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Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 6, 2006 16:53:46 GMT -5
Once again, nate sidesteps like a well-trained puppy, because he cannot be honest with us with asked to be held accountable, like some others on here. And that's all I'm asking of him, to stand by his claim by backing it up or to say that he was wrong. Why should honesty be so hard?
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Post by nathan9 unplugged on Jun 6, 2006 17:07:33 GMT -5
Read MY post on the other thread and read Nathan9's response above. It would appear that I have in essence answered 100% "for" Nathan9 ! Surely no further comment is necessary, except perhaps a few words of heartfelt gratitude from Bryan to Nathan9. They wouldn't go amiss !
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 6, 2006 17:13:56 GMT -5
Once again, nate sidesteps like a well-trained puppy, because he cannot be honest with us with asked to be held accountable, like some others on here. nate, prue, innocentQ... 2x2s 1st, Christians 2nd
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 6, 2006 17:16:03 GMT -5
Your sarcastic oneliners are tiresome. Can you not post something positive for once?? A few posts above you talked about trying to be patient. May I suggest that we do tried such a thing when it came to Nathan and just simply ran out. FWIW -I was referring to being pateint with those who do not understand the full diety of Christ- not with people who seem to post nothing but sarcastic onliners. PEACE, HFA
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 6, 2006 17:41:30 GMT -5
Nathan, I am trying to be patient. I understand that this is a revelation. It just hurts me to think that anyone who understands this -is thought by many to "believe a false doctrine". And often this understanding is scoffed at by some who as much as say that anyone who believes that Jesus is God are totally lacking. You asked: "How can the friends and workers deny the full divinity of Jesus Christ when they accept Him as Lord and Savior? ". Would this not be when they say, "Jesus is not God", or "Jesus risked his own salvation by coming to earth', or "Jesus received all his power from God", or "Jesus could have failed" or "Jesus had to save himself before he could save others". All of these well entrenched beliefs deny the FULL divinity of Christ. Most F&W say they believe that Jesus was 100% divine. Yet from my own experience their definition of divine is different from what I now understand it to mean. I think most friends see divine nature as being this perfect nature that makes us all love one another and get along and be perfect- but few see it as the full power and ability that God the father had within himself- a power that no other being can ever come close to having. This is the same power and ability that Christ had in that he is the LORD of the Universe and who is equal to God. Love, HFA 1) As a professing 2x2.. HFA.. How many years have you been professing? and when did you really understand Jesus is God/LORD? 2) Were you saved (2x2) person before you really understood Jesus is God/LORD? ;D 3) Some are willing to learn and be taught by God so they understand spiritual things better and faster than others. Those who refuse to learn what God has revaled then God will stop showing it to them. Nathan, 1. 37 YEARS- 9 years as an Elder. - and I am embarrased to say that I have only understood that Jesus is LORD and God for about 3 years- and am still learning more about what these means. 2. I fear that the answer might be no during all the years I believed that "Jesus is not God". I trusted in my ability to try hard to be like him. Seldom a week went by that I did not doubt my own standing before God because I sin and simply cannot measure up to Christ's perfect life. I still believe we must follow Christ's teachings, and I do not believe in OSAS (IMHO one of the most deadly doctrines in the world today). I believe we can be assured of our salvation as long as we continue to follow and believe on Jesus. This is not OSAS. But I now see that Jesus lived a perfect life because of his divine nature- not to prove that we can be perfect also if we just try hard enough. I do not believe that understanding Jesus to be LORD is necessarily essential. But I do believe that denying that Jesus is both LORD and GOD is a very serious thing. One is not the same as the other. One is simple ignorance- but the other is deliberate denial of Christ as God come in the flesh. Love, HFA
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Post by ozelaine on Jun 6, 2006 18:39:14 GMT -5
How can a church or denomination possibly be preaching the true Gospel when they consistently and persistently tell you of a false jesus?
Does anyone have an answer to this?
"They may be in error about certain things about Him but surely its a bit extreme to say that because they believe a few things wrong about Jesus it means they have another jesus, a false jesus and that they are all in a lost state and bound for hell"
The apostle Paul warned that if any man came preaching another gospel which He had not preached, meaning that if their definition of what the Gospel is did not match perfectly with Paul’s definition, then those people teaching it were not just in error about the Gospel but at that point in time were preaching another gospel altogether and in a damned state and so were all who believe them.
The Bible states: "But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid TO THEM THAT ARE LOST" (2 Cor. 4:3). If one is in error when it comes to the Gospel and the Jesus it speaks of, God ‘s Word says that that person is not merely wrong and in need of more knowledge, but is in fact LOST and in need of LIGHT for there is no Light in them! (Isa. 8:20).
This is a life and death issue, as Paul makes 100% clear. It's not an option. We can believe him or believe Nathan who says it doesn't matter.
Nathan, this is why I wasn't saved while listening to the workers (in the UK) Gospel. It wasn't because I didn't hear correctly, it's because what I was hearing wasn't correct.
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Post by studylearning on Jun 6, 2006 21:51:08 GMT -5
3) Some are willing to learn and be taught by God so they understand spiritual things better and faster than others. Those who refuse to learn what God has revealed then God will stop showing it to them. Yet you miss the most important part of my post: Those who are leading and teaching say this? (Surely you can't believe that one has salvation in other churches?) and (We don't teach Jesus as "God Incarnate") Now I want you to think about this hard. I am not in a right spirit because I will not deny the Power of God working in other people? I have no words that can explain my thoughts about so called preachers of the Gospel asking one to deny the work of GodAs OzElaine stated. This is a very serious error in the ministry. It is a crack in the foundation. Perhaps you are very correct in your statement: " Those who refuse to learn what God has revealed then God will stop showing it to them" That is the very reason so many are leaving the "WAY". They see the error, try to discuss it, and then are told to be quiet or branded as "wrong spirit". The fellowship is deceived themselves by a worship turned in on on themselves and not on the Deity of God The Son
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Post by ilylo on Jun 6, 2006 22:43:50 GMT -5
Read MY post on the other thread and read Nathan9's response above. It would appear that I have in essence answered 100% "for" Nathan9 ! Surely no further comment is necessary, except perhaps a few words of heartfelt gratitude from Bryan to Nathan9. They wouldn't go amiss ! To use the real nate's favorite line: "Who are you?"Ah, that's right... you're not nathan. So your comments are pointless.
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Post by guesty on Jun 6, 2006 23:49:56 GMT -5
Some things that bother me..."Selah" listed her understanding of "2x2 terms used and gave her own opin ion as to what they were. Opinions just stated as fact are misleading and obviously bent towards the speaker's ideas of things. One was how "spiritual growth" is measured. How in the world would she know something like that? Who is doing the measuring? Saying you can measure a person's spirit is like saying you can see into their heart.
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Post by OzE on Jun 7, 2006 2:24:14 GMT -5
~~~ Nathan9: I agree with you also that understanding Jesus to be LORD is not neccessarily essential.
I'm sure you don't understand the gravity of your statement Nathan. It is quite absurd to think that you can know Jesus without knowing who he is!
Let the readers decide.
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Post by selah on Jun 7, 2006 8:43:16 GMT -5
Some things that bother me..."Selah" listed her understanding of "2x2 terms used and gave her own opin ion as to what they were. Opinions just stated as fact are misleading and obviously bent towards the speaker's ideas of things. One was how "spiritual growth" is measured. How in the world would she know something like that? Who is doing the measuring? Saying you can measure a person's spirit is like saying you can see into their heart. Hi guesty, The understanding behind the terms I presented, were not just my opinions about what they meant. When I was "professing", these ideas were well understood by everyone I was in fellowship with....workers and friends. I know this, because these were commonly discussed. About the measuring? I agree, How in the world can ANYONE measure a person's spirit? I agree, you can't, but, in the fellowship, I tried to ( ashamed of that now) and so did the other friends and workers I knew, by looking at outward things. I often heard comments about how willing or unwilling someone was based on whether or not they wore jewellery or make-up, or if they cut their hair or wore pants. One lady came to meeting for a long time. She continued to wear lipstick. Her unwillingness often came up in conversation. I asked the workers how they handle things like that. They said they would wait awhile, hoping the Holy Spirit would convict her, and if after a period of time, she had not left the lipstick behind, they would pay her a visit. I wondered how long do the workers allow for the Holy Spirit to work, before they take over His job? Maybe if they just left it to Him, she'd still be in the fellowship...(although she might still be wearing lipstick too.) One lady was rebuked for cutting her bangs. I was asked by a worker, how I would feel on the judgement day, when I would have to face the fact that I allowed my cigarettes to keep me out of heaven. (non-smoker now...so that's a good thing) I could give many more instances of attempts to measure a person's spirit by f&w. Guesty, I believe there are people in the f&w group who are less judgmental now. I am relating my experience. It is true and it is not "just my opinion, obviously bent toward my ideas of things". I agree with you. Only God knows our hearts. I remember well the day I realized how judgmental I had been. My heart broke as I repented of such behavior. I'm so glad our God forgives and restores. Blessings, Linda
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 7, 2006 12:53:42 GMT -5
~~~ Nathan9: I agree with you also that understanding Jesus to be LORD is not neccessarily essential.I'm sure you don't understand the gravity of your statement Nathan. It is quite absurd to think that you can know Jesus without knowing who he is! Let the readers decide. I want to clarify once more what I meant by this statement. I assume Nathan means the same thing- but he can clarify if he doesn't agree with me. 1. One must believe that Jesus is the son of God. 2. One must believe that there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved. 3. One must believe that Jesus came in the flesh- meaning he took on ALL things human, so as to understand us AND so as to defeat satan. 4. One must believe that Jesus truly died and was raised up to eternal life. This is our hope. 5. One must believe that Jesus is alive and sitting at his father's right hand interceding for us. 6. One must believe that Jesus will one day return to judge the living and the dead. 7. One must believe that Jesus will one day sit on the throne as Lord and King for ever more. 8. One must believe that Jesus was the Messiah. These are essentials of knowing and understanding who Jesus is and what he meant to the world. On the other hand one cannot believe the following and be saved: 1. That Jesus was an angel (gnostic teaching) 2. That Jesus was only a man who had the power of God on his side. 3. That Jesus suffered only in "semblence"- (gnostic teaching). 4. That Jesus was not really tempted. 5. That we can please God and earn salvation by doing all we can in our own power to "be like Jesus". 6. That Jesus is not God. Love, HFA
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Post by ozelaine on Jun 8, 2006 1:57:06 GMT -5
1. One must believe that Jesus is the son of God.
Dear HFA,
I believe that one must believe that Jesus is God the Son.
I think that one needs to believe the truth about who Jesus really is to be saved, otherwise who they speak of and describe would not be the Jesus of the Bible but another. One who is not God the Son. As you have discovered this Jesus that you now acknowledge is very different from the one you have been told about, and continue to be told about in missions and meetings.
Paul the apostle solemnly warned that there would be false christs preached. In fact, he described the false messiah of the false prophets and teachers as ‘ANOTHER JESUS.’ "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER jesus, WHOM WE HAVE NOT PREACHED...ye might well bear with me" (2 Cor. 11:3,4).
Paul spoke of men who would come preaching ‘a’ jesus but not THE Jesus. They would have the name right but they attributed things to His Character and what He had done that were wrong and not a true description of the True Jesus. They lied about Him and about what He had done, thus denying the True Jesus and what He actually did do. Deny who Christ is and what Christ did and you deny Christ Himself. The Muslims say that they have the same god as the Jews and the Christians. This is no doubt their intention and sincere belief but what they say about God shows clearly that they worship neither the God of the Jews or the Christians. They say that Jesus was a good man, even a prophet, but the fact they deny His Deity shows that they neither know they the Father or the Son: "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father..." (1 Jn. 2:23).
Sincerely.
Elaine.
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Post by amazed on Jun 8, 2006 12:34:34 GMT -5
Nathan9, How, can a worker who does not preach that Jesus is God, even be a worker? If they believe they are sent out as the Apostles were (who were sent by Christ), how can they not know who he is? This just doesn't seem possible. By what authority do they go out if not by God the Son?
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studylearning unplugged
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Post by studylearning unplugged on Jun 8, 2006 12:48:58 GMT -5
Nathan9, How, can a worker who does not preach that Jesus is God, even be a worker? If they are sent out by Christ, how can they not know who he is? This just doesn't seem possible. By what authority do they go out if not by God the Son? No NO NOOOOO --- The real issue is asking and expecting silence from those in the fellowship who speak of both those having salvation outside the group and Jesus God the Son. (This in my thinking is false teaching just for the sake of maintaining status quo within the group) Do they not know, that they, by doing this are Denying God?
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Post by amazed on Jun 8, 2006 13:09:39 GMT -5
Nathan9, How, can a worker who does not preach that Jesus is God, even be a worker? If they are sent out by Christ, how can they not know who he is? This just doesn't seem possible. By what authority do they go out if not by God the Son? No NO NOOOOO --- The real issue is asking and expecting silence from those in the fellowship who speak of both those having salvation outside the group and Jesus God the Son. (This in my thinking is false teaching just for the sake of maintaining status quo within the group) Do they not know, that they, by doing this are Denying God? I completely agree, I guess I'm just not very good at getting my point across, although I did modify my post to try to make it a little clearer.
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studylearning unplugged
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Post by studylearning unplugged on Jun 8, 2006 20:00:26 GMT -5
No NO NOOOOO --- The real issue is asking and expecting silence from those in the fellowship who speak of both those having salvation outside the group and Jesus God the Son. (This in my thinking is false teaching just for the sake of maintaining status quo within the group) Do they not know, that they, by doing this are Denying God? I completely agree, I guess I'm just not very good at getting my point across, although I did modify my post to try to make it a little clearer. Never mind my post. You are on spot with yours. I just wanted to point out that demands of denial for the Works of God makes it so much worse--It forces followers to Blas--. I won't use the word.
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