"Abominations"

[Deleted]

It is interesting to read what was an abomination to God in the days of the Old Testament. Someone here has expressed another is an abomination. According to the scripture, "... all that do unrighteously, [are] an abomination unto the LORD thy God."

Eating pork, catfish, shrimp, calamari, and crab among other things was cause to be an abomination unto God. Has God not given some over to such things while still making provision for them that they need not live by the law of such abominations? He has for me.

Are there indeed big and little abominations before God? Not according to scriptures, that I have been able to find, anyway. If someone wants to correct me on this, I'm eager to learn.

How many "Christian" people truly know and believe that any form of "usury" (return of money on use of their money) makes them equal to those practicing any other abomination, and equally worthy of death? (See Ezek. 18:13) If the one given over to any other "abomination" is to be condemned even unto death, then anyone who takes any form of increase among other things is to be so condemned also, including me.

Each of us must answer for our own conscience, yes? But what if God has given someone over to something that was once an abomination to Him? Would not their conscience be clean? I feel no stain from eating pork, catfish, shellfish, etc. Nor from putting economic assets to work. (If I had any left!) My conscience is not troubled in the least by these things I do (or would do.) Why? Because, indeed, my God has given me over to such things.

Gene, since you were the object of another's condemnation, I feel compelled to say to you: (for me anyway) integrity is not found in hetero nor homo-sexuality. For me, it IS found in love and purity though remission of sin. Each one of us have enough sin of our own to prove God's grace is sufficient and that where sin abounds, grace much more abounds.

This brought me to ponder: what is "remission of sin," anyway? For me, it is that sin which is covered by "grace." A "grace" which has been received by my belief in The God who made me, gave me over to any such thing, and did so by His reason that I could be subject to an eagerly anticipated expectation of spiritual life for all eternity, with the purging of fleshly desires by passing through death, or translation, if I should be so allowed.

As to our own possible "reward," it is through repenting of sins revealed to us, for ourselves individually, and putting them away. That is a guaranteed promise for mercy. "Reward" results in my opinion from the efforts anyone makes in helping others, whether by word or deed.

For me, "grace" covers what does not fall under the promise of "mercy," as I receive those things which I know I simply do not deserve. If something were deserved, would it not be justice, rather than grace or mercy? Who can ever deserve either grace or mercy?

Fleshly and profane aspects of my present life will never pass through the fire. It is for this reason that I desire precious things which cannot be consumed in passing from this life to the next, but is fruit grown by the workings of the Holy Spirit.

Kind regards,

Dennis J.

[liz]

Dennis:

Thanks for you excellent post!

I'm going to veer to one side a bit (but I'm certain we are 'on the same page')..... I have been bothered for ages by what my husband and I call 'degrees of sin'. Not only is it found amongst the 2x2 friends but in Christianity in general (likely other religions, as well.)

Within the context of Christianity, I've always maintained that a sin is a sin whether it's telling a white lie to weasel out of a sticky situation or whether it's murder committed against another.

To many of my 2x2 acquaintances, speeding down the freeway to get to a gospel meeting on time would not be considered a sin (even though it's breaking the law). Gossiping about another is not considered a sin. (I've had this conversation with two separate 2x2 friends). Committing adultery, homosexuality, abortion, stealing, tax evasion, etc. would all be considered sins.

I maintain that in the eyes of God, a sin is a sin is a sin, all of which create the same consequence and need to be dealt with in an equal manner.

Liz

[Deleted]

Thank you, liz. Wishfully my post glorified God rather than man.

Yes, I agree with you. Yet, the OT scriptures and law did have levels of sin and punishments. It was to govern a people prone to some pretty corrupt and violent behavior and beliefs. As such law, it was and did, establish levels of sins, from those minor to those worthy of death.

That law, according to the Holy Bible was fulfilled in the Being, Jesus Christ. The Kingdom was NOT restored unto Israel at that time, and thus no ordinances (that I can discover anyway) were established to govern unrighteous human behavior within the confines of Judeah other than those previously imposed upon them from without.

Governing human law DOES have degrees of offenses. When, however, sin occurs (from all that I have ever found in the bible anyway) before God, even the "smallest" sins can have eternal consequences when the one committing them is trusting in human strength, rather than The Lord GOD. According to Jesus' teaching:

...that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. [Luke 12:47-48]

However, it would seem to me that the key involved in opening the meaning of this is the concept of knowing and not knowing, rather than big and little sins. I recognize there are those who rage at anyone who simply accepts the scriptures. For me, along with accepting them is the need for much asking, seeking, and knocking to understand them.

Such understanding, while written on the fleshly tables of a human's "heart," rather than in stone, also varies according to each individual's diligence in seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was promised as the one coming who would teach not of himself, but of Jesus Christ. And we know He also produces the Fruit of the Holy Spirit in those who believe in Him, The Lord, and The Father as One God.

This is not to say that people cannot achieve by human effort achieve to various degrees those individual ingredients found in the Fruit of the Holy Spirit. They can. However, That whole Fruit of the Holy Spirit becomes such when it IS produced by the Holy Spirit. Being whole and complete, that Fruit is sufficient to prove His presence working in mankind.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express the thoughts in my mind to a greater degree.

Warmest regards,

Dennis J.

[IllinoisGal]

Dennis. You are certainly correct. many things are an abomination to God. Most of them are found in the OT. There are 69 verses speaking of many different abomination in the bible.

Thought I would give the dictionary definition of the word.

a·bom·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-bm-nshn)
n.
Abhorrence; disgust.
A cause of abhorrence or disgust

1: a person who is loathsome or disgusting 2: hate coupled with disgust [syn: abhorrence, detestation, execration, loathing, odium] 3: an action that is vicious or vile; an action that arouses disgust or abhorence; "his treatment of the children is an abomination"

Sin is Sin in the eyes of God with no one having Gods approval on any of it whether that be lying(btw. Is an OT abomination according to the bible) , over eating, breaking the speed limit <<<---( is that a sin) whatever it may be.

There were degrees of severity with sin in the OT with some being punishable by death. Im glad we now live in a new dispensation and no longer go through a priest but can directly go to God for ourselves.

p.s. Dennis..If ya meant in your post "Someone" was condeming, I suppose you were talking about me because I had used the word abomination, yet isnt that what the bible uses as the word to describe some things?

[Gene]

illinoisgal said:

Dennie. You are certainly correct. many things are an abomination to God. Most of them are found in the OT. There are 69 verses speaking of abomination in the bible.

Thought I woua·bom·i·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-bm-nshn)
n.
Abhorrence; disgust.
A cause of abhorrence or disgust

1: a person who is loathsome or disgusting 2: hate coupled with disgust [syn: abhorrence, detestation, execration, loathing, odium] 3: an action that is vicious or vile; an action that arouses disgust or abhorence; "his treatment of the children is an abomination"

Illinois Gal, i think part of your post got deleted -- could you review and modify if warranted?
Thanks
gn

[Deleted]

p.s. Dennis..If ya meant in your post "Someone" was condeming, I suppose you were talking about me because I had used the word abomination, yet isnt that what the bible uses as the word to describe some things?

Illinois Gal,

No, I had nobody in mind, just that someone WAS being condemned for their "abomination" without recognition that each one of us have been given over to some sort of abomination in our lives. Sin is/was/and will be an abomination before God. Who's sin is greater is not the issue. One sin causes one person to want to "hurl" in his failing to recognize his sins may cause another to want to "hurl."

When does anyone suppose eating pork no longer was an abomination before God? Or the biblical definition of usury? The scripture is clear that all who are given over to any abomination are worthy of death. Why do any of us who believe in the Holy Bible and God's perfect righteousness think we are not worthy of death in our own sinful abominations, but another who also believes in the Holy Bible and God's perfect righteousness might be worthy of death because of their sinful abominations?

The grace of a righteous God is never deserved. Nor is mercy. If they were deserved, they both would be known as justice, not grace and mercy. Someone once said that a righteous human is someone who has successfully hidden all their sins.

The truly safe place for anyone to hide their sins is in Christ. When those men brought that woman "taken" in the very act to Him it is recorded that:

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Surely the same concept applies in such things today.

Kind regards,

Dennis

[party on]

Alright!! Long live hedonism!! Just be sure to thank God and praise Jesus while your live your life of debauchery and lasciviousness, and then everything will be cool! Far out, man, pass me another [God-blessed and God-provided] doobie and let's Smoke a Fat One for Jesus!! ;D

[Deleted]

What would be the "abomination of desolation"?

[IllinoisGal]

zach said:

What would be the "abomination of desolation"?

I think thats just out and out disrespect and not very wise to say smoke a fat one for Jesus.

[rude]

I agree with IllinoisGal!! disrespectful!

[Deleted]

The rude and vulgar one who apparently is more concerned with another's sin than his/her own obviously has missed my points entirely: that before one tries to take a MOTE out of another's eye, they MUST remove the BEAM first from their own. And yes, I do believe God's grace is sufficient for everyone's thorn in the flesh. At the same time, I also believe what Paul is recorded as writing here:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Each believer IS to look to themselves and their own hidden sins before saying/doing anything to condemn another's, or being sarcastically ridiculous about such things.

dj

[Peter]

"That which thou must condemnest, do so with a just heart. Do not the startled quail likewise condemn their disturber with their instantaneous discharge . "

Gene Nelson - 1999 - To an Iowan ranch-hand about to clean himself of saddle oil.

[as i c it]

God has made all men alike. (With the same human emotions in all) And foolish--and sinful--in all our folly and conceits...
The only difference might be...where all our folly, sin, and conceit shows up (in us)....

Which leads me to wonder something:

Since we are instructed to remove the beam out of our own eye first--that would leave most of us silent...unable to speak anything against another...ever...wouldn't it??? Which ties in to us being told not to judge.
But, to stay silent...to not judge...can also be wrong.

Which leads me to conclude: that while we all may be "right"...we can also be very "wrong"..unless "motivated" by the Holy Spirit: and done with the right motive.

I look at what is taking place today (and while some may think the workers and believers are on opposite sides....I'm beginning to think...it's all the same side...the two "working together"...as God wills..

I mean, in the end, isn't everything as "God wills" when it comes to His church???