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Post by studylearning on Jun 5, 2006 9:00:08 GMT -5
This is a recent recap of events which happened to me last month.
First of all I would Again like to say with most sincerity (I am sorry) to all those who have departed from the F&w. I was guilty of many a rude and unkind stance at the telling of your experiences. I was B&R left and then returned to meetings upon which I professed. I want to stress my (Profession) was not of the workers nor by the workers. In fact I was never tested in a meeting. I was touched by the hand of God outside of the church called "The Way." My profession (Confession) of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior was made under the hand of God. I did make a formal proclamation in a Sunday Morning meeting as the Holy Spirit committed to me.
During my walk outside of the fellowship I had many fellowships with other Christians. God walked with me my whole life and I never denied his hand in my life. There was a turning point in my life when the storms were very great and my cries were raising up in prayer. When God answered and the sky became clear I knew wonderful changes were in store. I desired to have a greater fellowship for the Joy and Glory of God. Naturally I returned to my roots. I did find a very loving fellowship and peace.
However, one thing seemed to always stick out and gave me much stress. It was the constant knocking of other Christians. They were false was the implication. I knew from first hand experiences that this was not the case. I also saw the pains and sufferings of other friends as expressed by many on this forum. I ignored them for the sake of my fellowship. My questions grew as I saw more and more of self gratification in the group coupled with mis-interpretations of scripture to justify them. Some that I know who left for these same reasons told me "Well You just speak out or ask the workers about this stuff", You will see how fast they turn on you. I really did not believe it to be true.
Soon (by the Conviction of the Holy Spirit) I started to share what I knew to be wrong as I could no longer be silent.
I started to speak up about things like (people being saved in other fellowships), you know not F&W. I also spoke about just who Emmanuel was. You know this thing about incarnation for which every Bible dictionary and the Gospels affirm. I shared more but will stop there.
I was told last month (By the Workers) in a very direct way that my testimonies were not welcome and not edifying. I was told that others were complaining, but, as of yet not one has come foward to addres with me face to face.[/u] During discussion of why my testimonies were considered not edifying and further that I should not talk about these things, it was revealed to me that the F&W way simply does not believe in salvation through any other fellowship.
"surely you can't believe that they are saved in other churches" was the words used.
Nor DO they believe in the incarnation.
In the course of the discussion I was asked what the church meant to me. I explained and when mentioning the Deity of Christ I said "God Incarnate" I was told " We do not teach that." I asked, Who is Emmanuel then? There was no answer. I told that that I could not deny the works of God that I saw in places outside our fellowship. I was told that I was unwilling. I was told that I was not in a "Right Spirit."
Now I want you to think about this hard. I am not in a right spirit because I will not deny the Power of God working in other people? I have no words that can explain my thoughts about so called preachers of the Gospel asking one to deny the work of God. What is equally bad is they do not want to even hear about it. They do not care.
Notice I say fellowship and not church. I do this because I understand the Church to be believers in Christ for which Jesus is the foundation and the Head. The church has no limits. It is Gods and only Gods. God has control of it and no other. God decides who, when and where a person will be touched by his hand. This is that Grace thing taught in the Bible. You know The Grace of God to man through Jesus.
To continue- I now know the truth. After having fellowship with so many for many many years, these brother and sisters in a matter of a weeks have decided I am being led by the devil. Wow -And I thought these people who I called my brothers and sisters had the Love of Christ with-in. It is just assumed that there is some fault with me. It appears that they are incapable of even thinking that my stand could be of GOD.
Yes- I am guilty of testifying that God works in other fellowships outside the F&W and that Jesus is God incarnate.
These are my sins. May Jesus be my witness.
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Post by bumpty on Jun 5, 2006 11:26:28 GMT -5
bump bump
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Post by IsThisForReal on Jun 5, 2006 11:43:22 GMT -5
Is this for real. I am wondering how many others on the TMB have had the same experiences. I find this hard to belief that workers would actually say that one is to deny Gods work.
I hear them say, we just put it in Gods hands.
Would anyone else have input on this issue.
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Post by Zorro on Jun 5, 2006 11:53:39 GMT -5
Is this for real. I am wondering how many others on the TMB have had the same experiences. I find this hard to belief that workers would actually say that one is to deny Gods work.
I hear them say, we just put it in Gods hands.
Would anyone else have input on this issue.
I have had experiences very similar to StudyLearnings. But to clarify...of course the workers would never expressly instruct people to deny God's work. What StudyLearning is saying is that to deny God's work in lives of Christians outside the F&Ws fellowship is to implicitly deny God's work. And I totally agree.
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Post by anyone else on Jun 5, 2006 12:03:34 GMT -5
Would anyone else have input on this issue. Yes this can and does happen but many many workers would never support these actions. As always, its a regional thing. It can happen in some areas but not all. Perhaps to be fair, studylearning would be willing to provide a rough location of these events?
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Post by selah on Jun 5, 2006 12:28:22 GMT -5
These are a few terms from the fellowship, and the way they were understood when I was a part of it. There are many good things about the fellowship too. However, I write about these, because of the potential harm they can bring to one who is not informed ahead of time.
The Lost/Worldly - those who have never heard the gospel of and through the workers. If they ask questions, invite them to meetings for the answers from the workers.
Seeker - One who is exploring their personal spirituality. Encouraged to attend meetings and have visits with the workers to ask questions. It is fine to disagree with the answers, because she is still "lost". Gospel meeting attendance and some social function ("sings", potlucks etc.) attendance is welcomed.
Newly Professing - One who has chosen to follow Jesus, which includes full acceptance of the system - meeting in the home, workers without a home. Some questions are still accepted, because she is new and still learning. If something is not understood, the instruction is to "hide it in your heart, until God brings the revelation".
Spiritual growth status is measured by her prayers, testimonies and outward appearance. If little evidence is shown of growth over a period of time, she will receive a "visit" from the workers and/or comments from the friends. Attendance at all meetings, funerals and social function is now expected.
Established Professing - One who is fully and faithfully participating, endeavoring to become more like Christ by obedience to the doctrines of the fellowship. Dress code, meeting/funeral/social function attendance is expected and a rebuke may be in order for missing without a VERY good reason.
Questions are usually discouraged and seen as signs of doubt. Inquiries may be okay, though, provided the answers are accepted without question. The "appearance" of unity must be protected, since it's believed that if all f&w are of the same spirit, they must have the same view concerning the things of God. This leads to the unfortunate habit of sacrificing truth for unity. The established professing person will usually continue to hide questions in her heart for further revelation, or she may ask and continue to puzzle over evasive answers.
Thin-Ice Professing - This one has discovered discrepancies between what the bible says and what the f&w say. Her questions are usually scorned, and seen as attacks on the fellowship. If her questions are received and considered, it is still expected that she accept the f&w answers, or the options that result for having a "bad spirit" (which she has if she disagrees with the workers). The options are basically shape up or ship out.
Lost Out - This one is worse than the Lost/Worldly, because she has known the "truth" and rejected it. Or, maybe she just never "got it". ("It" being the spirit of faith that questions not.) She is unwilling, hard-hearted, gone haywire and has rejected the servants of God and the people of God. She has desired worldliness more than the "truth" and so on. Her questions now are seen as traps to snare the f&w. She is trying to destroy the fellowship by attacking it.
Ellen, it is a good thing to make serious decisions only after being well informed. The real truth of God...Jesus Christ...is open to scrutiny and is not afraid of it.
Please find Him first. He is the truth, the way and the life...not a fellowship or system of worship/ministry. Find Him first. Then trust His leading to fellowship where He knows you will grow and be a blessing to others. His body is made up of ALL new-life disciples, no matter where they fellowship. He is the head and they are the body. Different churches are parts of His body, and we should be careful about rejecting parts of the body. Can the hand say to the foot, "I don't need you?"
In leaving the fellowship, I was not rejecting it or the people, but rather, some of the doctrines I felt did not line up with scripture. One of those doctrines was the one that rejected me for believing that others outside the fellowship could be in Christ.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by kelvin on Jun 5, 2006 14:13:11 GMT -5
My first post after reading here for a while. I have to say that the worker comments claimed above sound so foreign to me that I think that the poster called "sturdylearning" must have experienced a "rogue" worker.
I cannot imagine the workers I know saying such things nor supporting anyone else who said such things. In 40 years (10 as elder) I've onlyb heard one of the terms that selah lists. The term "lost out" is applied to some who leave our fellowship (but not all), where they depart from Christianity altogether.
For the record. I (and all I know) uphold God the Son. I (and most I know) accept that there are saved Christians in other denominations.
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Post by a believer on Jun 5, 2006 15:19:45 GMT -5
I have never heard the workers uphold God the Son. I have heard then call him the Son of God and refer to him as our example, our pattern. But God, no, and hasn't there been workers who have been put out because of preaching that he was God.
I no of one that says that maybe there are Christan's outside of the fellowship. The workers very clearing call ministers outside of their group hirelings, and false preachers. I have never heard them accept another preacher outside of their group as a true preacher, they are all called false, churches are called false churches and those who accept the workers Gospel are the only ones who are saved, according to the workers and those in their church. I can well believe what the poster wrote as my experience was similar. I was called blind by the workers because I asked questions and had been to another church on one occasion. I would say that studylearning's expereince is more the norm than the exception. SOme other workers might not be so blunt, but the shunning would sure start when the word went out. Some are not so direct as this worker, but this is the belief of the group - that outsiders are not saved. and that Jesus was our pattern worker rather than God incarnate....
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Post by Charlene on Jun 5, 2006 15:31:29 GMT -5
I cannot understand how this is so polarised an argument. People seem either adamanat that God the Son is preached / believed or not. No in between.
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Post by Hal on Jun 5, 2006 15:32:47 GMT -5
I never heard such tripe. Of course we believe in God the Son. Who else? What did you guys get mixed up in, who say you used to be in our fellowship? Sounds like you guys was in a CULT, not in the F&W fellowship.
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studylearning unplugged
Guest
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Post by studylearning unplugged on Jun 5, 2006 16:29:57 GMT -5
No not tripe. facts. I tried very hard to understand if what I shared was deemed not edifying because of how I said it or something else. When the statements were made as I detailed in my first post of this thread, it was clear what was not wanted.
It was, do not speak about other churches having people being saved in them. Further it was fact that they said "We do not teach God Incarnate"
So if you think you know all about what is being taught in the fellowship of the F&W and want to imply that I am lying; May I ask you to inquire of your workers what they believe as to these issues. When you get an answer please come back and share it with us and tell us which worker (name) you asked.
Until then do not imply that I am lying.
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Post by selah on Jun 5, 2006 17:18:42 GMT -5
My first post after reading here for a while. I have to say that the worker comments claimed above sound so foreign to me that I think that the poster called "sturdylearning" must have experienced a "rogue" worker. I cannot imagine the workers I know saying such things nor supporting anyone else who said such things. In 40 years (10 as elder) I've onlyb heard one of the terms that selah lists. The term "lost out" is applied to some who leave our fellowship (but not all), where they depart from Christianity altogether. For the record. I (and all I know) uphold God the Son. I (and most I know) accept that there are saved Christians in other denominations. Hi Kelvin, This is so interesting, and it's not the first time I've discovered such strong differences in doctrine in the f&w fellowship. I think it has a lot to do with location. I never learned about Jesus being God until about a year after I left the fellowship. I was born and raised in it and professed. I'm 53 now. And, I knew of NONE who believed a person could be assured of salvation, and I knew NONE who accepted any other system of worship/ministry. I knew NONE who believed people could be in good standing with God outside of the f&w. Some said that if one believed, they would most certainly be drawn into the fellowship which was the ONLY right way to serve God and it went back to the shores of Galilee in an unbroken line of workers, having no founder other than Jesus Christ, Himself. I don't say this to bad-mouth the f&w. I'm just stating exactly what I was taught, and very clearly too. If this has changed, I'm VERY glad. I do believe that things are changing, and I remain hopeful. Wherever you are, it seems that the f&w have quite different beliefs, and perhaps I never would have left, had I fellowshipped where you do. Many of the changes I've heard about seem to be more recent, but you've been in the f&w for 40 years!! It seems impossible that you've never heard the things I've spoken of...but I definitely believe you. It's just so strange. Some of the terms I used may not be exact. For example, "established professing" might be more like "well established in the 'truth', and "newly professing" may be more like "new in the 'truth'." "Thin-ice professing" may be more like "on the fence"...but anyway, that was the general understanding of these references. Blessings, Linda
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Post by have it both ways on Jun 5, 2006 18:43:43 GMT -5
The discussion on this thread shows one of the problems with the 2 x 2's.
No central doctrine, Kelvin has it one way, Selah has it another way (which is what I grew up under but in US not in Canada). Both are right-in their area.
Even within state borders it is different-less legalistic if you are in urban and more strict in rural areas.
Until I studied it out for myself, never, ever did I hear Jesus was God. Never from the platform, never in private in-home visits.
Sincerely, "lost-out" "quit praying" "got her eyes on other things" "played (got too close) with the world" "strayed from the fold" "straddled the fence and fell out" "too bad, she fell away" "listened to wrong voices" "lost her first love"
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Post by GuestS on Jun 5, 2006 19:00:47 GMT -5
"Sounds like you guys was in a CULT, not in the F&W fellowship."
Yes, we WERE in a "cult" and it was called "truth"! The preachers were called workers. Those "priviliged" to hear them were then asked to feed and clothe them and give them a place to sleep. This second class of people were known as "friends." ALL other churches were considered "worldly." ALL other pastors that received a salary were called "false teachers." Jesus was NOT seen as God in the flesh. He was our example....and IF we tried hard enough we could be like him!
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 6, 2006 12:11:12 GMT -5
I have never heard the workers uphold God the Son. I have heard then call him the Son of God and refer to him as our example, our pattern. But God, no, and hasn't there been workers who have been put out because of preaching that he was God. I no of one that says that maybe there are Christan's outside of the fellowship. The workers very clearing call ministers outside of their group hirelings, and false preachers. I have never heard them accept another preacher outside of their group as a true preacher, they are all called false, churches are called false churches and those who accept the workers Gospel are the only ones who are saved, according to the workers and those in their church. I can well believe what the poster wrote as my experience was similar. I was called blind by the workers because I asked questions and had been to another church on one occasion. I would say that studylearning's expereince is more the norm than the exception. SOme other workers might not be so blunt, but the shunning would sure start when the word went out. Some are not so direct as this worker, but this is the belief of the group - that outsiders are not saved. and that Jesus was our pattern worker rather than God incarnate.... Jesus Christ, the Son of God but He is NOT God? Jesus Christ, the Son of God... then wouldn't you say He is one of the Godhead. Therefore, Jesus Christ has God's genes/nature in like unto His heavenly Father. So wouldn't you say Jesus Christ is God also? Nathan, Saying that Jesus is the Son of God is not the same as saying he is equal to God the Father and therefore God the Son. I know you and I believe that, but MOST F@W do not. That is simply a fact. I have always been taught that Jesus is the Son of God, but have never been taught that he is God the Son, The LORD of the OT or that he is equal to God the father in power, nature and ability. Like others on this thread, I have heard many times that the Trinity is false doctrine. I have also heard many times that Jesus IS NOT GOD- and when this is said it is very clear that the person saying this does not believe that Jesus is equal to God the Father even though he is the Son of God. It is very clear that they believe Jesus is not only subject to his father, but also that he has no power on his own. In fact the last time I heard a worker say "Jesus IS NOT GOD", he went on to clearly state "The saying "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit", are all false doctrine". FWIW, HFA
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 6, 2006 12:52:28 GMT -5
Nathan,
I know people misunderstand this and I understand why- because I myself was in the exact same place 5 years ago.
It was not until I finally got desperate enough to say "God please just show me who Jesus really is", that this understanding finally opened up for me. Up to then I was blind.
I do not see any desire in the F&W in our area to change- or even to try and understand. In fact it is quite the opposite.
I guess I will wait and see.
Love, HFA
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Post by How on Jun 6, 2006 13:19:38 GMT -5
Give them time... I believe more and more workers will speak more often on this subject Jesus is God/LORD/Yahweh/IAM that I AM in the near future.
How can you make a statement like this out of one side of your mouth and then insist that these same workers are people's only hope of hearing the true gospel of Christ - a Christ that you admitting that they are only gradually and slowly getting to know?
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Post by How on Jun 6, 2006 13:57:30 GMT -5
NB, master of doublespeak.
First you say that more and more workers are starting to speak about GOD THE SON.
Then you say most workers speak about THE SON OF GOD.
Nathan, are you without conscience? Does twisting words at will not prick your conscience at all? You know good and well that the two terms mean two entirely different things to most F&Ws. To imply otherwise is simply dishonest.
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 6, 2006 14:12:41 GMT -5
Nathan,
It does not concern me when a F or W does not have a full understanding of Christ as LORD and God. What you say about preaching that whoever believes on Jesus the Son of God and the Son of Man is fine -and IMHO -perfectly accurate.
But what I am very disturbed by is when F or W's go out of their way to say things like "Jesus is not God". That is a whole different ballgame and from what I can tell- would have been considered heretical teaching in the early church.
The open denial of the full divinity of Christ is pretty serious if you ask me. This is lowering Jesus to our level and denying that he is God manifest in the Flesh.
Love, HFA
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Post by hhh on Jun 6, 2006 14:15:35 GMT -5
It is one thing to not know, but it's another to deny.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 6, 2006 14:45:54 GMT -5
a few of the workers in the 2x2 fellowship don't have the full knowledge or understanding the Deity of Jesus or Jesus is God. How many is a few? What are their names? ...meanwhile I expect no reply from you, of course, since you never substantiate anything you say.
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 6, 2006 14:53:24 GMT -5
Nathan,
I am trying to be patient. I understand that this is a revelation. It just hurts me to think that anyone who understands this -is thought by many to "believe a false doctrine". And often this understanding is scoffed at by some who as much as say that anyone who believes that Jesus is God are totally lacking.
You asked:
"How can the friends and workers deny the full divinity of Jesus Christ when they accept Him as Lord and Savior? ".
Woudl this not be when they say, "Jesus is not God", or "Jesus risked his own salvation by coming to earth', or "Jesus received all his power from God", or "Jesus could have failed" or "Jesus had to save himself before he could save others".
All of these well entrenched beliefs deny the FULL divinity of Christ. Most F&W say they believe that Jesus was 100% divine. Yet from my own experience their definition of divine is different from what I now understand it to mean.
I think most friends see divine nature as being this perfect nature that makes us all love one another and get along and be perfect- but few see it as the full power and ability that God the father had within himself- a power that no other being can ever come close to having. This is the same power and ability that Christ had in that he is the LORD of the Universe and who is equal to God.
Love, HFA
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Post by sjg on Jun 6, 2006 14:55:39 GMT -5
"professing" and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are NOT the same thing. "Testing the meeting" is NOT the same as an altar call in an evangelical church. Granted the word "trinity" is not found in the scriptures, but the concept of the Godhead is.
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 6, 2006 14:57:40 GMT -5
a few of the workers in the 2x2 fellowship don't have the full knowledge or understanding the Deity of Jesus or Jesus is God. How many is a few? What are their names? ...meanwhile I expect no reply from you, of course, since you never substantiate anything you say. Your sarcastic oneliners are tiresome. Can you not post something positive for once??
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Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 6, 2006 15:04:11 GMT -5
How many is a few? What are their names? ...meanwhile I expect no reply from you, of course, since you never substantiate anything you say. Your sarcastic oneliners are tiresome. Can you not post something positive for once?? A few posts above you talked about trying to be patient. May I suggest that we do tried such a thing when it came to Nathan and just simply ran out.
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Post by nathan9 unplugged on Jun 6, 2006 15:25:43 GMT -5
Nathan9 can you please reveal to Bryan the answer to his question on another thread, or at very least grant me permission to interject !
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Post by nathan9 unplugged on Jun 6, 2006 15:42:49 GMT -5
Thank you Nathan9. Obviously I don't know what your answer would be. That is none of my business. However I will impart a "brief" reply to Bryan, then he will have received a reply from a nathan. Thank you for your kindness in cooperating. I am sincerely in your debt.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 6, 2006 16:41:53 GMT -5
Once again, nate sidesteps like a well-trained puppy, because he cannot be honest with us with asked to be held accountable, like some others on here.
nate, prue, innocentQ... 2x2s 1st, Christians 2nd
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