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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 11:28:34 GMT -5
This is from a thread that got lost...
I could never say that about God "amazed".
We must always keep in mind that God is obligated to save no one and that we all justly deserve His wrath. Therefore, if God saves anyone, it is purely an act of His mercy. It would have been just for God to wipe out all mankind in judgment, so why, then, would it be unjust for Him to judge some and have mercy on the rest.
If six people owe me a debt, for example, and I forgive four of them their debt but still require the remaining two to pay up, I am totally within my right. How much more so for God? (Reread The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard: Matt 20:1-16)
Here is an eye opener "amazed" RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Yes it is true.
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Post by puzzled on May 20, 2006 13:13:26 GMT -5
I'm one of those that has not been chosen to be saved. Of this I'm sure. Just not chosen.
As salvation isn't by works, there's nothing I can do about this situation.
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Post by puzzled on May 20, 2006 13:13:46 GMT -5
I'm one of those that has not been chosen to be saved. Of this I'm sure. Just not chosen.
As salvation isn't by works, there's nothing I can do about this situation.
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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 13:31:56 GMT -5
Why do you feel this way? The Bible encourages us to Seek, and provides instructions for the Seeking. Are you seeking?
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Post by puzzled on May 20, 2006 14:12:49 GMT -5
I have read the bible a lot. Yes i have sought after God, but that isn't what saveds a person.
People are chosedn by God. Some are chosen, some not. More are not chosen than are chosen.
I'm unhappily in the majority.
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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 15:50:09 GMT -5
What makes you think this is true and how do you know you are not chosen.... it may be that God just has not revealed it to you yet. I believe you are chosen but just do not know it yet.
I was in your shoes once.
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2006 16:06:45 GMT -5
This is from a thread that got lost... I could never say that about God "amazed". We must always keep in mind that God is obligated to save no one and that we all justly deserve His wrath. Therefore, if God saves anyone, it is purely an act of His mercy. It would have been just for God to wipe out all mankind in judgment, so why, then, would it be unjust for Him to judge some and have mercy on the rest. If six people owe me a debt, for example, and I forgive four of them their debt but still require the remaining two to pay up, I am totally within my right. How much more so for God? (Reread The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard: Matt 20:1-16) Here is an eye opener "amazed" RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.Yes it is true. This is the kind of teaching that makes people turn away from religion entirely.
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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 16:11:21 GMT -5
Yes but it is in the Bible... so what do you have to say about it? do you think it should not be there.... is it wrong?
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Post by puzzled on May 20, 2006 16:13:34 GMT -5
ithascome:
You answered (in an earlier post) your own question that you posed me.
"Here is an eye opener "amazed" RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. "
I'm one of those that God has chosen to harden not to have mercy on.
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2006 16:18:37 GMT -5
Yes but it is in the Bible... so what do you have to say about it? do you think it should not be there.... is it wrong? I will not argue scripture, as I do not believe that the bible as we know it today is not subject to error.
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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 16:19:27 GMT -5
"puzzled" I'm sorry. I hope you are wrong. So I guess you feel you are hardened... maybe this is part of God's purpose.... perhaps you will crack some day.... I did.
Gene you would have to believe the whole Bible was in error not to believe in a 'chosen people' because from the OT on it is all about a chosen people. God's people.
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Post by amazed on May 20, 2006 16:39:26 GMT -5
I Tim 2; 3-6 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
II Pet; 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 16:59:27 GMT -5
Those are wonderful verses "amazed". It is true God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. But will they? Can any of us be saved without God's mercy?
"Grace is getting what we do not deserve. Mercy is not receiving what we do deserve."
"puzzled" you will be even more puzzled when you receive everlasting life. I can hear it now. "Wait a minute God... I don't deserve this ...don't you know!"
God will smile and say "YES... I KNOW MY CHILD!"
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Post by l on May 20, 2006 17:25:33 GMT -5
A fathers love runs deeper then that? so the guy enters heaven and said why am I here if God only knew some of the things I've done he would never accept me into his kingdom...Look man a fathers love runs deeper then that
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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 17:31:45 GMT -5
And what do you mean by that Las.
I think that all of us who have an honest heart will wonder why God has chosen us to be in His home... truely none of us deserve it.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
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Post by l on May 20, 2006 17:35:06 GMT -5
The little boy comes home from school he has been in a fight he is scared of what his father will do this is just an example that the father doesn't give up lovin his boy just because he got in a school fight a fathers love runs much deeper then that
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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 18:07:19 GMT -5
I agree but how does this story apply to what was written in previous posts? Nothing was said about God not loving us but rather of God having mercy and grace.
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 20, 2006 18:48:37 GMT -5
[quote author
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" [/quote]
That may be true ithascome but the very next verse is almost a BUT..........It tells us God has set a propitiation for us
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2006 18:55:53 GMT -5
"puzzled" I'm sorry. I hope you are wrong. So I guess you feel you are hardened... maybe this is part of God's purpose.... perhaps you will crack some day.... I did. Gene you would have to believe the whole Bible was in error not to believe in a 'chosen people' because from the OT on it is all about a chosen people. God's people. IHC -- I may have misinterpreted what you wrote earlier. Do you believe that God forgives some but requires others to pay the price?
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 20, 2006 18:56:49 GMT -5
I will not argue scripture, as I do not believe that the bible as we know it today is not subject to error. There is a big difference in discussion scriptures and arguing them....... 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us All scripture is given by insopiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness. I dont believe the bible is incorrect
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Post by one of them on May 20, 2006 19:16:40 GMT -5
It's surprising that people think there are people who will find themselves unexpectedly in heaven! While it's true that faith in Jesus is what saves us, if that faith does not lead to us "knowing" God in a personal way as our Father, how do we attain eternal life?
John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they *know* you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Matt. 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I *never knew you*; depart from me, ...
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, *'I do not know where you come from.'*
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Post by amazed on May 20, 2006 19:20:32 GMT -5
I never, ever said that we can be saved without God's mercy and grace. My original point is that it is a choice we make. A choice God wants us to make, and extends to all.
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2006 19:22:02 GMT -5
I will not argue scripture, as I do not believe that the bible as we know it today is not subject to error. There is a big difference in discussion scriptures and arguing them....... 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us All scripture is given by insopiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness. I dont believe the bible is incorrect You're right, IG. I do enjoy discussing the scriptures as a great book full of inspiration, wisdom, and eternal truth. I do not, however, believe that every word, every thought, every letter, is the infallible, inspired word of God. If you believe it is, then you and I would have a very difficult time discussing issues of good, evil, right, wrong, godliness, etc. You would state a position, and would say that it's true because a certain passage of scripture says thus and such. I would challange your view based on observation, intuition, experience, etc. You would tell me that my belief is invalid because it is not supported by scripture (as you interpret it.) I would tell you that your belief is not consistent with my experience, observation, etc., and your reliance on scripture as proof would hold no weight with me. For all those reasons I hesitate to discuss scripture with anyone who believes every word of it is the inspired, infallible word of God.
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Post by Rob O on May 20, 2006 19:46:53 GMT -5
(new thread started)
----------------------------------------
Hi Gene,
What about discussing scripture with someone who thinks that the original documents of scripture are the inspired, infallible word of God, that modern translations are authoritative to the extent they accurately transmit the original message and that while the Word of God remains eternally, our interpretations of it are often inaccurate, thereby allowing new information to lead us to a more accurate (though not perfect) understanding? ;D
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2006 20:05:57 GMT -5
Hi Rob --
The approach to scripture you describe is in the main consistent with my own, and on that basis I do enjoy discussion. However, one question I have: I'm not certain of the validity of the first premise: that the original documents were the inspired, infallible word of God. For example, could it be that some of what Paul wrote was just his own thought and opinion, not inspired of God, and actually more reflective of his time and culture than of the wisdom of God? Of course I realize that if that first premise is questionable, the rest of the system loses integrity.
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Post by ithascome on May 20, 2006 20:08:05 GMT -5
These goes back to the title of this thread... I am not sure. I believe the price has been paid.
Yes IllinoisGal you are right... "and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
"one of them " I do not think "puzzled" is saying he/she does not know God. he/she is just finding it hard to believe that God can have mercy and also can not believe (at this time) that he/she is chosen of God. I hope "puzeled" can answer Robs question.
"amazed" I see your point... do you agree that God knows who will hear his voice.
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Post by Just Looking on May 20, 2006 23:46:01 GMT -5
The choice has always been God's.
Have you studied the words choose, chose, and chosen in the Bible?
Ephesians 1:4 says, "According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world..."
2 Thessalonians 2:13 shows that "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation..."
Revelation 17:14 speaks of those who are with the Lamb as "...called, and chosen, and faithful."
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Post by reality on May 21, 2006 0:38:37 GMT -5
Appears we are on this world simply for this "God's" amusement.
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