He was used for a time to reveal it. You can't found something thatt already is existing.
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Post by ilylo on Oct 7, 2008 21:46:43 GMT -5
Nothing so sad as a person who willingly or willfully lies to themselves. When they lie to others, the others have the option of accepting or refusing the lie on the basis of its merits, or lack thereof. But when you lie to yourself, who stands up for you?
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Post by september on Oct 9, 2008 4:50:39 GMT -5
Speaking of the mumble jumble about founders Was Einstein the founder of the theory of relativity? Was Newton the founder of Gravity? Was Edison or Franklin the founder of electricity? Was Joseph Priestley the founder of oxygen? Carl Wilhelm Scheele the founder of molybdenum and chlorine? The statement posed in the thread " The Truth was founded in Northern Ireland in 1897" is accurate in as far as we know the date and inaccurate in that we think Irvine et al were inspired in Southern Ireland. It is accurate in that the friends and workers refer to the fellowship as "The Truth". No need for hair-splitting or florid prose; I have been around the meetings long enough to know that questions are asked "is he/she belonging to The Truth?" Or " He/she has left The Truth". Does this mean the person belongs to or has left Jesus? Yes, in as much as it means that only those belonging to the fellowship belong to Jesus, but what it really means to the friend or worker who may have posed the question, does this person belong to or has left the fellowship. The fellowship may not take a name officially, but "The Truth" is one name which the faithful recognise the world over, however misleading it may be. It's not so very difficult to understand now, is it?
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Post by irvinegrey on Oct 11, 2008 13:42:35 GMT -5
A few corrections in the interests of accuracy: Truth and Lies April 12th. Your remark that William Irvine only left the Faith Mission when joined by Edward Cooney with the proceeds of his business. Cooney did not sell the business. He left the family business in Enniskillen that was owned and run by his father. He was disinherited because of his ministry. Calledutoliberty May 14th and Teenager4now May 14th. The following churches provide housing for their ministers. The Church of Ireland - a rectory and Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists - a manse. On retirement they are normally expected to provide their own housing. it should be pointed out that while ministers in these denominations may retire ffrom actula pastoral duties at around 70 most continue, health permitting, to be active in ministry. The best example I know is a local 93 year old Church of Ireland rector who still takes Sunday services.
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Post by nancy on Oct 11, 2008 14:40:45 GMT -5
I concur with you, nanax8:
"Wheat is wheat." Glad for what you described and expressed re: that.
Appreciated your thoughts too, lin.
n.
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Post by lin on Oct 11, 2008 16:01:14 GMT -5
These men like us all die . Do we serve the God of the dead or the God of the living?
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