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Post by Rob O on Jun 5, 2006 21:36:54 GMT -5
"About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings(baptisms), the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 5:11-6:2, ESV)
This passage lists several foundational doctrines which the writer calls the "elementary doctrine of Christ". He refers to them as "milk" as for those who are unskilled in the word of righteousness. These are:
1) repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2) instruction about washings(baptisms), 3) the laying on of hands, 4) the resurrection of the dead, 5) eternal judgment
Within the paradigm of 2x2ism how do you/they understand:
1) baptisms (plural) 2) laying on of hands
If these are elementary or foundational doctrines, what do you/they consider doctrines of maturity, which the Hebrews are urged to move towards? What in 2x2ism is the "meat" of the word of righteousness?
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Post by mrtindrucvionging on Jun 5, 2006 22:44:30 GMT -5
"About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings(baptisms), the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 5:11-6:2, ESV) This passage lists several foundational doctrines which the writer calls the "elementary doctrine of Christ". He refers to them as "milk" as for those who are unskilled in the word of righteousness. These are: 1) repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2) instruction about washings(baptisms), 3) the laying on of hands, 4) the resurrection of the dead, 5) eternal judgment Within the paradigm of 2x2ism how do you/they understand: 1) baptisms (plural) 2) laying on of hands If these are elementary or foundational doctrines, what do you/they consider doctrines of maturity, which the Hebrews are urged to move towards? What in 2x2ism is the "meat" of the word of righteousness? I am afeared that your thinking is too deep for my peahen-brain.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 5, 2006 22:56:51 GMT -5
I find that ironic in light of the passage.
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Post by Zorro on Jun 5, 2006 23:01:58 GMT -5
Basically, I always felt that milk and meat were viewed as "unwilling" and "willing".
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Post by Rob O on Jun 5, 2006 23:05:33 GMT -5
Zorro,
As a professing person what thought did you give to this passage, if any?
I did not come to grapple with it until very late. It was another one of those "Aha!" moments which propelled me towards the door.
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Post by Zorro on Jun 5, 2006 23:25:42 GMT -5
Zorro,
As a professing person what thought did you give to this passage, if any?
Rob, The answer would be very little. Honestly, the whole issue of milk and meat always had somewhat of a sad, yet humorous twist for me. When I failed to stand up at my first tested meeting, one of the workers expressed his suprise...and that he thought I'd make my choice. I explained that when the mtg was tested the invitation was made to any that wanted to start serving Jesus, and I was already serving Jesus, had read nearly all of the New Testament and I was ready for some meat. The worker smiled and said "I hate to say this, but really you're ready for some milk". I was incredulous, but after pondering this for a couple of days my "revelation" was that he might be right. So....my view of the whole issue of milk and meat was skewed from the get-go. Sad but true.
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Post by one of them on Jun 6, 2006 0:38:08 GMT -5
Rob, my interpretation of "milk" and "meat" is that milk is something fed to you by others. Meat is something you get by yourself or for yourself.
Concerning the verses... the list you made are the things that are matters of being saved and having faith. Then in 6:9 it says: <<we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation >> After being saved, God has things for us to do. We need to be in touch with Him to get our "orders." (Just a very simplified statement of what I believe.)
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Post by Rob O on Jun 6, 2006 0:48:20 GMT -5
Thank you "one of them",
Do you have a view regarding baptisms (plural) and the laying on of hands? If these are beginning matters or as you say "matters of being saved and having faith" after which come the things that God has for us to do, then you would surely agree that they are important and need to be defined.
Not looking for an argument. I'm looking for what is thought of and believed with respect to this passage.
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Post by Ralf Hines on Jun 6, 2006 1:53:14 GMT -5
"Not looking for an argument. I'm looking for what is thought of and believed with respect to this passage"
The precedent set in other posts make this a suspect statement.
You know what you think F&W believe, you will not accept what others say they believe within the group. You know what you believe, and are unlilely to be swayed from it.
No, your point is to argue, hoping by quasi logic to influence other to follow you.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 6, 2006 2:13:56 GMT -5
George/otto wrote:
When I want to argue, I will gladly engage. If I say I am not looking for an argument, then I am not going to argue and your suspicion is a waste of typing effort.
I know what some F&W believe on various topics. I do not know what many F&W believe on all topics and I do not know what most individual F&W believe on individual topics. Hence my request for information.
What a load....
Interesting that you think you know more about my motives than I do. When did you become omniscient?
BTW, what exactly is "quasi logic"? Is that what you have exemplified in your very poor reasoning and unfounded assumptions in your post?
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Post by Joe from Kingaroy on Jun 6, 2006 5:46:26 GMT -5
Trying to feed the chickens, I am, I am, patting myself on the back, I am, I am, dislocating my shoulder, I am, I am.
Rob, any discussion with you and a professing person usually turns into a full blown war and a display of your obvious wealth of learning and interpretation.
Come down to our level, speak in words we can understand, show a little humility, don't be like a late fearless leader in the sunshine state. Please.
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Post by studylearning on Jun 6, 2006 8:07:20 GMT -5
Hi Rob,
For me these verses were always clear. I understood them to be part of understanding the fullness and depth of the Gospel. I am not quite sure how to explain it - so I will give a little experience of thought.
On one Sunday morning meeting I was enjoying the testimonies but it was so real that each was again using the little one liner parts of scripture. I myself was caught up in this. I found myself sitting there asking my self "is this it?" I mean some of these people have been doing this for their whole life. I said to myself, there must be a time when we pass from the simpleness of anecdotal scripture (milk) to the fullness of the scripture in life; become mature in both scripture and spirit (meat). I was there and desired the meat. There was a mixture of ages so some needed milk. It seemed that no growth was forth coming to the fullness (meat) and the learning was stunted.
When the meat was presented there was a dullness of hearing. Jesus spoke in parables for these. But, Jesus also said to the apostles that they were privileged to know much of the larger picture (meat). We as Christian grow at different rates but there comes a time when we must step out in the fullness of our faith and in the Spirit. The foundation laid, Baptism given, and now we have the full authority by the Holy Spirit to share in the Holy Spirit. In the fullness of emanating the Holy Spirit to others.
I was studying the 5 fold aspects of Ministry. In my study I found a little example which compared the passing on of the Holy Spirit as to Iron and Magnetism. Just think of that. In our fullness it is in Gods plan that our souls leap with joy from the Divine. We can and will effect all that is around us. We are not to build walls to separate us but emanate to the unification of the whole body.
This we do when we are taking now to the (meat). No long children but mature. It seems that many in my fellowship do not understand this.
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