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Post by heard truth on May 18, 2006 15:52:29 GMT -5
to speak truth.
What area are you claiming this about?
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Post by seriously on May 18, 2006 15:53:10 GMT -5
Its a fact is it?
How do you establish it as fact rather than opinion?
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Post by labels on May 18, 2006 15:55:14 GMT -5
"Cult" is a value label. Someone made up a definition for the word. Whether or not a group falls into the category depends on the definition being used, which was made by man's opinion. What is a cult to some isn't to others.
IMO, applying the "cult" label is a judgment or value call--not a "fact". It's not an exact science. I don't know why people like to use it--it's a loaded offensive word.
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Post by labelled on May 18, 2006 15:59:04 GMT -5
I agree.
The use of such a word, typically offensive to those within the group so described reveals more about the one using the word than the one to whom it might be addressed.
It means that the user of the word considers themselves superior, more informed, etc than the one they address the word to.
The effect of using the word is to offend, so its clear that the use of it is intended to offend.
The intention of offense means that the statement being made will not be well received.
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Post by a website on May 18, 2006 16:17:49 GMT -5
Prue or anyone else is free to have whatever website they want. Exes do so why not those who still go to meetings?
When I first read Prue's website I thought it was a joke. I do not see a lot of connection with it and much of what is in the 2x2s. If she is quoting from the Bible then she is showing where the Bible differers from her group.
The workers fear the exes website but exes do not fear those in meetings websites because we know we have the proof (Bible, facts etc) that what we say is truth. We know the truth about the workers church because we have been there. We have been enlightened and free from the control of the workers. We have Jesus as the truth and not the workers group. Jesus as the way and truth will still be here after the workers group has long died out because the truth of Jesus endures forever. The same way as Jesus followers were on the earth long before the workers group was started is the same way they will continue until He comes.
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Post by Its a cult on May 18, 2006 23:44:49 GMT -5
The use of such a word, typically offensive to those within the group so described reveals more about the one using the word than the one to whom it might be addressed.
It means that the user of the word considers themselves superior, more informed, etc than the one they address the word to.
Just keep telling your selves that. It doesn't mean that the user feels superior at all. All it means is that the user has ceased from allowing their mind to be perverted by a false system that practices nearly every known technique of cohersive persuasion known to man (did you like that better than the "C" word?) Call it what you will, but the 2x2s are a cult in the same mold as JWs, Mormons, SDAs, etc. Do yourselves a favor and google "mind control" if you dare - or are interested in the truth of your group.
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on May 19, 2006 0:10:05 GMT -5
I see nothing there which displays hatred for anyone who has not left 2x2ism. I view these commandments as you have written, that you believe that they are demanded by the workers and that the followers do as they say. I have to disgree and they do in fact show hatred towards those who still belong to the 2x2's. Since you have written them, you will disagree that they do in fact show hatred.
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on May 19, 2006 0:17:19 GMT -5
These points show nothing more than the author's experience with the 2x2's. I mean to say, this is the way the author conducted his life in the 2x2's, altho it wasnt required or demanded of him by anyone.
THE 10 PROFESSING COMMANDMENTS
1. Thou shalt have no ministry before the workers.
2. Thou shalt take the spoken words of the workers as the word of God.
3. Thou shalt separate thyself from the world by following the teachings and opinions of the workers.
4. Thou shalt separate thyself from Christians by following the teachings and opinions of the workers.
5. Thou shalt accept fault for any opinion of the workers that thou has taken as the word of God.
6. Thou shalt not gather in buildings for worship other than houses and certain structures owned by fellow believers.
7. Thou shalt hold to the workers' ministry whether you think it is a continuous chain from the days of Jesus or a formation from a certain spirit.
8. Thou shalt have no image of reverence except for images of workers.
9. Thou shalt hold to the exclusivity of the workers' ministry, and if this shall seem impossible, thou shalt perpetuate the delusion of their sole ordination by continuing to profess without voicing outright your rejection of the exclusivity of the workers' ministry.
10. Thou shalt go to meeting and be in the workers' book of life unless thou art deemed a threat to their exclusivity or their adoration from their followers or their power over their followers.
I am sorry for those who feel that these expectation were/are required of them, and their worship was/is mis-focused on the workers and not on Christ.
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Post by Rob O on May 19, 2006 0:21:13 GMT -5
This was also my experience. It was required of me. And I reject your implication that because you have not experienced it, it must only exist in the minds of those who claim to have experienced it.
I would agree that the workers do not seek worship of themselves. They do want their group to worship god, but mostly a god of their own (neo-Arian) design, rather than the God that is.
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on May 19, 2006 0:23:51 GMT -5
This was also my experience. It was required of me. And I reject your implication that because you have not experienced it, it must only exist in the minds of those who claim to have experienced it. If I must, I shall!
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Post by Rob O on May 19, 2006 0:27:32 GMT -5
Perhaps you could clarify your statement. It does not make sense at the moment.
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on May 19, 2006 0:34:09 GMT -5
Your experience is your experience.
I stated that it wasnt/isnt demanded of the workers, yet you perceived it to be so.
I cant say it wasnt/isnt your experience, I can say it was of your own design that you did. Why? Because many have had experiences far different and much of that which is shown in the Bible.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on May 19, 2006 0:36:56 GMT -5
I wrote them and I stand by them.
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Post by Rob O on May 19, 2006 0:37:29 GMT -5
Then you are wrong and demonstrating arrogance to pretend that because your experience (and those of others) has been different then mine must be "in my mind" or of my own design. The concept of "denial" comes to mind.
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on May 19, 2006 0:44:53 GMT -5
Then you are wrong and demonstrating arrogance to pretend that because your experience (and those of others) has been different then mine must be "in my mind" or of my own design. "I cant say it wasnt/isnt your experience"
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Post by Rob O on May 19, 2006 0:46:44 GMT -5
Yet here you are claiming that because it differs from your own and others you know, then mine must be of own design. Don't insult my intelligence. Try telling Walter his experience was of his own design.
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on May 19, 2006 0:54:42 GMT -5
Yet here you are claiming that because it differs from your own and others you know, then mine must be of own design. Don't insult my intelligence. Try telling Walter his experience was of his own design. You have taken personal insult to my posting, and I wasnt even posting with anyone in mind. Everyone has a different personality and different reaction to the same thing, so your experience is different than mine. I am on the same side of the fence as you, yet, I dont make it my life mission to assault those who still choose to conduct their life in the 2x2's. This is how we differ. However, I choose to bring fairness within the debate and argue the otherside of the argument (lack of a better word @ the moment). Don't insult my intelligence.This is a feeling that comes from within, not something I have brought on. Be good to yourself.
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on May 19, 2006 0:58:00 GMT -5
I wrote them and I stand by them. And do you feel better about things or yourself, now that you have vented them?
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Post by Rob O on May 19, 2006 1:02:59 GMT -5
Yet, here you are arguing that my experience was of my own design. That does not display fairness. It shows you are prepared to reject the facts (not feelings) of what I experienced.
Nor is your statement "I dont make it my life mission to assault those who still choose to conduct their life in the 2x2's. This is how we differ" based on fairness but rather on your perception. It implies that I (who differ from you) have a life mission to assault the lives of those in the 2x2's. You are not unbiased and you are not displaying fairness. You are displaying an apparent readiness to reject objective situations that others have experienced in order to create a global defense of a system to which it appears you do not even belong.
If you did not experience it then you have nothing to contribute to the other side of the argument.
In responding to the following, I am not prepared to make the ridiculous claim that everyone within the F&W's group has experienced this. As is clear from participation on this forum, the experience is not uniform but quite disparate. However, this was my experience and to claim it was of my own design is just sheer ignorance of the sociological dynamics of groups like this:
1. Thou shalt have no ministry before the workers.
I never heard a sermon or had a private chat with a friend or worker in which it was acknowledged that other ministries had any validity. Instead, it was widely acknowledged that all other ministries were invalid and only the workers were ministering according to scripture.
2. Thou shalt take the spoken words of the workers as the word of God.
Having a brother in the work for some years, I had the opportunity to speak with many workers. It was widely accepted that even if a worker got it wrong, they still should be obeyed because they were God's servants doing His work.
3. Thou shalt separate thyself from the world by following the teachings and opinions of the workers.
As above.
4. Thou shalt separate thyself from Christians by following the teachings and opinions of the workers.
As above. One of the final conversations I had with a worker whilst still attending meetings resulted in that worker's clear statement that there is no other way to salvation except through the F&W "way".
5. Thou shalt accept fault for any opinion of the workers that thou has taken as the word of God.
As per #2.
6. Thou shalt not gather in buildings for worship other than houses and certain structures owned by fellow believers.
The only exception being halls rented for mission meetings. Amazing how exceptions can be made and resultant absurdities ignored.
7. Thou shalt hold to the workers' ministry whether you think it is a continuous chain from the days of Jesus or a formation from a certain spirit.
As per #1.
8. Thou shalt have no image of reverence except for images of workers.
I don't know about this. But it was odd that pictures of workers always seemed to be displayed prominently in many homes.
9. Thou shalt hold to the exclusivity of the workers' ministry, and if this shall seem impossible, thou shalt perpetuate the delusion of their sole ordination by continuing to profess without voicing outright your rejection of the exclusivity of the workers' ministry.
As per #1.
10. Thou shalt go to meeting and be in the workers' book of life unless thou art deemed a threat to their exclusivity or their adoration from their followers or their power over their followers.
Can't fully agree but certainly the authority and power of the workers was never to be questioned.
This was my experience. It was not of my own design. This was what I was raised to believe and follow according to my parents and according to what I regularly heard preached by the workers.
To claim this displays hatred is just ludicrous.
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Post by Fred on May 19, 2006 4:42:53 GMT -5
And I write in support of your post Rob. Only I write from the inside of the fence..... the listed points are a fairly accurate summary of my experiences in 45 yrs of professing.
They also would be the experience of the vast majority of friends in the eastern states of Australia (my area of experience).
Some (quite a few) would repudiate many of the beliefs personally but would readily admit the existence of them.
I know of nowhere where contrary beliefs are promoted as group doctrine.
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Post by IllinoisGal on May 19, 2006 6:44:29 GMT -5
QUOTE:6. Thou shalt not gather in buildings for worship other than houses and certain structures owned by fellow believers.
My 2x2 friend went to church with me. It was in a church building for a regular service. They even took up an offering. ;D
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Post by Xer on May 19, 2006 7:25:55 GMT -5
Now out, but after nearly 40 years in, I'd say the quotes above are melodramatic to be least description, and OTT at best.
I'm afraid I agree, they display a level of hate for 2x2ers.
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Post by Rob O on May 19, 2006 7:49:37 GMT -5
Xer,
What part of the world are you from?
Main Entry: ha·tred 1 : HATE 2 : prejudiced hostility or animosity
Now who's being melodramatic?
If this was not your experience, good for you, but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the experience of others as melodramatic, over the top, or displaying hatred. If you think I, in stating this as my experience, am displaying any level of hatred, then all you are showing is a lack of open-mindedness that others could have seen far different things to you.
Ps. As with faith and Fred, I'm in Australia (east coast).
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faith
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by faith on May 19, 2006 7:52:29 GMT -5
I agree with you Fred. The points made are accurate in my experience too. I live in Western Australia
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Post by to Ill Gal on May 19, 2006 11:17:27 GMT -5
RE: My 2x2 friend went to church with me. It was in a church building for a regular service. They even took up an offering.
IG: I'm sure your friend didn't consider herself to be worshipping with you. She was VISITING--only. An observer. That's the 2x2 way.
Cherie
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Post by uker260702 on May 19, 2006 11:26:01 GMT -5
I`d say Rob`s comments and observations very much mirror my own experience in the 2x2 way, and I`m on the other side of the world.
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Post by Tall on May 19, 2006 11:30:36 GMT -5
I think the posts in this thread show an awful lack of appreciation of others experience.
From both sides we seem to have the argument that says
"What you say is your experience is not in accord with my experience, therfore your experience is invalid".
Every post states an opinion. The use of terms such as "melodramatic", "lack of openmindedness" etc etc all indicate to me a lack of acceptance of the experiences of others.
Its pretty clear to me that there's huge variety of experience, so if someone elses is quite different to yours, it doesn't make it any less valid.
Even within one area, there's variety.
Its also too far reaching (in my opinion) to state the ideas of others. Such statements as "The vast majority of " etc show an unwillingness to accept diversity that certainly exists.
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Post by ima nobody on May 19, 2006 13:44:50 GMT -5
my experience-USA-multiple states
ditto Rob O.'s post
no hate
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