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Post by so true on May 29, 2006 7:41:41 GMT -5
One thing that keeps people in "the truth" is the fact that professing saints seem so sincere. So sincere in their dress, meeting attendance, and all. Especially the older ones! So strict and separated. They just seem like the best people on earth. And of course, many of them ARE wonderful people.
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 29, 2006 10:17:27 GMT -5
One thing that keeps people in "the truth" is the fact that professing saints seem so sincere.. It is very possible to be sincerely wrong
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Post by spiderman on May 29, 2006 10:50:35 GMT -5
The vast majority are wonderful people. I have no argument or fault to find with anyone.
The trouble for me starts and ends with exclusivity. That one thing leads to much that is not true.
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Post by amazed on May 29, 2006 11:37:14 GMT -5
They are some of the kindest, most considerate people I've ever known. I think that's why it's so heartbreaking to know that most have no idea that they don't truly know the truth.
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Post by sincerely on May 29, 2006 11:45:10 GMT -5
Please tell me. What is this truth I don't know?
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Post by ClayRandall on May 29, 2006 11:58:20 GMT -5
Although I left never having professed, it was my impression even as a sullen teenager focused mostly upon cultivating my own self-inflicted angst that the majority of "2x2s" are indeed sincere.
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Maggie
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Post by Maggie on May 29, 2006 12:18:23 GMT -5
......They are some of the kindest, most considerate people I've ever known........ Yes, of course!!!! Many of us can say the same thing about our experience with the F&W people as individuals. In addition we can also say about the very same people to whom the above statement applies that they are also, in certain settings and situations, the most unkind, inconsiderate, mean-spirited, and abusive people. This would apply to individuals but more strikingly to the group as a whole or to subsets of individuals. Because the group dynamic of the fellowship requires that a united front be presented at all times and disagreement or dissent is not tolerated, people who would not naturally act in mean or cruel ways, can be persuaded to do so quite easily. I'm sure you can recall times when this would apply.
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Post by wondering on May 29, 2006 14:27:07 GMT -5
the tittle of this thread---workers and friends seem sincere made me think of 9-11. The terrorists who hit buildings with planes were sincere also. What is it that we are sincere about should be the question. There are many sincere people in hell.
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eurp
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Post by eurp on May 29, 2006 14:38:40 GMT -5
"...requires that a united front be presented at all times and disagreement or dissent is not tolerated,..."
typical of many posts this one seems to imply that the writers experiences are the same as would be found everywhere.
They are not actually.
In some agreas disagreement is tolerated.
In some areas there's no united front.
In some areas these are not issues.
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Post by sjg on May 29, 2006 15:14:33 GMT -5
Please tell me. What is this truth I don't know? His name is Jesus!
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eurp
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Post by eurp on May 29, 2006 15:16:36 GMT -5
sjg
Are you stating that I do not know Jesus?
edit. Sorry, misunderstood, and didn't check. I see you are answering the post back a few.
Are you saying that "wondering" does not know Jesus?
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Post by Gene on May 29, 2006 16:56:56 GMT -5
The vast majority are wonderful people. I have no argument or fault to find with anyone. The trouble for me starts and ends with exclusivity. That one thing leads to much that is not true. Spidey, Christianity as a religion maintains a belief in exclusivity -- except you believe in Christ, you cannot be saved. Do you adhere to that belief? If so, have you simply expanded the boundaries of, rather than renounced, exclusivity?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2006 17:27:08 GMT -5
Interesting that so many are impressed by the sincerity. In my family this was an act. My mother does not even believe in God, she plays the role of a devout Truther for the position and social role that it gives her. I imagine there must be sincere people in it but for my family it is mostly for show so I always assumed that most of them were also putting it on.
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Post by quit on May 29, 2006 18:32:16 GMT -5
so #12, your mother is sincerely faking it? what a waste of a life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2006 18:48:53 GMT -5
Not for her. She has great position, prestige, POWER. My parents are wealthy, they constantly host the top workers. They are highly respected and play the role well. My mother enjoys being a big fish in a little pond. She has an incredible amount of power and plays her role perfectly.
She has told me that she doesn't believe in God, but that she will enjoys being top tier in a social group, so it works for her.
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Post by GuestS on May 29, 2006 18:59:57 GMT -5
Sadly. I think many women "truther's" could say the same thing as "daisy's" mother. I've observed a great deal of "show" from many around here....and then listened to them say nasty things about another behind their back. Many take great pride in having an "open" home....and being frequently asked to provide room and board.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2006 19:11:38 GMT -5
I am not proud of it, just trying to be honest. In my family, many have professed for the wrong reasons. My grandmother did it to hurt her highly orthadox family she was extremely rebellious. My father professed because he loved my mother, my sis did it for parental approval. Are my family outliers? There must be others out there who are not 100 percent pure of heart.
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Post by praying on May 29, 2006 20:26:11 GMT -5
Daisy---if what you wrote about your mother is true, then she is not a Christain. Sounds like they are all hung up on a religion, not a relationship with Jesus. I will pray that God will draw her and the rest of your family to Him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2006 14:33:14 GMT -5
Of course she is not Christian, she doesn't believe in God much less Christianity. But only her immediate family knows this.
She says it is very important to at least tell people that you have a religion, they respect you more if they think that you have morals and all that.
She was raised in this, and has lifelong connections and influence as well.
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Post by Sylvestra on May 30, 2006 14:38:11 GMT -5
Please tell me. What is this truth I don't know? One of the major things (to me) is that the F & W believe themselves to be the "way" to heaven and that other Christian churches cannot offer that benefit. Best regards, Edy
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Post by Sylvestra on May 30, 2006 14:43:12 GMT -5
The vast majority are wonderful people. I have no argument or fault to find with anyone. The trouble for me starts and ends with exclusivity. That one thing leads to much that is not true. Spidey, Christianity as a religion maintains a belief in exclusivity -- except you believe in Christ, you cannot be saved. Do you adhere to that belief? If so, have you simply expanded the boundaries of, rather than renounced, exclusivity? Gene, We either believe Jesus words or we don't. I remember reading that He said we could not come to the Father except through HIM. Exclusive? Absolutely! Best, Edy
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Post by Gene on Jun 2, 2006 11:39:43 GMT -5
Spidey, Christianity as a religion maintains a belief in exclusivity -- except you believe in Christ, you cannot be saved. Do you adhere to that belief? If so, have you simply expanded the boundaries of, rather than renounced, exclusivity? Gene, We either believe Jesus words or we don't. I remember reading that He said we could not come to the Father except through HIM. Exclusive? Absolutely! Best, Edy Edy, I understand that we cannot go to the Father except through HIM. But: I'm not sure I can state this clearly, but I'll try. I wonder if the blood of Jesus is so all-encompassing of humanity and all sin, that even the Muslim is saved through the blood of Christ. We don't know the heart nor the circumstances of all those who never in their life time utter the words "Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is my Savior". Is it possible there are people who never say that (or some version of that), and yet still are saved by the blood of Christ and go to the Father through Him? Is it possible to NOT confess the name of Christ, and yet be saved? This could be a loaded question, really -- the infant, the mentally incapacited could fall into that category as well as the African bush-man who never meets a Christian. Etc..... This is not to stir the pot - it's a real question.
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Post by amen gene on Jun 2, 2006 12:24:20 GMT -5
A total amen to that, Gene! As a matter of fact, that very premise was preached in gospel meeting here just a few weeks ago!
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Post by Rob O on Jun 2, 2006 21:04:06 GMT -5
Gene,
I also think there are those saved who have not explicitly heard of and responded to Christ.
"And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation," (Revelation 5:9, ESV)
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands," (Revelation 7:9, ESV)
There is a great book called Who can be saved? by Terrance L. Tiessen (a Calvinist - which I am not) which argues the case well.
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Post by Gene on Jun 3, 2006 4:56:20 GMT -5
A total amen to that, Gene! As a matter of fact, that very premise was preached in gospel meeting here just a few weeks ago! A problem I have with workers preaching this is that there is usually the implied or stated or assumed caveat that once the person meets a f&w person, they must profess. And methinks that's the same feeling of most other Christians as well. If the African Bushman has an opportunity to hear and believe, they must, or they are damned. I'm just not so sure of that either. There are so many variables in the equation.
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Post by Jessi on Jun 3, 2006 7:34:06 GMT -5
I wonder if the blood of Jesus is so all-encompassing of humanity and all sin, that even the Muslim is saved through the blood of Christ. We don't know the heart nor the circumstances of all those who never in their life time utter the words "Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is my Savior". Is it possible there are people who never say that (or some version of that), and yet still are saved by the blood of Christ and go to the Father through Him? Is it possible to NOT confess the name of Christ, and yet be saved? This could be a loaded question, really -- the infant, the mentally incapacited could fall into that category as well as the African bush-man who never meets a Christian. Etc..... This is not to stir the pot - it's a real question. Rob wrote to Gene: I also think there are those saved who have not explicitly heard of and responded to Christ.Rob, do you mean babies and special people who haven't understanding; for their infirmities would not allow it? Under what circumstances could one be saved, "not having explicitly heard of and responded to Christ"? Thanks. Jessi Gene (& others who may be toying with ecumenism): If the Christ is the Creator of all things (John 1:3), and if God gave certain people out of the world as a gift to the Son (John 17:9), and He bought the church with His own blood (Acts 20:28), how could the idea be entertained that Christ is all-inclusive? God will have mercy on whomever He will (Rom 8 & 9). He has people in every tribe, tongue and nation, but it is obvious from this passage that not ALL in all tribes, tongues and nations are His--and HE will draw those who are His to Himself through Christ (Jn 6:44). Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord (Rom 14:11). Muslims, etc, are included in the common grace of Holy God, in that He lets them live. His sun shines and His rain rains on the just and the unjust alike (Matt 5:45+). But if they never come to him, they weren't His. And all the goodness of this life is all they will ever have. His common grace is that they laugh and have joy and peace and experience happiness or excitement or love in their lifetime. Luke 16:19-31 expounds on this idea when Abraham tells the rich man, "Child, remember that in your lifetime, you received your good things; and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things; but now, he is comforted here and you are in anguish." Christ is Lord over all, Jessi
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Post by nope on Jun 3, 2006 7:46:20 GMT -5
This particular worker certainly doesn't imply, state or assume that caveat, Gene, because he doesn't believe it!
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Post by Rob O on Jun 3, 2006 8:03:31 GMT -5
Jessi wrote:
I would suggest you read the book I recommended to Gene. I am not an ecuminist and I would also reject the notion that those who consciously reject Christ can be saved.
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