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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 0:46:31 GMT -5
It would seem that God has two wills... some will be hardened and some will be saved.
The Hardening Work of God... This is a difficult area to look at in Scripture.
The most well known example of this is Pharaoh’s heart. Exodus 8:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me. God’s will is that Israel be set free. Nevertheless, God also wills and designs that Pharaoh not let them go.
Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
This work of God is not unique merely to Pharaoh, but happened on other occasions as well. Moses requested to pass through the land of Heshbon for the well being of the people so that they would not be attacked. Yet notice in Deut. 2:30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.
We see this again in Joshua 11:19-20 There was not a city which made peace with the sons of Israel except the Hivites living in Gibeon; they took them all in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.
Paul also shows us this hardening of God as a part of His plan that will involve salvation for Jew and Gentile in Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
We might ask "How can God send someone to Hell that He has hardened?" The only thing I can think of is.... God is Sovereign; God is Good; God is Wise; and God is Just!
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pete
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by pete on May 21, 2006 4:30:21 GMT -5
I agree with Gene in post #6: it is this kind of twisted thinking that makes people want to quit religion altogether. If indeed we are just actors on God's big stage and our choices don't mean anything then why do we get so angry and upset when people make "bad" choices? After all, it's God who made them that way. If you're going to get upset, get mad at God! This is one of those issues that is so contradictory in the Bible it could lead a person to drink. Some scripture makes it very plain that we are to "seek, knock, ask" so that we can find Truth. Jesus commended the Queen of Sheba for seeking answers. But then other scriptures (as noted in earlier posts) tell us that God chooses who he chooses, and if you're not one of the chosen it's your tough luck! Even if God purposely made you a scoundrel you get to suffer eternal damnation for being a scoundrel. But don't hold it against God, because he's merciful, good, and kind. Huh?? It's interesting to me that eveyone feels THEY are the chosen ones (except Puzzled, apparently), since God only chooses a few. Coincidental isn't it that "everybody else but me and my little band of friends" got the short straw when God was picking the winners. Oh, and why does God get "angry" with people in the Bible? We get angry when people don't do what we expect of them. If God pre-engineered folks to misbehave, how/why could he be angry with them?? Doesn't add up, does it? I'm going to keep asking, seeking, knocking...
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Post by lacpastorunplugged on May 21, 2006 6:51:24 GMT -5
;D It would seem that God has two wills... some will be hardened and some will be saved. The Hardening Work of God... This is a difficult area to look at in Scripture. The most well known example of this is Pharaoh’s heart. Exodus 8:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me. God’s will is that Israel be set free. Nevertheless, God also wills and designs that Pharaoh not let them go. Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. This work of God is not unique merely to Pharaoh, but happened on other occasions as well. Moses requested to pass through the land of Heshbon for the well being of the people so that they would not be attacked. Yet notice in Deut. 2:30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today. We see this again in Joshua 11:19-20 There was not a city which made peace with the sons of Israel except the Hivites living in Gibeon; they took them all in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord had commanded Moses. Paul also shows us this hardening of God as a part of His plan that will involve salvation for Jew and Gentile in Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." We might ask "How can God send someone to Hell that He has hardened?" The only thing I can think of is.... God is Sovereign; God is Good; God is Wise; and God is Just! My friend, John..... ;D The virgins represent Israel, and Jesus is the groom. He told that story to people in the 1st century and expected the that time to understand it. Karl What is your interpretation of the parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins in Matthew 25? Did God predestined the 5 wise virgins to be LOST? and the 5 wise virgins to be saved before they were born? Or do you believe the 5 Virgins found themselves outside of the gate of the marriage feast because of their "own" choices for "Neglecting" to check their vessels oil? Just curious. Thanks.
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 21, 2006 8:11:58 GMT -5
I Myself dont believe in predestination. I do believe that God knows who will and will not make it. However, I believe we control if we will or not. God gives us the choice to control our own destiny.
The bible does says in 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I dont believe it is his will that any of us should die unsaved.
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 8:13:02 GMT -5
ithascome; Yes, I stated this in an earlier post, maybe on the other thread.
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Post by Gene on May 21, 2006 8:43:24 GMT -5
Oh, and why does God get "angry" with people in the Bible? We get angry when people don't do what we expect of them. If God pre-engineered folks to misbehave, how/why could he be angry with them?? Doesn't add up, does it? A former worker and companion for whom I have the greatest respect used this analogy: It's like a man who builds a machine to make bolts, and then he's hopping mad when it doesn't make nuts.
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Post by Just Looking on May 21, 2006 9:05:47 GMT -5
IllinoisGal,
This view couldn't be further from the truth of the Bible. If predestination is clear in scripture why would you choose to dismiss it? Is it because it doesn't fit with your belief that we are in control? Satan would like you to think like that just as he convinced Eve of the same thing.
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 9:17:19 GMT -5
IllinoisGal, This view couldn't be further from the truth of the Bible. If predestination is clear in scripture why would you choose to dismiss it? Is it because it doesn't fit with your belief that we are in control? Satan would like you to think like that just as he convinced Eve of the same thing. How would Satan have any sway over us if we are predestined no matter what we do?
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Post by Grace Reigns on May 21, 2006 9:34:42 GMT -5
The title of this thread is blasphemous... and some of the posts carry the blasphemy banner.
Once again, we are taking a very rich yet simple issue and dressing it in rags as we rube-goldberging it.
Why does man insist on putting shackles on the salvation of Jesus Christ?
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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 9:59:27 GMT -5
First of all the title of this thread is not blasphemous because it is a question. How else can one learn if you do not question. I have presented several verses that some people seem to want to ignore. Instead they ask me questions ... I have said I do not know the answers ... I started this thread to present an idea and to learn.
I will throw the hot potato back in.... lets see who will catch it this time.
Judas was told what he would do before he did it.... did he make his own choice? Or was it just part of God's plan.
amazed... if you read the story of Judas... notice how Satan entered into Judas after Jesus told Judas that he would betray Him.
I have another question. Did Judas go to hell? There is a place that says that the 12 would rule over tha 12 tribes of Israel. Judas was one of the 12. Did he loose his place been he betrayed Jesus?
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Post by Grace Reigns on May 21, 2006 10:20:57 GMT -5
First of all the title of this thread is not blasphemous because it is a question. Oh yes, now I see the question mark after the grammatically ambiguous sentence/question. I started this thead to present an idea and to learn. Fine. Then learn. It is my opinion that even such a question itself QUESTIONS THE SAVING POWER OF JESUS CHRIST which, as I see it, is blasphemy. Nathan Judas was told what he would do before he did it.... did he make his own choice? Or was it just part of God's plan. First, who is Nathan Judas? (Unless you are calling me Nathan, which would be a first. Does he *really* believe in Grace?) Jesus knew Judas' nature. Judas still made a choice. We are no different. We are born sinners. It is our nature to sin but we still make our own choices. Our nature would seperate us from God's love. Our salvation by the Grace of Jesus Christ is our ONLY hope.
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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 10:27:23 GMT -5
I was going to ask nathan that question... but decided to present it to all. I corrected it.
If you will look back you will notice that this was 'amazed' question in the first post of this thread. It is a good question.
Ok it was Judas' nature.... so God knew Judas nature... and God used that nature??? I wonder if Jesus would have died on the cross if it had not been for Judas' nature. I have another question. Did Judas go to hell? There is a place that says that the 12 would rule over tha 12 tribes of Israel. Judas was one of the 12. Did he loose his place been he betrayed Jesus?
I have learned something about your nature. I love you my brother... don't kill me. I am sorry you feel that way. I think you are wrong. The Bible tells us to seek. Sometime when you seek you find things that cause you to question. If the questions are not answered you may loose faith. Would you want that to happen to me?
I have for the longest time bucked against Atheist ideas. They make good points. If Christians always stick their heads in the sand and say words like blasphemy you will never be very useful in God's war against Satan. Do you think an Atheist cares if you call him a name?
I have showed you the other side of the coin... It is in the Bible... you do not like it.... I am sorry... it is there. I believe in your side of the coin. I believe that Jesus died to save me. I am saved.
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 11:18:44 GMT -5
I fail to see the purpose of seeking if we are already chosen to be saved or not. I believe that God's chosen ones are those who were seeking, and believed. I believe that the ones who were hardened were hardened for God's purpose.
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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 11:38:18 GMT -5
Study to show yourself approved of God 2 Tim. 2:15
Approved means to go through the fire... pass the test... become justified. that verse also goes on to talk about rightly dividing the word of God.
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 12:50:10 GMT -5
Study to show yourself approved of God 2 Tim. 2:15 II Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I completely agree. Also: Romans 10: 6-10 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
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Post by Grace Reigns on May 21, 2006 12:50:33 GMT -5
I fail to see the purpose of seeking if we are already chosen to be saved or not. I think the word "chosen" is often misused by Christians. Seek first. Find second. Use Third. Using makes us chosen. Read on... The salvation of Jesus Christ is a gift. We seek after it, not knowing what it is. Then we find it. At this point, we can accept the gift or reject it. We accept the gift by allowing the grace of God to allow his spirit to dwell within us. We reject the gift by rejecting his spirits longing to dwell within us. Since the gift is an ongoing thing (God gives, we receive), both parties must *choose* to continue the relationship. God is not willing that any should perish. In the traditional english sense of the word, God 'chooses' all. Not all accept though- so whether or no we are chosen is up to us.
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 12:51:53 GMT -5
I fail to see the purpose of seeking if we are already chosen to be saved or not. I think the word "chosen" is often misused by Christians. Seek first. Find second. Use Third. Using makes us chosen. Read on... The salvation of Jesus Christ is a gift. We seek after it, not knowing what it is. Then we find it. At this point, we can accept the gift or reject it. We accept the gift by allowing the grace of God to allow his spirit to dwell within us. We reject the gift by rejecting his spirits longing to dwell within us. Since the gift is an ongoing thing (God gives, we receive), both parties must *choose* to continue the relationship. God is not willing that any should perish. In the traditional english sense of the word, God 'chooses' all. Not all accept though- so whether or no we are chosen is up to us. Don't misunderstand me. That was a question to "ithascome". I completely agree that we need to seek God. I also agree that we choose to follow him and that makes us his chosen ones. Please read the rest of my post. "I fail to see the purpose of seeking if we are already chosen to be saved or not. I believe that God's chosen ones are those who were seeking, and believed. I believe that the ones who were hardened were hardened for God's purpose."
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 21, 2006 15:32:52 GMT -5
IllinoisGal, This view couldn't be further from the truth of the Bible. If predestination is clear in scripture why would you choose to dismiss it? Is it because it doesn't fit with your belief that we are in control?
Maybe I was confusing what I said or didnt explain it throughly. I believe God gives us the choice to either live for him or reject him. I do believe he knows in the end what we will chose but it is us that controls our own destiny. You make dumb choices ya get dumb results.
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BC
Senior Member
Posts: 852
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Post by BC on May 21, 2006 17:29:38 GMT -5
Amazed,
Hi, I was a little saddened when I read what you feel. I think of Paul(Saul as he was known) and he had to go through some pretty hard experiences before he saw the purpose of God. God said to him "is it hard to kick against the pricks?" God had chosen him but he wasn't willing to accept the gift as God had presented it, he felt he needed to do things his way.
God offers all men the opportunity of eternal life through his grace but we need to come to the place that we realize it is being offered and then be willing to accept it on his terms, NOT our own terms.
Some on this board don't believe in free will acceptance of Gods gift, I do. There is salvation offered and if we reach out and put our lives in his hands we will receive eternal life. If we turn our backs or refuse to see what is offered then God is not going to force us to accept. He wants a willing loving people to be with him in paradise.
My advice to you is to keep praying and reading his word and he will reveal all things to you. God very very seldom told anyone that they were doomed to a lost eternity and then it was usually because they had done some pretty horrific things against God. Even then some that did evil in the sight of the lord are with him in paradise today.
[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 17:41:02 GMT -5
BC, Why are you saddened? I don't disagree with you. Anything I said to the contrary was in questioning "ithascome". I DO believe in salvation by the grace and mercy of God. I DO believe in salvation by the blood of Christ. I DO believe that it is our choice to seek him and to believe in his sacrifice for the redemption of our sins. I DO believe that we are his chosen ones because we chose to be saved by his blood that he freely gave.
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 17:44:41 GMT -5
Am I loosing my mind? I was the one to start out defending the point of choosing our salvation (it started in another thread) and now everyone thinks I'm the one who says we have no choice. I don't get it.
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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 17:45:05 GMT -5
Linda hit the nail on the head for me in another thread. She talked about choosing to surrender.
We must finally surrender to the fact that WE ARE NOT IN CONTROL. God is. I do not think we choose to believe... it is not in our nature. If we did that would make us in control.
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Post by ithascome on May 21, 2006 17:47:21 GMT -5
"amazed" do you feel that you are not in control. ;D
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BC
Senior Member
Posts: 852
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Post by BC on May 21, 2006 17:48:33 GMT -5
Hi amazed, I was saddened because it sounded like you had given up on yourself? if this isn't true then I celebrate. I love to love and to love others and always feel sad when others suffer, just a big ole softee.
[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 17:49:14 GMT -5
OK, I think it's a matter of wording. We choose to surrender to God's will. I don't disagree. I don't think I want to post anymore. Even the written word get's twisted faster than you can blink.
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 17:50:37 GMT -5
To BC I absolutely haven't given up. I love God's Word. I love the truth of the Gospel. I love everything about it. I celebrate it everyday. Thank you for your concern. I do appreciate it.
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BC
Senior Member
Posts: 852
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Post by BC on May 21, 2006 17:51:44 GMT -5
Amazed, Hey were you posting as "puzzled" for a time?
I think I may have read it like you were posted as puzzled then rgistered as amazed, at least that was the flow of the posts that I got.
Oops may have miss labled you.
[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
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Post by amazed on May 21, 2006 17:52:40 GMT -5
No. I wasn't posting as puzzled. Reading puzzled's posts, broke my heart.
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