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Post by Rob O on Jun 18, 2006 19:36:32 GMT -5
Hi Nathan,
My questions got lost in the other thread, which is fine, but I would like to explore this from your point of view. I am not asking to try and trap you. I just want to attempt to see where you're coming from.
In the other thread many examples of false teaching were given.
But what exactly is false teaching? How do you define it?
I ask because one should be able to say what false teaching is to be able to give examples of it.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 18, 2006 22:38:41 GMT -5
Ok,
1) So if someone teaches that Jesus is not God the Son, is that false teaching?
2) What do you mean by "once saved, always saved"?
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Post by Zorro on Jun 18, 2006 23:21:07 GMT -5
Nathan9: If you were to ask them this: Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God means the same as God the Son. If they deny this then that is false teaching.
When a person hears the false teaching, as per your example.....what should they do?
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Post by state on Jun 18, 2006 23:21:54 GMT -5
FYI: "preservation of the saints" is not OSAS.
Perseverance of the Saints does not mean "once saved always saved". This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. "Once saved always saved" is more keenly given the name "Perseverance of the sinner" instead of "the saint". For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and then still "persevere to the end". Perseverance of the saints does not teach this. Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end. John 6:37-39, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."Phil. 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"1 Thess. 5:23-24, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."2 Tim. 4:18, "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."1 Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."phesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
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Post by Rob O on Jun 18, 2006 23:22:35 GMT -5
1) So if a worker teaches that Jesus is not God the Son and they deny that "Son of God" and "God the Son" are interchangeable in relation to Jesus, then that worker would be giving a false teaching?
Naive. That's new one. I've been called a lot of things on here, but that must be the first time I've been called naive.
2) I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing. If you mean that someone can do whatever they want and not lose their salvation, then no, I do not believe that.
I do however believe in the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints in which it is taught that believers will not lose their salvation.
Ps. The post prior to mine was put in as I was typing my own reply. It says the same thing.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 18, 2006 23:25:28 GMT -5
No. I do not believe that OSAS and the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints are the same thing. One is a carefully expounded doctrine. The other is a flippant caricature.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 18, 2006 23:28:01 GMT -5
See post #5.
Ps.
1) So if a worker teaches that Jesus is not God the Son and they deny that "Son of God" and "God the Son" are interchangeable in relation to Jesus, then that worker would be giving a false teaching?
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Post by Rob O on Jun 18, 2006 23:42:56 GMT -5
Excellent. We've finally made some ground.
It was never OSAS. That is a shallow misinterpretation. And it is not the same doctrine. You probably could not find a mention of OSAS prior to the 19th or 20th centuries. However, the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints is discussed by the biblical writers and several of the early church fathers.
If by "perserverance of the saints" you are referring to the caricature labelled OSAS, then yes, I think OSAS is a false teaching.
But I do not think that the genuine doctrine of the perserverance of the saints is false. Obviously, or I would not believe it.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 18, 2006 23:57:18 GMT -5
What about before "KNOWING"? Are they teaching something true and then it only becomes false after they know better? Or is it the case that they are teaching something false and they then learn and start to teach something true?
Certainly. I'm looking.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 0:08:06 GMT -5
While I'm looking maybe you could respond to my questions. Thanks.
What about before "KNOWING"? Are they teaching something true and then it only becomes false after they know better? Or is it the case that they are teaching something false and they then learn and start to teach something true?
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 0:22:48 GMT -5
Nope. I can't find my list of citations from the early church father's - and I can't be bothered combing through all their writings again so I will leave it.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 0:28:31 GMT -5
Don't twist things Nathan.
I have never believed in OSAS as you think it to be. I have for a long time believed in the perserverance of the saints. In the past I may have used the label OSAS in discussion because that is what other people use but I do not nor ever have believed in what commonly passes as OSAS.
The fact that the same verses are used is meaningless. Those who deny the deity of Christ use the same verses as Trinitarians. It does not mean they use them in the same way.
BTW, "Interesting questions" doesn't qualify as an answer. Could you answer please?
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 0:40:41 GMT -5
Not all the ECF did teach it. Like most things there were differences of opinion. What is important among the ECF is what unites them, not what they differed over. You may also be surprised to learn that among the ECF were universalists - those who believe that in the end everyone is saved.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 0:49:10 GMT -5
Skip that. Augustine distinguished between two types of believers. Those who are given the gift of perseverance and those who aren't. www.newadvent.org/fathers/1512.htmI know there were others. I cannot remember who off-hand.
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Post by tonathan on Jun 19, 2006 1:03:15 GMT -5
No. I do not believe that OSAS and the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints are the same thing. One is a carefully expounded doctrine. The other is a flippant caricature. So what is perservance of the saint doctrine? What are the verses to support this doctrine? Here is a start - Perseverance of the Saints This doctrine is clearly taught in these passages, John 10:28,29; Romans 11:29; Phil 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5. It, moreover, follows from a consideration of (1) the immutability of the divine decrees (Jeremiah 31:3; Matthew 24:22-24; Acts 13:48; Romans 8:30); (2) the provisions of the covenant of grace (Jeremiah 32:40; John 10:29; 17:2-6); (3) the atonement and intercession of Christ (Isaiah 53:6,11; Matthew 20:28; 1 Peter 2:24; John 11:42; 17:11,15,20; Romans 8:34); and (4) the indwelling of the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; 2co 1:21,22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:14; 1 John 3:9).
1 Samuel 2:9; Nehemiah 9:16-19; Psalm 31:23, 32:7,23,28-33, 38, 84:5-7, 89:30-33, 94:14, 97:10, 121:7, 125:1; Proverbs 2:8; Isaiah 40:30, 54:4-10; Jeremiah 32:38-42; Matthew 18:6, 12-14, 24:22-24; Luke 1:74, 22:32; John 3:36, 4:13, 5:24, 6:37-40, 51, 8:31, 10:4, 8, 27-29, 17:11, 15; Romans 6:1-4, 7:24-8:4, 28-39, 11:29, 14:14; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9, 3:15, 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:11-14, 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:12, 4:18; Hebrews 3:14, 7:25, 10:14, 36-39, 13:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 3:8; 1 John 2:19, 3:9, 5:4, 13, 18; Jude 1, 24. Read more at monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/perseverance.html
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Post by tonathan on Jun 19, 2006 1:05:02 GMT -5
Can a Christian lose his or her Salvation? One major debate within Christian circles is the question of whether or not a Christian can lose his or her salvation. Arminians argue that true believers can sin so much that they lose their faith and perish. Some Christians respond by arguing that once a person professes faith in Jesus, he is eternally secure in his salvation and—even if he commits complete apostasy (“falls away”) and vocally rejects Jesus Christ—will still go to heaven, for “once saved, always saved.” In light of the biblical doctrine of predestination, how should we understand the security we have under God’s care? There have been three main approaches to the question: 1. Classic Arminianism • One must persevere in faith to be saved. • True believers can lose their faith. • Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned. “The believer who loses his faith is damned.” 2. Antinomianism • One need not persevere in faith to be saved. • True believers can lose their faith. • Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed. “The believer who loses his faith is saved.” 3. Classic Calvinism • One must persevere in faith to be saved. • True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift. • Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned. • Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with. • God will preserve true believers and they will be saved. “The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.” Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data. How can an Arminian read Romans 8, then tell true believers that they may screw up and go to hell??? Then again, how can Charles Stanley read Hebrews 6 and 10 and tell unbelievers who once professed faith not to worry, that they will be saved??? Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word. I believe that only the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data. Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But both of these views are wrong is assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19). Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. As the Westminster Assembly concluded, Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to be chief among the apostles! Two biblical principles must be held side-by-side: 1. You Must Persevere until the End: God's Requirement of His People God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change. • Colossians 1:21-23 • 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6 • Hebrews 10:26-31 • Hebrews 12:1 2. You Will Persevere Until the End: God's Preservation of His People We will persevere because God preserves us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them. • John 6:38-40 • John 10:28-29 • Romans 8:28-39 • Philippians 1:4-6 • Philippians 2:12-13 • 1 John 2:19 This first set of texts cannot be used to refute the second (Arminianism); nor can the second set of texts be used to refute the first (cheap grace). The point that makes the two compatible is the biblical teaching that faith (while commanded of everyone) is a gift from God to His elect. If faith is simply a human action of a free will, then it can be lost. But if saving faith is God's gift, then it cannot be lost. Can professing Christians fall away? Yes, and they will perish. Can true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ. The Bible teaches us that professing Christians who leave the faith were never truly believers (1 John 2:19; and notice the qualification even in Hebrews 10:39). “They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.” —Westminster Confession of Faith 17.1, drafted by the Westminster Assembly at the request of the British Parliament 1643-47 gregscouch.homestead.com/files/eternalsecurity.htm
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 1:25:20 GMT -5
Augustine builds a case for his point of view. It isn't a matter of looking for an easy quote. One needs to read through his whole argument to follow the whats and whys of his thinking.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 19, 2006 1:30:21 GMT -5
Nathan9, did you click this: BOOK II -- On the Gift of Perseverance ? If so, you should have gotten: www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htmA TREATISE ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, BY AURELIUS AUGUSTIN, BISHOP OF HIPPO. If not, I wonder how you research.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 19, 2006 1:38:49 GMT -5
Nathan9, why did you remove your 2:31am post?
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 19, 2006 1:41:46 GMT -5
Skip that. Augustine distinguished between two types of believers. Those who are given the gift of perseverance and those who aren't. www.newadvent.org/fathers/1512.htmI know there were others. I cannot remember who off-hand. I tried the link but don't know where to look for Augustine's quotes.... can you post Augustine's teaching on Preservance of the Saints perhaps others would like to read it also. Nathan9's deleted 2:31am post requested Rob to post the link to what Augustine presented so that all could read it.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 19, 2006 1:47:34 GMT -5
Because I checked Rob O. link and it didn't help me to find Augustine's article but your link did, greg Lee. You are so smart. Thanks. Is that a personal attack?
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 19, 2006 2:01:16 GMT -5
Is that a personal attack? I'll take that with a grain of salt.....and maybe a little salsa, too.
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 19, 2006 9:08:13 GMT -5
Rob, does this quote from St. Cyprian help?
"We add, also, and say, 'Thy will be done, as in heaven so in earth;' not that God should do what He wills, but that we may be able to do what God wills. For who resists God, that He may not do what He wills? But since we are hindered by the devil from obeying with our thought and deed God's will in all things, we pray and ask that God's will may be done in us; and that it may be done in us we have need of God's good will, that is, of His help and protection, since no one is strong in his own strength, but he is safe by the grace and mercy of God." (On the Lord's Prayer, 14)
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 9:19:21 GMT -5
Thanks Clay.
I think Cyprian was very close to Augustine in thinking. I was reading him today. Ambrose, as referred to by Augustine, also seems to hold a similar vein of thought but without the development that is apparent in Augustine.
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 19, 2006 9:26:15 GMT -5
Or this one from Augustine.
"Lest the will itself should be deemed capable of doing any good thing without the grace of God, after saying, 'His grace within me was not in vain, but I have laboured more abundantly than they all,' he immediately added the qualifying clause, 'Yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.' In other words, Not I alone, but the grace of God with me. And thus, neither was it the grace of God alone, nor was it he himself alone, but it was the grace Of God with him. For his call, however, from heaven and his conversion by that great and most effectual call, God's grace was alone, because his merits, though great, were yet evil." (Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, 5:12)
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 9:40:19 GMT -5
This is interesting. It looks like Thomas Aquinas thought similarly to Augustine: "I answer: we speak of perseverance in three senses. In one sense, it means the habit of mind by which a man stands firm, and is not dissuaded from what virtue demands by sudden tribulations. Perseverance in this sense is related to tribulations as continence is related to desires and pleasures, as the philosopher says in 7 Ethics 7. In a second sense, it means the habit by which a man maintains his intention of persevering in good to the last. Perseverance in both senses is bestowed along with grace, as are also continence and the other virtues. In a third sense, it means the actual continuing in good to the end of life. A man does not need any other habitual grace in order to persevere in this sense. But he does need the help of God to direct him, and to guard him from the shocks of temptation, as is apparent from the preceding article. It is therefore necessary for him to ask God for this gift of perseverance even after he has been justified by grace, so that he may be delivered from evil until the end of life. For there are many to whom grace is given, to whom it is not given to persevere in grace." www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/nature_grace.viii.i.x.html
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Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by _ on Jun 19, 2006 19:36:57 GMT -5
Can a Christian lose his or her Salvation? One major debate within Christian circles is the question of whether or not a Christian can lose his or her salvation. Arminians argue that true believers can sin so much that they lose their faith and perish. Some Christians respond by arguing that once a person professes faith in Jesus, he is eternally secure in his salvation and—even if he commits complete apostasy (“falls away”) and vocally rejects Jesus Christ—will still go to heaven, for “once saved, always saved.” In light of the biblical doctrine of predestination, how should we understand the security we have under God’s care? There have been three main approaches to the question: 1. Classic Arminianism • One must persevere in faith to be saved. • True believers can lose their faith. • Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned. “The believer who loses his faith is damned.” 2. Antinomianism • One need not persevere in faith to be saved. • True believers can lose their faith. • Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed. “The believer who loses his faith is saved.” 3. Classic Calvinism • One must persevere in faith to be saved. • True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift. • Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned. • Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with. • God will preserve true believers and they will be saved. “The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.” Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data. How can an Arminian read Romans 8, then tell true believers that they may screw up and go to hell??? Then again, how can Charles Stanley read Hebrews 6 and 10 and tell unbelievers who once professed faith not to worry, that they will be saved??? Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word. I believe that only the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data. Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But both of these views are wrong is assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19). Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. As the Westminster Assembly concluded, Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to be chief among the apostles! Two biblical principles must be held side-by-side: 1. You Must Persevere until the End: God's Requirement of His People God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change. • Colossians 1:21-23 • 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6 • Hebrews 10:26-31 • Hebrews 12:1 2. You Will Persevere Until the End: God's Preservation of His People We will persevere because God preserves us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them. • John 6:38-40 • John 10:28-29 • Romans 8:28-39 • Philippians 1:4-6 • Philippians 2:12-13 • 1 John 2:19 This first set of texts cannot be used to refute the second (Arminianism); nor can the second set of texts be used to refute the first (cheap grace). The point that makes the two compatible is the biblical teaching that faith (while commanded of everyone) is a gift from God to His elect. If faith is simply a human action of a free will, then it can be lost. But if saving faith is God's gift, then it cannot be lost. Can professing Christians fall away? Yes, and they will perish. Can true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ. The Bible teaches us that professing Christians who leave the faith were never truly believers (1 John 2:19; and notice the qualification even in Hebrews 10:39). “They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.” —Westminster Confession of Faith 17.1, drafted by the Westminster Assembly at the request of the British Parliament 1643-47 gregscouch.homestead.com/files/eternalsecurity.htmDid you read this nathan?
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Post by Rob O on Jun 19, 2006 20:08:35 GMT -5
Nathan,
No, I do not think the saints can wholly depart the grace of God in such a way that they are lost to salvation.
Augustine, Cyprian, Thomas Aquinas (and probably Ambrose) believed that perseverance is a gift that can be received through praying for it and believing that God will give it. These men thought that a believer without the gift of perseverance could be lost, but they denied that a believer with the gift of perseverance could be lost.
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