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Post by Pruebert on Jun 1, 2006 23:32:57 GMT -5
p.s. this idea of there being "no truth, only opinion," is one I find offensive eurp. It harkens back to this so-called post-modernist stuff And smacks of moral relativity The slipperly slope-Freudianism here is - 1. there is no truth, everything is opinion. 2. we are telling the truth, and it is our opinion. 3. our opinion is the truth, yours are opinions without truth. Post modernism in the unis came up against the life sciences, and when push came to shove, lost the argument. Having lost the argument doesn't mean Post Modernism lost the war. Thus we live in a world of moral relativism, and every man does what is right in his own eyes. There is no benchmark in Christ anymore.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 1, 2006 23:45:06 GMT -5
Pruebert,
So far this is one of the few things that we agree on (apart from the obvious such as the existence of God and the uniqueness of Christ).
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eurp
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Post by eurp on Jun 2, 2006 2:20:52 GMT -5
My problem with absolutes is that they are interpreted differently by different individuals.
What one says scripture means another says "no, it means something else".
There are few scriptures that have universal interpretation by all.
So one persons meaning, is their opinion as to what this means. Each has their opinion, their version, their "right" and "wrong".
You might disagree with this. Thats your opinion.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 2, 2006 2:57:53 GMT -5
Jesus certainly disagrees with you:
“You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God." (Matthew 22:29, ESV)
And the Bereans:
"Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." (Acts 17:11, ESV)
And Paul:
"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. " (2 Timothy 3:14-17, ESV)
"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9, ESV)
And Peter:
"but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;" (1 Peter 3:15, ESV).
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eurp
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Post by eurp on Jun 2, 2006 7:16:15 GMT -5
"Jesus certainly disagrees with you:"
but in my way of looking at this it reads "In Rob's opinion, Jesus certainly disagrees with you:"
your interpretation and that of another will be different for each of these verses.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 2, 2006 7:25:09 GMT -5
My problem with absolutes is that they are interpreted differently by different individuals. What one says scripture means another says "no, it means something else". There are few scriptures that have universal interpretation by all. So one persons meaning, is their opinion as to what this means. Each has their opinion, their version, their "right" and "wrong". You might disagree with this. Thats your opinion. And yours is yours...an opinion. So convictions on what the Bible says about certain things vary and there is no absolute/agreement except on a few things. Maybe those few things are what is important. Could you share any of those, since you indicated them? On the other hand, saying there is difference is an absolute and there is disagreement in that. So, according as one dismisses what is said in the Bible because of disagreement on absolutes, then one must dismiss what is said about absolutes....even that of eurp.
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eurp
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Post by eurp on Jun 2, 2006 8:10:24 GMT -5
Wat I didn't say is that I have no opinions, or no interpretations of scripture myself. I do not expect that ppl with different interpretations would agree with mine, as I do not agree wih those of others of a different iterpretation.
I agree, Gre, that there is variablility about interpretation of scripture. Some scriptures have little variation of interpretation, some have a lot.
If you wish to dismiss all I say based on my premise that there is disagreement on some things, so be it.
If you think that there's little disagreement about scripture then its my opinion that thats your opinion.
I could share some of the things on which I think there's relatively little disagreement, but I don't see the point. However, as you asked:
Jesus lived. Jesus was crucified.o Jesus rose again. There were disciples, some of whom kept records of the events.
but these points on which there is little disagreement, don't really get us all that far.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 2, 2006 8:20:44 GMT -5
Jesus said the Pharisees were wrong because they didn't know scripture. That means the meaning of scripture can be known.
Paul said scripture can equip the man of God for every good work. That means the meaning of scripture can be known else it could not equip one for every good work.
Paul also said the elders were to hold firmly to the trustworthy word and to teach sound doctrine and refute those that opposed it. That also means the meaning of scripture can be known else it would not be possible to teach sound doctrine and refute unsound doctrine.
There are many other similar scriptures. Either the scriptures are wrong in their message or you are. I wish you well in your agnostic post-modernist religion.
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eurp
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Post by eurp on Jun 2, 2006 9:50:21 GMT -5
I am not an agnostic.
I do accept that scripture can be learned, and that it can do the things you've mentioned.
You have taken my original point (that most scripture get interpreted by different people in various ways) way beyond the original point.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 2, 2006 10:09:16 GMT -5
That is your opinion. Because you hold it does not make it true.
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eurp
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Post by eurp on Jun 2, 2006 10:58:44 GMT -5
Rob you're right. So you judge me to be an agnostic, and as my opinions (like yours) could be wrong, and my holding them does not make them true then you could be right.
So you judge me a lost soul.
You could be right on that also.
It hasn't affected my opinion that I'm not an agnostic though.
Of course your opinion that I'm an agnostic might also be wrong, as your holding it does not make it true.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 2, 2006 11:08:06 GMT -5
So you judge me a lost soul. Did he?
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Post by Rob O on Jun 2, 2006 11:17:16 GMT -5
You don't get it eurp.
You're the one who claims there are no facts, just opinions. Only that ludicrous view leads me to respond as I have. If there are only opinions and we can't know which opinions are true or factual then agnosticism must follow. No knowledge is possible, only opinions and likes and dislikes.
All I have done is taken your position to its logical conclusion.
If you admit that some truths can be known then your belief that "there are no facts, only opinions" is false.
Or to put it another way:
The claim, "It is a fact that there are no facts, only opinions" is self-defeating, proving itself wrong. It utters nothing coherent, nothing truthful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2006 11:32:37 GMT -5
If there are no facts, then God has wasted His effort preserving the scriptures for us .
Karl
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 2, 2006 13:49:42 GMT -5
If there are no facts, then God has wasted His effort preserving the scriptures for us . Karl Karl, Do you believe Jesus teachings in Math 5-7 are literal or metaphoric? Are they something we should try and attain to or are they "beyond us"? Can we attain to these "ideals" if we are born again? Or do we simply cast ourselves at the foot of the cross and say "God be merciful to me a sinner"? My point here is that I highly doubt you could find anyone who would agree with you on EVERY single verse in these three chapters as to whether Jesus "true meaning" was literal or metaphoric (and therefore ideals). Yet we would all agree that they are "TRUTH" because Jesus said them. I believe this illustrates what eurp is saying. I do not agree with his/her statement that "there are no facts- only opinions". But I think I do know what they mean- that even plainly worded statements by Jesus himself can be interpreted in different ways. I just wish people would cut each other some slack instead of bikkering over symantics. Love, HFA
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Hope For All To Karl
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Post by Hope For All To Karl on Jun 5, 2006 10:17:17 GMT -5
Bump.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2006 11:17:59 GMT -5
If there are no facts, then God has wasted His effort preserving the scriptures for us . Karl Karl, Do you believe Jesus teachings in Math 5-7 are literal or metaphoric? Are they something we should try and attain to or are they "beyond us"? Can we attain to these "ideals" if we are born again? Or do we simply cast ourselves at the foot of the cross and say "God be merciful to me a sinner"? My point here is that I highly doubt you could find anyone who would agree with you on EVERY single verse in these three chapters as to whether Jesus "true meaning" was literal or metaphoric (and therefore ideals). Yet we would all agree that they are "TRUTH" because Jesus said them. I believe this illustrates what eurp is saying. I do not agree with his/her statement that "there are no facts- only opinions". But I think I do know what they mean- that even plainly worded statements by Jesus himself can be interpreted in different ways. I just wish people would cut each other some slack instead of bikkering over symantics. Love, HFA Sorry for not responding- I just didn't keep up with this thread. HFA-"Can we attain to these "ideals" if we are born again? Or do we simply cast ourselves at the foot of the cross and say "God be merciful to me a sinner"?" I believe that both are true. Born again people will live in this way, and when we do not, because born again people are not perfect, we repent, and then live as we ought to. The reason that I responded as I did is because there have been a lot of blanket statements made on the board lately, and some just simply are not true. I didn't know what Eurp meant by his statement, so I responded to the statement that was made. Karl
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 5, 2006 13:06:31 GMT -5
Karl,
Thanks for your response- and I was not meaning you when I said about "cutting others some slack".
I also agree that one line-blanket statements like "there are no facts- only opinions"-are both confusing and misleading.
However in my attempt to understand what this person meant my thoughts went to Math 5-7.
Everyone would agree that Jesus words in this sermon are all true. Yet many still have their own opinion as to what he meant by some of his teachings. Were they literal or "ideals"?
e.g. -what Jesus said about remarriage after divorce.
Some think Jesus meant that a person should never marry a divorced person- and to do so means you are living in sin.
Others believe there is provision in the forgiveness of Christ for this kind of situation.
And yet others believe the "truth" to be somewhere in between.
I have heard many opinions that support all "sides" of this issue. What is "fact" and what is just "opinion"?
I do not want to start another discussion on divorce and re-marriage- but I hope I am making some sense about fact -vs- opinion.
Jesus always seemed to go against popular opinion or what most men would think to be reasonable.
I am glad that when we look at a situation through the eyes of a loving God, things tend to be a little less "cut and dried".
Love, HFA
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Post by Wondering on Jun 5, 2006 21:58:38 GMT -5
Hi Clay I haven't read your articles yet but I promise to do so when it is all finished. if I find things logically or historically incorrect with my own site I will attend to that Thanks InnocentQ. I bet you are proud to have six children. Prue. Now there are six? He's a busy fellow!
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