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Post by Recent Arriver on Jun 5, 2006 19:33:48 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the deception of "Truth". I have not left the fellowship. Of those still in the fellowship (those I meet with, life-long friends, relatives) I wonder "who else knows?" I'm looking for a question that I can ask that resonates with those who know and fades out with those who don't. Thanks!
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Post by Jamee on Jun 5, 2006 20:26:42 GMT -5
I quoted William Irvine in a testimony once - and one person said later how much do you know about Mr. Irvine and I said quite a bit which started us talking.
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Post by If on Jun 5, 2006 20:29:34 GMT -5
If you're from the USA...."when did the gospel come to the states?" You could easily follow with "I've some heard the first workers came from Ireland". If they know the truth...away you go. If they don't....you'll hear about the great hardship and sacrifice they endured to come over, which would be pretty safe territory for discussion.
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Post by idea on Jun 5, 2006 20:44:24 GMT -5
Try "Did William Irvine write any of our hymns?"
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 5, 2006 21:09:07 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the deception of "Truth". What deception is that?
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Post by Troublemaker on Jun 5, 2006 21:30:33 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the deception of "Truth".What deception is that? Greg: you can get started here... home.earthlink.net/~truth/
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Post by sjg on Jun 6, 2006 7:22:57 GMT -5
Do your homework. Be sure you know what you believe and what is being taught. Try reading:
The Church Without A Name by Kathleen Lewis
The Secret Sect by Doug and Helen Parker
Reflections by Daurelle Chapman
Reflected Truth by Joan Daniel
Reinventing the Truth by Kevin N. Daniel
A Search for Truth by Lloyd Fortt
The Church With No Name by Lynn Cooper
Grounds To Believe by Shelley Bates Pocketful of Pearls by Shelley Bates A Sounding Brass by Shelley Bates (not yet published--June 2006)
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Post by another thought on Jun 6, 2006 7:46:09 GMT -5
You could ask whatever became of William Irvine's son...
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Post by Paula on Jun 6, 2006 9:32:28 GMT -5
If you do this just be ready to explain/defend yourself because I've tried this before and was suddenly faced with the very very ugly side of someone that was in denial - and this took be aback because I'd never even seen this person frown and now all the sudden she was getting very nasty with me. Good luck.
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Post by most do not know on Jun 6, 2006 10:17:27 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the deception of "Truth". I have not left the fellowship. Of those still in the fellowship (those I meet with, life-long friends, relatives) I wonder "who else knows?" I'm looking for a question that I can ask that resonates with those who know and fades out with those who don't. Thanks! I believe most will not see the big picture till they get on the Internet some may have heard about william irvine but they have been led to believe he was just another fellow
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Post by dont ask elder on Jun 6, 2006 10:21:26 GMT -5
If you ask your elder or worker present i bet they'll twist everything around what you hear on the Internet is correct
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I saw the big picture
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Post by I saw the big picture on Jun 6, 2006 10:32:31 GMT -5
[ I believe most will not see the big picture till they get on the Internet some may have heard about william irvine but they have been led to believe he was just another fellow[/quote]
I SAW THE BIG PICTURE this past weekend at convention.
THE KING IN ALL HIS BEAUTY...and us mere mortals....just chaff in the wind.
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Post by saved by grace on Jun 6, 2006 10:41:20 GMT -5
We are saved by grace and yes I have always known we are but chaff
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2006 11:27:28 GMT -5
Very few are going to feel comfortable talking about the history. My family knew, but we also knew enough to tell lies to all bit a select few which tended to be the top male workers. In consort with the top leadership, we brainstormed strategies on how to trick and mislead the rank and file. Not just about history either. Finances, organization, leadership etc.one overseer we knew well used to refer to the flock as The Dummies. Quite respectful, don't you think?
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Post by sighn on Jun 6, 2006 11:45:50 GMT -5
I was asked directly once time if I heard of William Irvine but it was the elder asking me and I froze up cause he was an intimidating man and I thought it might be a trap. I've regretted it ever since.
Point being that no matter what question you ask if you do get through you have to remember that a lot that do know and are still *in* are to afraid to be honest - they'll just duck you with a lie.
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Post by puncuation person on Jun 7, 2006 18:10:26 GMT -5
Try asking your acquaintance if he spells "truth" with a capital T or small case t after you have entered a conversation about the fellowship or related subject. :)
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Post by Say what on Jun 7, 2006 21:56:49 GMT -5
If you ask your elder or worker present i bet they'll twist everything around what you hear on the Internet is correct I'm a bit dense this evening. Can someone please clarify this? Thanks.
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Why didnt I thinkothis
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Post by Why didnt I thinkothis on Jun 7, 2006 21:59:06 GMT -5
Try asking your acquaintance if he spells "truth" with a capital T or small case t after you have entered a conversation about the fellowship or related subject. :) Great idea.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 8, 2006 7:15:26 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the deception of "Truth". I have not left the fellowship. I ask again, of "Recent Arriver", what deception?
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Post by Recent Arriver on Jun 11, 2006 15:13:53 GMT -5
"What deception?" Well, deception for me is how I generalize the way I have been mislead by "Truth" doctrine and how it affects me. A partial list follows: A) As I see it the "Truth" doctrine has severely minimized the importance of Jesus. (I was led to understand that Jesus was sent to earth to organize chosen ones to preach the gospel and to show mankind how to work their way to Heaven. This leaves out the most vital part ...Jesus is my Redeemer. He has saved me, has covered with His blood for my sinful nature.) B) The exclusive nature of the "Truth" doctrine is not scriptural. (Believing in the exclusivity caused me to be very judgmental and even cruel to others I considered outsiders) C) The authority of the workers override the scriptural authority of God. (This caused my efforts to "do right" to go in the wrong direction and with the wrong motivation.) D. I never found the doctrine of Grace to be a part of "Truth" doctrine. Learning and exploring this wonderful undeserved loving Gift of Grace from God is the catalyst to my recent awareness of this "deception". E) Discovering about William Irvine: my outraged opinion was and still remains..."THIS EXPLAINS IT ALL' So why keep up the deception? I grieve for my family and all who don't know and tho I would like to tell EVERYONE (were it possible) I feel a deep conviction that this needs to be God's timing. Sorry to have gotten carried away with my "partial List" - especially since it isn't the actual topic of this thread. Sincere thanks to all who have posted here.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 11, 2006 16:25:46 GMT -5
I thank you for your reply, "recent arriver." Your partial list is critical to the topic of this thread.
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Post by Rick on Jun 11, 2006 19:44:57 GMT -5
Quote " The authority of the workers override the scriptural authority of God." I have made it clear to a worker, that the Bible is the ultimate authority and he fully agreed. but that was in a private conversation
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 11, 2006 19:53:37 GMT -5
Quote " The authority of the workers override the scriptural authority of God." I have made it clear to a worker, that the Bible is the ultimate authority and he fully agreed. but that was in a private conversation Likely all workers would agree with this, that God's word is the ultimate authority. The rub comes in with "who rightly understands the word of God, what he had written, what the writer meant".
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Post by Listening on Jun 11, 2006 21:28:58 GMT -5
Listen to prayers and testimonys - you can pick things out sometimes
People who know a lot of times won't pray for the workers and aren't to fond of them. They also pray less about "Truth", "Perfect Way", "True Way", "Established walk", etc unless they say "Christ's" or "Jesus' " with it. Testimonys include hints of these topics: salvation, seeking christ, not mans way, non-judgementalism, sharing the True Christ with others, living grateful lives, etc.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 11, 2006 21:51:20 GMT -5
To Recent Arriver: How did you find out about grace? About Wm Irvine? I feel for you being in the throes of agony over the deceit and betrayal. Many of us have been there. We feel your pain.
It does get better. It's a role exit. It's like a divorce. Painful and takes awhile. They say you are fully recovered when you've gone thru 1 year for every 5 that you were married. It helps to have friends who understand or a support group.
Cheerio, Cherie
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Post by a believer on Jun 11, 2006 22:24:29 GMT -5
[ I believe most will not see the big picture till they get on the Internet some may have heard about william irvine but they have been led to believe he was just another fellow I SAW THE BIG PICTURE this past weekend at convention. THE KING IN ALL HIS BEAUTY...and us mere mortals....just chaff in the wind. [/quote] Mere mortals, just chaff in the wind??? Did you not hear that every one of us is important to God. that we are so important to him that Jesus came to earth and died on the Cross for you and me. Or are we just mere mortals, just chaff in the wind? No, Jesus loved us so much that He died for us.... He has a plan and purpose for each one of us. You might be a mere mortal, but I was bought with a price. The price was the sacrifice of Jesus.... I am important to him. I know the very hairs on my head are numbered. I am no chaff, I am here for a purpose, designed by God. A convention where workers preach that we are not important to God, just chaff versus a God who has a plan and purpose for each one of us. A God that came to earth to die for me. That is how important I am to him. Reminds me that I am not missing anything by not going to convention.
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Post by recentarriver on Jun 13, 2006 20:10:26 GMT -5
CherieKropp asked how I learned about grace. A few years ago someone visiting us brought this topic into my center vision. Previously it was just another mystical word in the Bible and I don't remember ever hearing anything of depth in meetings or convention about grace. I couldn't get this grace thing out of my thoughts and I pleaded with God for an understanding for myself of what grace meant for me. Studying Rom 3:24, Ch 5, Eph 2:7-9, Titus 2:11 etc I discovered that grace is a gift. It is entirely the workings of God, nothing I can do or work for or earn for myself. No one deserves it but it is offered to all men and is not inclusive. In ages to come we will be shown even more of the exceeding riches of His grace. This is revealed through Christ Jesus who has justified me and paid for my redemption. I know that this is the revelation of God to me because of the arrival of a peace I have never known before. Grace-awareness is like the key that has opened my understanding of the truth about God's truth. It is revealing the misleadings of the doctrine I learned and lived and told others for 40plus years. Learning about William Irvine: One day (3 months ago) I was surfing the net. Decided to check out George Walker's passage to America. Guess who else had their name there! I checked them out too and here I am. It seems I did my discovery of the deception in reverse - learning about a human founder after other doctrinal issues began to be revealed. I have learned much in 3 months...it has been a crash course and not at all pleasant. I am thankful for all the thoughts and petitions to our God on behalf of the ones going through this. We are all on this journey together.
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Post by selah on Jun 13, 2006 21:36:09 GMT -5
Hello recentarriver. I'm glad you're here. You will find more and more beauty in your relationship with God, now that He has revealed the most important part...His Grace in Jesus Christ, His Son.
Your wording, "Grace-awareness" made me think of a book called, "The Grace Awakening" by Chuck Swindoll. This book is well worth reading. Another that is amazingly beautiful and poignant is "In the Grip of Grace" by Max Lucado. And one last title, I'll mention is "What's So Amazing about Grace" by Philip Yancey. These three books are excellent for bringing Grace-awareness. Of course, they all point to the scriptures about Jesus.
Has anyone read "Blue Like Jazz" by Donald Miller? My son highly recommends it, so I'm going to read it next. He says it's a wonderful non-religious revelation of the beauty and majesty of God.
Blessings, Linda
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