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Post by Rob O on May 20, 2006 21:38:57 GMT -5
You wrote:
I'm one of those that has not been chosen to be saved. Of this I'm sure. Just not chosen.
As salvation isn't by works, there's nothing I can do about this situation.
...and.....
I have read the bible a lot. Yes i have sought after God, but that isn't what saveds a person.
People are chosedn by God. Some are chosen, some not. More are not chosen than are chosen.
I'm unhappily in the majority.
My questions:
Leaving aside the debate over predestination and what it means/doesn't mean, I'm curious as to why you believe you are not chosen according to your understanding of "chosen".
This is not merely academic. I wonder if you are creating an unnecessary obstacle for yourself, but I'd need to know what you're thinking and why.
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Post by puzzled on May 21, 2006 1:47:23 GMT -5
I find it hard to explain my thoughts without referring to predestination.
I understand that there are 2 groups of people. Those chosen to be saved, and those not chosen. We cannot make the decision as to which group we are in. We can't influence this division, we cant earn our way from one to the other, we cant work for our salvation.
So, we need to understand which group we are in, and my method was to study, read , pray. The net conclusion of this was that I'm in the group of those not chosen.
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Post by Rob O on May 21, 2006 1:48:51 GMT -5
Why do you think this to be the case? What evidence have you arrayed in front of yourself that leads you to this conclusion?
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Post by puzzled on May 21, 2006 2:04:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you are asking all this Rob, but...
I don't really know how to explain this. I have tried prayer. There's no answer, but sometimes I do read in the bible sorta answers that indicate unsaved, hardened.
I have no peace that I expect saved ppl get.
I guess that the answer to this question (saved or not) is not as "evidence" thing, its a feeling. Do saved ppl get "exidence" ?
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Post by Rob O on May 21, 2006 2:08:51 GMT -5
Why I'm asking is the fact that you are concerned about it indicates to me that you are not hardened, but rather confused.
Rather than dissect this in public would you care to send me a private message with your email address? I'd like to talk about this if you would like to as well.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on May 21, 2006 3:16:13 GMT -5
If God simply chooses who he wants, then I think the life and death of Jesus is inconsequential and neither was necessary.
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Post by puzzled on May 21, 2006 7:24:47 GMT -5
Rob, thanks for the offer of private email, but I'm wary of this, having had some bad expereinces in past. I'm not saying you are bad, just being careful.
Of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins, I don't think this is a matter of being chosen or not, that is a case of salvations by works. They did things that infleunced the outtcome. Most scripture says we cannot infleunce the outcome.
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Post by happy on May 21, 2006 8:18:57 GMT -5
For what it's worth...Rob is safe to email. I emailed him and he knows my name, location etc. Never revealed any of that.
Happy
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Post by ilylo on May 21, 2006 8:48:36 GMT -5
I'll add my support for trusting Rob. He owes me money!
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Post by selah on May 21, 2006 9:58:07 GMT -5
I do agree with Rob, that your obvious concern over this shows that your heart is NOT hardened.
Ask God to help your unbelief. Ask God to give you faith to believe. And then receive it. Open yourself to Him, and verbalize it by saying, "I now receive the faith you give me; faith to believe that salvation is mine in Jesus Christ my Savior."
Don't let your mind play tricks on you. Trust God. He LOVES you. There are those who refuse to receive faith to believe, but from all you've shared with us so far, it seems that you are one who wills to receive it. You desire it, now you need to follow your desire with an act of submission. Surrender to God's will for you. He desires that ALL would be saved. We know that isn't going to happen, but it does happen for those who believe. So ask God to help you believe.
That is a request according to His will, and He has said in His word that He will grant it.
Believe the Word of God. Ask God to help you believe it.
Do you believe in the name of the Son of God? If you do, John wrote something for you:
1 John 5:13-15: I write these things to you (puzzled) who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us --whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.
Puzzled, please trust the truth of God's word for YOU.
Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in..
You do not need to persist in unbelief. Surrender your unbelief to God, like any other sin. Ask His forgiveness and ask Him to fill you with truth.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
This thought that you are already confirmed as one who is eternally lost, is opposed to what God says, so it cannot be His voice you've been hearing.
My prayers are with you. Listen to God's voice. Read it in His word. Seek God's truth about you. Don't lean on your own understanding.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
I, like Rob, am curious to know how you've been deceived into believing you are beyond God's redemption. Are there bible verses that "seem" to tell you that? Maybe we can help you understand them better?
Blessings, Linda
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Post by puzzled on May 21, 2006 10:09:37 GMT -5
To quote from the post of Ithascome..
Here is an eye opener "amazed" RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden
This is one of several scriptures that clearly state that not everyone will be saved. Revelation is full of those that don't "make it".
Theres plenty of scripture to state that not all get saved.
There is therfore a group of those unsaved ppl.
I just know in my heart that I'm one of them - beyond mercy.
I don't think this is worth a long discussion about, its just a fact of life.
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Post by selah on May 21, 2006 10:30:21 GMT -5
Are YOU worth a long discussion about this? Is your eternal destiny worth spending some time sorting this out? What if the conclusion you've drawn really is false? What if there is hope for you? Don't you want to examine the possibility?
Here's the truth...YOU ARE WORTH IT! Period.
It is absolutely true. There are those who will not be saved. But those who believe WILL be saved, and our believing comes from God, and He says we need to ask Him and that He WILL answer, and that He WILL save us if we receive His Son.
There are those who won't receive His Son. Some whose hearts have been hardened....even by God. But why? Because of unbelief. Romans 9: 30-32 (same chapter as your quoted verse)
Some pursue righteousness, as if it could be obtained by behaving in a righteous manner or following rules and laws. This is demonstrating "unbelief", because true belief depends on Jesus' righteousness, not our own, to bring God's favor upon us.
The ability to believe this way comes from God, just like the revelation of who Jesus is comes from the Father, and it comes by surrendering our own beliefs/unbeliefs to His truth.
YOU ARE WORTH the effort it takes to closely examine these things, puzzled.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 12:15:09 GMT -5
Thanks Linda ... I wish I could spend some time with you... just talking... about God. You really seem to have a handle on things.
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Post by selah on May 21, 2006 12:34:46 GMT -5
Hi John, I wish we could too. Not because I have a handle on things, but because we learn from each other. Talking about God is one of the ways we learn and grow. I learn so much by participating on this board, it's unbelievable!! Thanks John. Are you Canadian? Blessings, Linda
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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 12:38:26 GMT -5
No I am very far away... in Texas. ;D
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Post by selah on May 21, 2006 13:00:50 GMT -5
Awe...that's too bad. Well, if we get a chance to visit in person this side of heaven...GREAT. If not, I'll see you there, brother!
Blessings, Linda
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Post by puzzled on May 21, 2006 14:03:16 GMT -5
I thank you for your concern, but my reading suggests that there's nothing I can do to get saved, and, further, thats its a matter already decided. Are you suggesting that its my choice not Gods? Are you suggesting that I can do something about this?
I've read the bible and this is the conclusion I have come to. (I could be wrong, as you say Linda , but so far have not found anything to change that conclusion).
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Post by selah on May 21, 2006 14:52:40 GMT -5
God has already made the choice that He wants ALL men to be saved.
2 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
But, we know other scripture that says ALL men will not be saved. Why? Because of unbelief. And why is there unbelief? Usually for a lack of the knowlege of the truth.
The Spirit of God convicts us of our sin by giving us that knowledge. So, that's a work of God's mercy, not our own choice.
In order to believe, we must have faith, and even that comes from God.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith --and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God --not by works, so that no one can boast.
So, really the only thing we contribute to our own salvation is our surrender. It is not "works". It is simply surrender of our own ways, our own beliefs/unbeliefs to HIS TRUTH. It is "resting" in His provision, Jesus Christ, for righteousness and for redemption from our sin.
But sometimes, even when there is the knowledge of the truth, and faith to believe, people will still not be saved. God has poured out His mercy freely. God has brought revelation to the heart, by His Spirit. God has even provided the faith to believe. So why are some still not saved?
Because they choose to hold on to their sin. They choose to trust their own judgement rather than God's. They choose their own works, rather than Christ's work on the cross. They choose to depend on their own understanding, rather than the truth of God. They choose not to surrender.
In this way, the choice rests on man, because he allows his heart to be hardened. God hardens the heart due to unbelief or the lack of trust in Him. Sometimes this is when the enemy comes in to bind people in deception.
So, puzzled, if that is where you are, I believe you have made that choice, not God. And yes, I believe you can do something about this. You have the ability to change your mind; that's called repentence.....turning and walking toward God instead of away from Him. And when you make that choice, your heart will begin to soften. The softer it gets, the more of God's truth will sink in.
It means choosing to listen to God's voice instead of the voice of one who seeks to destroy.
Still praying, Linda
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 21, 2006 15:17:25 GMT -5
John..anywhere near Longview TX?
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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 16:36:55 GMT -5
Linda... I like that ... we choose to surrender. I think faith/belief comes after that. No IllinoisGal I live close to Dallas... on the northeast side. I did go to college near Longview.... but that was 30 years ago.
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