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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 20, 2007 10:11:50 GMT -5
Edy A while back you explained to the board exactly what were the differences in the Jews and the Israelites, etc. to the point I have been tongue-tied to use either term since for fear I would be using the wrong one!
Now I find myself writing something where I need to be precise and accurate with my terminology. Could you please review/explain to us again these terms and any others that people get confused.
In Jesus days, was there a distinction made in those from Galilee and those from Judea? Did the tribes who came back after captivity just blend in with Judah? Or did they keep a distinctive title for themselves?
Thank you! Looking forward to your input. If you can refer me to any outside material, that would be great also.
Cherie
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Post by Sylvestra on Oct 20, 2007 14:35:03 GMT -5
Edy A while back you explained to the board exactly what were the differences in the Jews and the Israelites, etc. to the point I have been tongue-tied to use either term since for fear I would be using the wrong one! Now I find myself writing something where I need to be precise and accurate with my terminology. Could you please review/explain to us again these terms and any others that people get confused. In Jesus days, was there a distinction made in those from Galilee and those from Judea? Did the tribes who came back after captivity just blend in with Judah? Or did they keep a distinctive title for themselves? Thank you! Looking forward to your input. If you can refer me to any outside material, that would be great also. Cherie Dear Cherie, If you'd like to share by PM what you are writing, I'll see if I can help you with correct terminology also. I'll try to make this basic, and then you can question what needs to be expanded for your purposes. The children of Israel are all of the 12 original tribes together, and were called "children of Israel" and "Israel" (until they split in 1 Kings 11) and "house of Jacob". None of the tribes or their ancestors were called "Jews". They were not even called Hebrews until "Eber" (Abraham's direct ancestor). It is from Eber that Hebrews came. When the 12 tribes split they became the house of Judah (the "prince" being Judah). This house was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and part of the Levites; the other house of the house of Israel (the 'prince' being Ephraim') and was made up of the remainder of the tribes. After the split, Jerusalem was the capital of the house of Judah and when we read (such as) Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, it is referring to the house of Judah. At this moment I can't think of the city that represents the house of Israel, but I'll let you know when I remember or find it. I do know that whenever "Ephraim" is mentioned after the split, it means the house of Israel. Further, the house of Israel was taken into captivity into Assyria and none ever returned to the "holy lands" as a tribe. They are the tribes that are referred to in the Bible as "dispersed" or "in dispersion". These are also the tribes that God divorced and later Jesus sent the 12 disciples to them first to give them the news of his arrival. The house of Judah was put into captivity by Babylon at a different time than the house of Israel. Ezra and Nehemiah give us some of the history of those who returned from house of Judah to rebuild the temple and the wall. It was Jews (house of Judah) that dwelt in the holy lands at the time of Jesus. In 126 AD they had forced the Edomites into their Judaic religion, so at the time of Jesus, many of the "Jews" were Edomites by race and Judaic by religion. There were also Samaritans among them because they were the people that the King of Babylon allowed to move there when the house of Judah was taken off their lands. Now, as far as who the Galileans were. MOST of the people around Galilee in Jesus day were Benjamites of the house of Judah, and therefore "Jews". (It is often assumed that all the original 12 disciples except Judas were Benjamites, but there is no hard evidence of this.) They would also be considered of "the children of Israel" (because their ancestors were part of the entire 12 tribes), and in a very, very broad sense might be called Israelites. However, using the term Israelites for the Galileans in Jesus day might mislead anyone who understands the difference between Israel and Judah at that time. I will put some outside materials in the next post I hope you'll share some of your writings with us! Best!!!! Edy
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Post by Sylvestra on Oct 20, 2007 15:12:24 GMT -5
Cherie, Here are some books (and I'm sure there are many others) that deal with this subject: Jacob's Pillar - A Biblical Historical Study, by E. Raymond Capt (and just about anything he writes! He is an awesome man that I know personally. He is a "biblical archaeologist.) Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright, by J.H. Allen (This was published in 1917 and is a very heavy read!) The "Lost" Ten Tribes of Israel...Found! by Steven M. Collins. My favorite: The Struggle for the Birthright, by Stephen Jones. gods-kingdom-ministries.org/Birthright/Default.htm This book can be read on line. (I think you would also be very fascinated with his book "Secrets of Time", but you need to read The Struggle for the Birthright first.) Let me know if I can be helpful with anything else! Edy
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Post by Sylvestra on Oct 20, 2007 15:34:26 GMT -5
Cherie, I've gone back and re-read this thread, and I don't think I addressed your question specifically enough:
In Jesus days, was there a distinction made in those from Galilee and those from Judea?
There was little more distinction between the Galileans and the Judahites than between Californians and Oregonians with a big HOWEVER! The Samaritans and Edomites lived mostly in the South among the people of the tribe of Judah. The Benjamites were more prevalent in the North around Galilee.
Did the tribes who came back after captivity just blend in with Judah? Or did they keep a distinctive title for themselves?
The tribes of Judah and Benjamin (and some Levites) were the only tribes that had been in captivity in Babylon, and a portion of these same tribes are the only ones that returned to Jerusalem. (Ezra 1:5) The house of Judah had been absent from Jerusalem and the land of Judah until the history in Ezra and Nehemiah, therefore, there were none of their own to "blend in with".
One of the kind of confusing things about the holy lands at the time of the rebuilding through Jesus time is a little like America today. Americans come in all kinds of races, and so did the Judeans. The Samaritans, the Edomites, and others were all "Judeans", but they weren't related in any way to the "house of Judah", or indeed, even the "children of Israel." (Unless, of course, the cross-married.)
Best! Edy
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 20, 2007 19:10:10 GMT -5
Thanks Edy - that was MOST VERY EXTREMELY helpful! I knew I could count on you! It will untie my tongue!
RE: Further, the house of Israel was taken into captivity into Assyria and none ever returned to the "holy lands" as a tribe. They are the tribes that are referred to in the Bible as "dispersed" or "in dispersion". These are also the tribes that God divorced and later Jesus sent the 12 disciples to them first to give them the news of his arrival.
***Where is the biblical support for the Twelve going to them first, etc.? Thanx, Cherie
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Post by Sylvestra on Oct 20, 2007 19:55:37 GMT -5
Thanks Edy - that was MOST VERY EXTREMELY helpful! I knew I could count on you! It will untie my tongue! RE: Further, the house of Israel was taken into captivity into Assyria and none ever returned to the "holy lands" as a tribe. They are the tribes that are referred to in the Bible as "dispersed" or "in dispersion". These are also the tribes that God divorced and later Jesus sent the 12 disciples to them first to give them the news of his arrival. ***Where is the biblical support for the Twelve going to them first, etc.? Thanx, Cherie Matt. 10:5-6. Also see Matt. 15:21-28, but specifically v. 24. E
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