|
Post by Kansas Newbie on Jun 13, 2006 10:37:57 GMT -5
Background: I am a 2x2 and have just recently "seen the light". I am kind of past the shock maybe, but still struggling with all this new information, especially the idea that the Truth may be the wrong way or at least not the only way. I have questions for any who would be so kind as to answer: How do you respond to "Truth is the only way"? Truth is God's one true way. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; Jesus is Truth and Truth is Jesus. From one generation to the next, the Holy Spirit rests with God's chosen few and in this generation, God's chosen few just so happen to reside in Truth. William Irvine was raised up to create a system, Truth, where God's chosen few could reside, so the Holy Spirit can dwell within them. Truth is a perfect way for an imperfect people and when you see something that is wrong, it is people that are wrong, not Truth. Thanks to all for your help!
|
|
|
Post by question on Jun 13, 2006 10:44:19 GMT -5
Many here feel that either Jesus lied about some of his statements about exclusitivity, works, the narrow way and only one door - or at least his disciples or later translators, did the lying for him. People here feel that the way is not narrow - so long as you have good intentions you are accepted to God. Even people who blow up other people often have good intentions in mind. God judges the heart, not the behavior.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2006 10:48:43 GMT -5
"William Irvine was raised up to create a system, Truth, where God's chosen few could reside, so the Holy Spirit can dwell within them."
Is this a kind of synopsis of what you've been taught, or how you have reconciled these ideas?
Karl
|
|
TryReadingYourBible
Guest
|
Post by TryReadingYourBible on Jun 13, 2006 10:56:25 GMT -5
A lot of us just read the bible. The whole plan of God was there, and the pattern of behavior was there, too.
|
|
|
Post by Kansas Newbie on Jun 13, 2006 11:03:25 GMT -5
"William Irvine was raised up to create a system, Truth, where God's chosen few could reside, so the Holy Spirit can dwell within them." Is this a kind of synopsis of what you've been taught, or how you have reconciled these ideas? Karl I was told this by the elder of our meeting (good family friend, addressing my struggle with this stuff).
|
|
|
Post by Kansas Newbie on Jun 13, 2006 11:08:26 GMT -5
A lot of us just read the bible. The whole plan of God was there, and the pattern of behavior was there, too. Yeah but right now I'm kind of at odds with what I read in the bible because for the last 31 years, it has been used to mislead me. I'm reading and praying more now than ever in my life but I still get down with the way the bible doesn't seem to agree with itself. There seems to be a lot of people here with experience so I thought I'd get some of yours opinions.
|
|
|
Post by QuestionForKansas on Jun 13, 2006 11:10:04 GMT -5
Kansas. You are asking venal, mocking and deceitful people here questions about Truth? Really, what sort of answer do you expect to get?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2006 11:14:43 GMT -5
Well, then I guess that he would be passing on something patently unbiblical.
If you read through Romans 13-15, look at what Paul is getting at. Good conduct, love, etc., but freedom, especially ch14- 15:6. He is speaking against the idea of a "system", and instead promotes liberty (not license), because of Christ.
God;s chosen, few or many, live in the world and are the Salt, the Light, and the City on a Hill. Living in seclusion would hardly allow any of these qualities to manifest.
Wheat and tares, sheep and goats, Jesus is always talking of His own as being intermingled with those who do not belong to Him, salvation wise.
How do you feel about what your elder, whose character and good motives I am not doubting, said?
Karl
|
|
|
Post by Kansas Newbie on Jun 13, 2006 11:17:03 GMT -5
Kansas. You are asking venal, mocking and deceitful people here questions about Truth? Really, what sort of answer do you expect to get? Some chaff, some weeds, a thistle here and there, a little dirt, a few rocks, and some kernels of wheat. I'll keep the wheat.
|
|
|
Post by HIDDEN on Jun 13, 2006 11:24:33 GMT -5
LACPASTOR. JESUS SPOKE OF A CITY ON A HILL, MEANING THAT THE STANDARD OF GOD'S PEOPLE CANNOT BE DENIED AND AN INSPIRATION TO WHOEVER WAS SEEKING TO FIND ONE. HOWEVER, JESUS AND HIS CHURCH DID NOT LIVE IN "SECLUSION" AS MUCH AS THE WORLD DID NOT WANT TO KNOW THESE PEOPLE. AND GOD HIMSELF HID THESE THING FROM THOSE WHO WERE NOT MOVED, AS THE BIBLE PLENTIFULLY TELLS US.
|
|
|
Post by Kansas Newbie on Jun 13, 2006 11:27:11 GMT -5
Well, then I guess that he would be passing on something patently unbiblical. If you read through Romans 13-15, look at what Paul is getting at. Good conduct, love, etc., but freedom, especially ch14- 15:6. He is speaking against the idea of a "system", and instead promotes liberty (not license), because of Christ. God;s chosen, few or many, live in the world and are the Salt, the Light, and the City on a Hill. Living in seclusion would hardly allow any of these qualities to manifest. Wheat and tares, sheep and goats, Jesus is always talking of His own as being intermingled with those who do not belong to Him, salvation wise. How do you feel about what your elder, whose character and good motives I am not doubting, said? Karl I don't know what to think of him. I've trusted him all life long and so have my folks. I just feel kinda betrayed in a way but it's hard to go from complete trust to anything else. I guess that may be why the only way issue is bothering me so much because I have always really trusted him.
|
|
|
Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 13, 2006 11:27:12 GMT -5
This is usually not something one can process overnight, so take your time and don’t rush yourself… By chipping away at it using sound logic, biblical scripture, and common sense… First you must list out the reasons people think the fellowship is the only way… Here are a few… Workers are homeless and go out in pairs Meetings are in the homes Worldly churches meet in buildings Worldly pastors are paid And before 1897 where did these chosen people reside? Then how come the system William Irvine started looks so much different then the fellowship we know today? Back when he started it there were no meetings in the homes and everyone was to be a worker… Yet this is not the system we see today in the friends and workers fellowship. Ask to define what truth is… and then once you have their definition of “the truth” then you can chip away at their illogical reasoning…
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2006 11:29:12 GMT -5
LACPASTOR. JESUS SPOKE OF A CITY ON A HILL, MEANING THAT THE STANDARD OF GOD'S PEOPLE CANNOT BE DENIED AND AN INSPIRATION TO WHOEVER WAS SEEKING TO FIND ONE. HOWEVER, JESUS AND HIS CHURCH DID NOT LIVE IN "SECLUSION" AS MUCH AS THE WORLD DID NOT WANT TO KNOW THESE PEOPLE. AND GOD HIMSELF HID THESE THING FROM THOSE WHO WERE NOT MOVED, AS THE BIBLE PLENTIFULLY TELLS US. Your caps lock is stuck. Karl
|
|
|
Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 13, 2006 11:29:29 GMT -5
Kansas. You are asking venal, mocking and deceitful people here questions about Truth? Really, what sort of answer do you expect to get? In other words - you are asking children of the dark to speak about the light. How can children of the dark know anything about the light? See kansas, we are viewed as bitter and unwilling enemies of the truth...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2006 11:35:03 GMT -5
Well, then I guess that he would be passing on something patently unbiblical. If you read through Romans 13-15, look at what Paul is getting at. Good conduct, love, etc., but freedom, especially ch14- 15:6. He is speaking against the idea of a "system", and instead promotes liberty (not license), because of Christ. God;s chosen, few or many, live in the world and are the Salt, the Light, and the City on a Hill. Living in seclusion would hardly allow any of these qualities to manifest. Wheat and tares, sheep and goats, Jesus is always talking of His own as being intermingled with those who do not belong to Him, salvation wise. How do you feel about what your elder, whose character and good motives I am not doubting, said? Karl I don't know what to think of him. I've trusted him all life long and so have my folks. I just feel kinda betrayed in a way but it's hard to go from complete trust to anything else. I guess that may be why the only way issue is bothering me so much because I have always really trusted him. It is entirely possible for him to be a well meaning man, but that doesn't preclude him being wrong in understanding these things. I doubt that his motive is anything but to care for you. At some point, you will have to make some hard decisions- do the work! Get as educated as you can, and pray for wisdom as you move through this stuff. Ask questions, listen to everything, and the sort out the wheat- the Bible makes a great measure for telling truth from anything else as far as you relationship to God goes! If you would like to discuss this in any detail, I'd be glad to continue on the board, or if you get tired of all of the side tracking and rabbit trails that are coming you can email me here lacpastor@gmail.com You can stay anonymous- and I'll be glad to keep talking in either case! Karl
|
|
|
Post by Bert on Jun 13, 2006 11:37:00 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 13, 2006 11:44:42 GMT -5
No, it does not address many of the issues they've raised here... Bert your website is a joke... A total joke... Here is the link that should go along with any posting of your website's URL... www.angelfire.com/ok3/apologia/vot.html
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jun 13, 2006 12:51:21 GMT -5
Kansas: Only-wayism" is one of the first items that a 2x2 must reconcile when they discover the founder is a man; the founding about 100 years ago; and therefore the 2x2 way is man-made. I remember asking Harry Brownlee, "How can this way in which you preach be God's only way, when it was started by a man? Why do YOU think it's God's ONLY way?" He could only give me his personal experiences, feelings, opinions-- bcs there was nothing in the scripture about an only way that didn't refer to Jesus. I was shocked that someone (workers) would give their whole LIFE in a hard ministry without having more proof than "experiences"! Anyway, here are some details I have collected regarding how WmI's group came to view themselves as God's only way on earth. They didn't always think this, you know. At first they professed and continued in their current church, or chose a church to assemble with. There were no home church meetings. After awhile they began to separate themselves and to set up the home churches and to rebaptize (not recognize their baptisms in other churches). You may be able to better formulate an answer to those who talk to you about the only way concept/belief after you've read this. Go to Chapter 7 at: home.earthlink.net/%7Etruth333/index-WmIBook.htmlPlease give us more details about yourself. We're interested, and we care. Cherie
|
|
|
Post by sojourner on Jun 13, 2006 13:33:11 GMT -5
Welcome Kansas Newbie! We are at our one year anniversary of leaving meeting. The year has not been without struggle but there definitely has been joy! We have stepped out of what we had known for 23 years. It is helpful to separate Jesus is the way from a religious belief system (attending meeting is the way). The scripture is not talking about a specific belief system. The group known as 2 x 2's, f & w-friends and workers.....and other terms-we use those as identifiers not meaning to offend. When I realized that the way in the Bible is NOT talking about the f & w way it was like a door opening to new thoughts. Your questions about "Truth the only way"? That is a mixed bag. If you are talking about the meetings-no. If you are talking about Jesus-yes. Jesus is the only way and the f & W do not hold a monopoly on salvation. People debate this up and down-you have to prove it to yourself. Read the scriptures and decide. In my own studies, I do not see where the workers have the power to grant salvation nor take it away or only meeting goers saved. William Irvine-all religious systems have a man or men behind their inception. 2 x 2's are no different-cut it anyway you want-William Irvine is the founder. There is a lot research, valid, with proofs, that indeed William did start this way. We had been told that there is a direct line back to Jesus. That is not true. There are several web sites that are helpful in learning about the 2 x 2 belief system. People are imperfect. Plain and simple-we all are sinners and have fallen short. We all need the blood of Jesus. Some on this board will honestly try to answer your questions. Others, as you have already seen, will try to snipe, bash and derail conversation. We have found that registered users on this board are usually glad to answer questions when you pm them (private message). Do look at the websites. 2x2church.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=otherresources&action=display&thread=1137880415Feel free to message us privately. Do not become discouraged. There are some books that are good to read-but start with the websites. You will notice a huge difference between the site Bert listed and the sites by Cherie, Ilylo and the link provided by Bryanfromalaska. I like the University of Virginia-Religious Movements site-it is written and maintained by a university-not affiliated with any one pro or con-just the facts. Kathy G.
|
|
|
Post by TO BRY on Jun 13, 2006 16:44:39 GMT -5
No, it does not address many of the issues they've raised here... Bert your website is a joke... A total joke... Here is the link that should go along with any posting of your website's URL... www.angelfire.com/ok3/apologia/vot.htmlbry thats a nice way of encouraging those in the fellowship to dicuss these things with you Kansas newbie take notice of attitude, and truth will shine forth
|
|
|
Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 13, 2006 16:53:07 GMT -5
bry thats a nice way of encouraging those in the fellowship to dicuss these things with you So you look down on my for warning others about a website? So I have a bad attatude because I warn others about a website?
|
|
|
Post by a believer on Jun 13, 2006 18:09:17 GMT -5
Background: I am a 2x2 and have just recently "seen the light". I am kind of past the shock maybe, but still struggling with all this new information, especially the idea that the Truth may be the wrong way or at least not the only way. I have questions for any who would be so kind as to answer: How do you respond to "Truth is the only way"? Truth is God's one true way. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; Jesus is Truth and Truth is Jesus. From one generation to the next, the Holy Spirit rests with God's chosen few and in this generation, God's chosen few just so happen to reside in Truth. William Irvine was raised up to create a system, Truth, where God's chosen few could reside, so the Holy Spirit can dwell within them. Truth is a perfect way for an imperfect people and when you see something that is wrong, it is people that are wrong, not Truth. Thanks to all for your help! Kansas, why would God raise up William Irvine to create a system? Does he mean like a last days prophet? William Irvine was put out of meetings by the workers that joined him because they believe he had gone 'mad' and was preaching false teachings which makes him a false prophet. Why would God raise up William Irvine when he raised up Jesus. Jesus is God's truth and Jesus came to die on the Cross for you and me 2000 years ago. His truth, (Jesus) did not die out, Christianity was alive and well since Jesus day. He didn't need a man to create a system, He sent Jesus. Men have been creating systems ever since Jesus day but the truth is that God's truth is Jesus not a system or group. Truth is a perfect way you say, with imperfect people. Truth is a not a group of people. Truth is Jesus. Don't look to man for the truth, look only to Jesus. Your elder is no doubt an honest man and he is trying to answer your questions from what he believes is truth. My mind goes back to when I first heard these things before the internet was here and I was a mess. 20 years later and I am so glad I saw the truth about the truth. I saw Jesus, not a way, but Jesus the way, the Truth, the life... Professing people on here would not like you to listen to those who have left, and will try to discredit us, but the truth is the truth. Read and study the Bible and God will guide you to his truth. Not a church or group, although it is good to meet together, but he will reveal to you his truth. Your worker was right when he said God raised up William Irvine to create a system, - a man made system, no different to any other system but which is necesary for us to gather together for fellowship and teaching but not to claim that they are God's truth, because Jesus alone is God's truth. Focus on men (a group) rather than Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by IllinoisGal on Jun 13, 2006 19:07:33 GMT -5
Kansas. You are asking venal, mocking and deceitful people here questions about Truth? Really, what sort of answer do you expect to get? We arent all MOCKING nor DECEITFUL people.
|
|
|
Post by IllinoisGal on Jun 13, 2006 19:11:15 GMT -5
I don't know what to think of him. I've trusted him all life long and so have my folks. I just feel kinda betrayed in a way but it's hard to go from complete trust to anything else. I guess that may be why the only way issue is bothering me so much because I have always really trusted him.[/quote]
From what I have saw from the outside looking in is the problem lies very deeply in placing more trust in a man than God. I think people should look up what the Preacher is telling them and study the bible for themselves along with listening to the sermons that are preached
|
|
|
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jun 13, 2006 19:24:01 GMT -5
Since moving back to a state that is very strict and rarely has any outside interest, I have noticed so much more "only way" thinking. When outsiders stop attending gospel meeting it is because "they were unwilling for God's only way". When I look at it more closely I see it as they were unwilling for the list of rules that some of the people here practically bombarded them with and the hyprocritical talk.
I dont necessarily think this way is wrong, but I don't think it's the only. The reason I write "necessarily" is because there are areas were the "truth" has gotten so out of context, so out of focus that it's in no way shape or form God's way at all. However, is some areas and in some meetings, the honesty and love is still intact.. and in line with God intended when he formed fellowship.
I suggest that all professing people read the book, A purpose driven life. I found it very helpful in explaining a lot of things I had questions about.
|
|
|
Post by just as a thought on Jun 13, 2006 19:44:26 GMT -5
The "narrow way...which few shall find" sounds pretty elitist to me. Perhaps, the 2x2 way is "the perfect way"...which unfortunately has had both workers & followers who by their poor example have led many astray. A handful of bad workers, and a smattering of the friends, who are dysfunctional people, may possibly give others the impression that the Way is corrupt or imperfect. Those who are prone to fall for "worldly" ways, may use the faults of professing people as an excuse to find more liberal churches, in which "worldly" life-styles are not prohibited. Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jun 13, 2006 19:53:18 GMT -5
My mom often brings up that verse when I say that I dont think we're the only ones.
I believe in the Individual, not in the group as a whole. God offers us each, individually, salvation. (Bare with me, this is probably hard to understand since I'm not doing a good job of communicating my thoughts). We gather in groups to have fellowship, to exhort, encourage, support, and, yes, even sometimes offer a little direction when we get out of line.
In the end, you wont get Salvation by telling God, "Hey, I belonged to [that Christian group]! They seemed pretty right!" We each have to be right with God within. We each need a personal relationship with God. If we are honestly seeking that personal relationship, I believe we'll be guided to the group we need to be with (whether it be a certain place within the 2x2s, as it has been with me, or somewhere else).
|
|
|
Post by Rob O on Jun 13, 2006 20:07:38 GMT -5
"Just a thought" wrote:
"Perhaps, the 2x2 way is "the perfect way"...which unfortunately has had both workers & followers who by their poor example have led many astray. A handful of bad workers, and a smattering of the friends, who are dysfunctional people, may possibly give others the impression that the Way is corrupt or imperfect. Those who are prone to fall for "worldly" ways, may use the faults of professing people as an excuse to find more liberal churches, in which "worldly" life-styles are not prohibited. Just a thought."
No. The 2x2 way is not the perfect way. The Catholic way is not the perfect way. The Baptist way is not the perfect way.
Jesus alone is the perfect way. He is the way, the truth and the life.
Any attempt to put any group on a par with Jesus is doomed.
|
|