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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2006 15:58:38 GMT -5
That we couldn't tell people the truth because it might hurt their faith. Ie they were very worried that people would not want to be associated with a group that 1 was less than one hundred years old *at that time* and 2 had typically presented a dishonest history. I remember when the books started coming out, senior workers like Eldon and Tharold had a meeting at our home to discuss what to do. They were ANGRY. They said if they had of just been able to get a few more years past, there wouldn't have been any around who remembered the history to confirm it and they would have gotten away with the coverup. An Aussie worker who I was extremely fond of, said that if he could go back in time, he would do whatever was necessary to stop Parker from writing his book. They were very unprepared and very scared when the books started coming.
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Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 7, 2006 16:06:16 GMT -5
That we couldn't tell people the truth because it might hurt their faith. Ie they were very worried that people would not want to be associated with a group that 1 was less than one hundred years old *at that time* and 2 had typically presented a dishonest history. I remember when the books started coming out, senior workers like Eldon and Tharold had a meeting at our home to discuss what to do. They were ANGRY. They said if they had of just been able to get a few more years past, there wouldn't have been any around who remembered the history to confirm it and they would have gotten away with the coverup. An Aussie worker who I was extremely fond of, said that if he could go back in time, he would do whatever was necessary to stop Parker from writing his book. They were very unprepared and very scared when the books started coming. being angry at the truth says a lot about the person who is angry.
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Post by as i c it thanks on Jun 7, 2006 16:18:10 GMT -5
Thanks daisy. It's very disheartening to face the real truth...The history itself...doesn't bother me. But the reasons for it: and continuation of it....dispite the effects on the believers...does.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2006 17:01:25 GMT -5
I agree. The history has never been a big deal to me, because I knew the story. But lying was unbearable. And if I had of been lied too, I probably would have had a very hard time forgiving it.
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Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 7, 2006 17:54:31 GMT -5
I agree. The history has never been a big deal to me, because I knew the story. But lying was unbearable. And if I had of been lied too, I probably would have had a very hard time forgiving it. Did you feel you had to lie?
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Post by as i c it on Jun 7, 2006 18:18:47 GMT -5
daisy,
Right now it's sadness to the point of silence...mostly. (But I've been here before, and know it's all part of coming to terms with the reality of what it all means).
Putting you in the position they did...causing you to lie...(Gee...wonder if that had any effect on you and your desire not to profess? Or on your parents/family...just enjoying the role???)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2006 21:24:45 GMT -5
The lying is how we got our position and high status place. They know they can trust my parents to jeep secrets and secrets are power. If we had of been loose lipped I am sure my family would have been out out. My father finds ways to justify his actions, in my opinion he does truly believe in both God and the system. To my mother, her place is everything she loves the feeling of importance and she does not really believe in much of anything so no guilty conscience. I have a sister who is still in, she would do anything to please my parents. The rest of the family could not deal with the stress of our situation. And the history is only the tip top of the iceburg.
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Post by wondering on Jun 7, 2006 21:30:58 GMT -5
Do you profess, Daisy? If not, how long have you been out?
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Post by more info please on Jun 8, 2006 2:51:53 GMT -5
daisy,
In your opinion: do the overseers have a fear of God, and a love for God: and a love for the believers? Or...what?
You also say the history is only the tip top of the iceberg. (What other illusions need to be removed?)
We may as well face everything now (than find out later)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 6:06:05 GMT -5
I am just going to start with the first things that bothered me there will be more to come as I am not feeling that well right now. My brother and I started questioning when I was about six years old. Two things happened at that time, one a neighbor died and two my mother got pregnant and wanted to get an abortion. The death of our neighbor made us question what happens to souls when they die? Over the course of three years I asked nearly forty workers their views and I discovered that on a very basic question of faith, no one believed the exact same thing. The abortion issue was similar, my mother thinks there is nothing wrong with it, while my father thinks it is murder. This is an issue of morality, and I questioned dozens of workers to get their thoughts. Interstingly enough, their opinions and reasoning were all over the place. So basically, at that point I realized that this group is not really a religion in that they make no attempt to explain and teach basic faith and morals. These things are the foundation of religion. Most of the teaching is about appearances, which is more typical of a sorority than a religion. This is what my mother has known all along, but it doesn't bother her to belong to this group as a social organization. For myself, I wanted to belong to a group that teaches faith and morality clearly and with few ambiguities, so I left.
The rest of the problems have to do with more secrets and lies. Regarding, thr organization, doctrine, finances etc. There have also been horrible social things I observed in trying to force people to conform etc. I can go into more detail on that later.
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Post by for Daisy on Jun 8, 2006 10:03:52 GMT -5
Daisy- Do you go to another church? Which one?
Why do you still visit the workers when you go to other countries?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 10:25:27 GMT -5
[quote author=teenager board=general thread=1149530715 [/quote] Teenager:
Dont be so taken up with people telling the truth. The devil tells people things that are true also.[/quote]
This is amazing.
Karl
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 12:32:59 GMT -5
I used to attend a Baptist church, however now I have a boyfriend from a Russian Orthodox background. We decided that rather than attend his church or my church that we would pick a church together. So we spent nearly two years attending different services together until we found something that fit is both. It is a non denominational group but with very orthodox beliefs.
The first time I went to South America, the workers and I ran into each other. My business was actually in the very small hotel where they were holding convention! I kept up with several there it is nice to see a friendly face in places so different and far from home.
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Post by as i c it thanks on Jun 8, 2006 12:34:27 GMT -5
"Don't be so taken up with people telling the truth".
Thank you for bringing that statement to my attention, lacpastor. And for providing the explanation I needed to understand how our church ended up with so much twisted logic...that it's finally hung itself.
The church (as an institution) is to: Stand --for truth. And once those with the power: the authority: and the respect--compromised our position--as a church--by using that power to "gently" twist the logic of those beneath them...to accept less...our power (as a church): and our power: (to stand for truth) was gradually eroded away...until "wrong" became "right"--and "right' became "wrong".
And truth-tellers...became "liars". And "troublemakers". And the system more important than...anything else.
Perserve the system. And the image of the system. At all costs. Is Rule #1. Those in power, then used that power, to twist the minor workers into learning that rule. And those workers, in turn, used their power, to twist the truth of the believers into learning it as well. And those believers then taught their sons and daughters to follow the same rule.... Until...today, we have "unity".
Not the unity that comes from knowing the Bible. From having "a" doctrine. Just the unity that comes from protecting our "institution".
Since I came to this site: found out all I did: I've been trying to understand how the workers I know (and love and respect) could be party to...something so wrong.
Lying to people to build a church. Destroying people--to maintain that church. And refusing to be accountable--forthright and honest--when the lies and deceptions became known.
It's destroyed me to know that the institution was more important than the truth. And more important than the sheep. And it made a mockery out of everything "the church" was to stand for.
But the statement you just highlighted, lacpastor, says it all--and shows me how--it all happened. So gradually...so gently...in so many, small, small, "minor" ways...until...What should have been "normal" (in a church) became..."abnormal": and what should have been "abnormal" in a church...become "normal".
(Those poor, young, defenceless workers. "What's wrong with me?" must have been a major question for them....until they learned to accept the twisted "logics" of "truth". If only they'd known--and we'd known--to ask the right question...which is "What's wrong with THEM?" And with this institution: that it'd ask me to lie/deceive/or in any way...disobey the plainest teachings of the Bible.)
That posting, lacpastor, has given me hope again. Thank you for posting it--exactly as you did.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 8, 2006 12:47:54 GMT -5
Any church which bases its origin on a LIE — or conceals its history in a cover-up — has no business calling itself the "TRUTH." Like I ask on TLT, if the history of the 2x2 church is unimportant, then why lie about it? HARRY MOORADIAN: It is a marvelous thing to me that in this generation almost 2000 years after Jesus died we are still in the same fellowship. Well, some people say there are other fellowships that can be alright. No, there can't be, because there is only one body that Jesus had. [Santee CA Conv 1980] REF #234 |
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studylearning unplugged
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Post by studylearning unplugged on Jun 8, 2006 12:54:47 GMT -5
Any church which bases its origin on a LIE — or conceals its history in a cover-up — has no business calling itself the "TRUTH." Like I ask on TLT, if the history of the 2x2 church is unimportant, then why lie about it? Exactly ilylo. Here in MI they do not allow friends list to be passed out any longer. I was told I had to go get it from a worker. It seems that they are afraid that someone might send letters out to the friends and tell them about things they don't want to here of. I guess they do not trust in God to keep them in the "Truth." I can understand if some do not want their privite info printed but then how on earth will we ever find out where the next union meeting pot-luck is? ;D
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Post by happy on Jun 8, 2006 15:34:39 GMT -5
Daisy, I must say your life intrigues me! I'd love to have coffee and chat. Happy
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Post by selah on Jun 8, 2006 15:50:46 GMT -5
still after 26 years. I love the f&w, I forgive them....I ask their forgiveness too. Please Lord, please fix this. Our hearts are breaking. In Jesus Name. Linda "Don't be so taken up with people telling the truth". Thank you for bringing that statement to my attention, lacpastor. And for providing the explanation I needed to understand how our church ended up with so much twisted logic...that it's finally hung itself. The church (as an institution) is to: Stand --for truth. And once those with the power: the authority: and the respect--compromised our position--as a church--by using that power to "gently" twist the logic of those beneath them...to accept less...our power (as a church): and our power: (to stand for truth) was gradually eroded away...until "wrong" became "right"--and "right' became "wrong". And truth-tellers...became "liars". And "troublemakers". And the system more important than...anything else. Perserve the system. And the image of the system. At all costs. Is Rule #1. Those in power, then used that power, to twist the minor workers into learning that rule. And those workers, in turn, used their power, to twist the truth of the believers into learning it as well. And those believers then taught their sons and daughters to follow the same rule.... Until...today, we have "unity". Not the unity that comes from knowing the Bible. From having "a" doctrine. Just the unity that comes from protecting our "institution". Since I came to this site: found out all I did: I've been trying to understand how the workers I know (and love and respect) could be party to...something so wrong. Lying to people to build a church. Destroying people--to maintain that church. And refusing to be accountable--forthright and honest--when the lies and deceptions became known. It's destroyed me to know that the institution was more important than the truth. And more important than the sheep. And it made a mockery out of everything "the church" was to stand for. But the statement you just highlighted, lacpastor, says it all--and shows me how--it all happened. So gradually...so gently...in so many, small, small, "minor" ways...until...What should have been "normal" (in a church) became..."abnormal": and what should have been "abnormal" in a church...become "normal". (Those poor, young, defenceless workers. "What's wrong with me?" must have been a major question for them....until they learned to accept the twisted "logics" of "truth". If only they'd known--and we'd known--to ask the right question...which is "What's wrong with THEM?" And with this institution: that it'd ask me to lie/deceive/or in any way...disobey the plainest teachings of the Bible.) That posting, lacpastor, has given me hope again. Thank you for posting it--exactly as you did.
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Post by as i c it thanks on Jun 8, 2006 17:35:50 GMT -5
Linda,
I forgive them too.
It took reading Lacpastor's statement ("This is amazing") to cause me to wonder "What was?" I'd read Teenager's statement..had enjoyed it (as usual) but nothing had really grabbed my attention...until (because of lacpastor's statement) I re-read it...and--suddenly--saw what he saw through his eyes!!!
Lullaby and goodnight...we've been lulled to sleep--with a "There, there, don't let the truth disturb you...just...look over here.." attitude. And it took lacpastor's statement to wake me up, as to just how brain-washed I've become (when it comes to the church).
Had I read that statement "in the world"--my alarm (of "Say What?!!!) would have gone off immediately! But...here: to do with the church...not even a click...just fell right into place as "normal".
And Teenager's statement--PROVES how NORMAL it is! in our CHURCH!!!
Isn't that sad? It makes you wonder how many of us (believer's and ex-es) are still asleep. I mean, how many read Teenager's statement...and just accepted it...? Until lacpaster really saw what it said?
Weep not for me, Linda. The "valley of death" experience has passed (again): and I have hope (again) that if enough lightbulbs go off...then..the church can be what it was called to be.
Thanks for caring, and for continuing to post.
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Post by Follower on Jun 8, 2006 17:59:42 GMT -5
reposting - take a look at this streaming video! There is a comment about the scales falling off his eyes.......... selah Royal Member member is offline If God is for us who can be against us? Rom. 8:31b Joined: Oct 2003 Gender: Female Posts: 1,328 Location: Brandon, Manitoba, Canada Called to be Free « Thread Started on Jun 6, 2006, 10:48am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This video is about the transformation of Herbert W. Armstrong's cult. It is an incredible testimony of God's miraculous dealing with a group steeped in false teaching, and blinded to the grace of God. Amazingly, the church leaders take the risk of standing for truth, at the expense of the overall unity of the church known as The Worldwide Church of God. It's a 74 minute factual documentary that you can view for free online. It's well worth watching. Please invest a little time to see these people who have such powerful testimonies about what God can do. You'll be glad you did. lhvm.org/vid_ctbf_med.htmJust go to the bottom right-hand corner of the black screen and click on "google"; then click on the little "go to google" window that pops up. A larger window will open, and the video should begin to play. Blessings, Linda
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Post by selah on Jun 8, 2006 18:44:54 GMT -5
Thanks for re-posting that link, interested.
Yes, as i c it, I hear you, and agree. My weeping is for all who continue to live their lives believing that shunning and mocking the liberty of Christ is the ONLY right way to live. My weeping is for the devastating sorrow upon all who love the Lord, yet seem unable to come together in unity. My weeping is for the grieving of the Holy Spirit, as the sacrifice of Christ appears as naught.
Father, please let the scales fall away. Please remove the scales from our eyes, so that only YOU remain before us. Please bring YOUR revelation, in Jesus Name, Amen.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by as i c it thanks on Jun 8, 2006 20:52:36 GMT -5
interested, and Linda,
Thank you for posting that wonderful video! Everything you said about it is true, and I hope others will watch it too.
Well worth the 74 minutes!
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Post by las logged out on Jun 9, 2006 9:37:03 GMT -5
I listened to it again I have the VHS tape I listen to a lot of tapes when I am laying in bed I do not necessarily need a picture.sometimes I turn the brightness off so everything is dark then you can lay in bed and just listen you get more out of it...Yes it is a very good tape
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