Difference by Region

[Gospel believer]

but what difference does it make? is ones salvation dependent on knowing?

Salvation is dependent on the true Gospel being proclaimed by the messengers and the hearers believing it. In my experience this doesn't happen in 2X2 missions/meetings. What is proclaimed there is another Gospel, one that dilutes God's grace, changes and adds to the conditions for salvation, glorifies a Jesus who is denied as God the Son and forgets that it's by Christ's death and righteousness that we are saved. There are many more errors but that is just a summary.

So all these other differences are irrelevant. None of them has anything to do with salvation but are a product of lost individuals.

[as i c it]

accolades,

When you take 100 years of "wrong doings" (as found on the net): and lump all the workers into "one nameless, faceless group": (like you would if you were to talk about "the government") you end up with a wrong picture of "them".

But if you actually look at "the workers" (with names and faces): you realize...hey..."they" aren't the ones (and it isn't this group/generation--or person) who did....whatever.

In the above post: I didn't mean to infer that as workers they didn't deserve respect and appreciation. They are still people.

[as u c it]

"100 years of "wrong doings" (as found on the net)"


Being found on the net does not give credibility.

There are several websites that portray a heavily biassed picture at best, and just straight lies at worst.

[Deleted]

I can agree that things posted on the net need to be subjected to the same kind of credibility checks as any other sources of information. Lists like this are often subject to very rigourous credibility critisism --- quite unlike the propaganda like the indoctrinating systems of the 2x2 cult. At institutional conventions, so called 'gospel meetings' etc, questioning is not allowed at all, and it is always condemned as the mark of a 'bad spirit'.

The denial of the right to question is hardly a sign of credibility!!!!!!!!!! -- it is the sign of a cult!

[generalisimo]

"...questioning is not allowed at all, and it is always condemned as the mark of a 'bad spirit'.
"

Such a broad generalisation its not worth writing. Its certainly not widely true in my experience.

[Zorro]

"...questioning is not allowed at all, and it is always condemned as the mark of a 'bad spirit'.
"

Such a broad generalisation its not worth writing. Its certainly not widely true in my experience.

In my experience, I wouldn't say that "questioning" isn't allowed....but "disagreeing" certainly isn't.

[Deleted]

zorro said:

"...questioning is not allowed at all, and it is always condemned as the mark of a 'bad spirit'.
"

Such a broad generalisation its not worth writing. Its certainly not widely true in my experience.

In my experience, I wouldn't say that "questioning" isn't allowed....but "disagreeing" certainly isn't.

Questioning the credibility of what is said by workers is always regarded as a 'bad and bitter spirit'

[Zorro]

Questioning the credibility of what is said by workers is always regarded as a 'bad and bitter spirit'

Agreed. I used a double negative, so maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been. What I meant to say is that just asking questions typically doesn't cause any problems, if you accept the explanations given. But disagreeing is a different story. I've found the workers to be very defensive, and from what I've been told regarding worker's comments after conversations I had with them, they do tend to take disagreement as a personal attack on their integrity. I do know one worker who is a notable exception - you know who you are

[exA]

questioner said:

"Questioning the credibility of what is said by workers is always regarded as a 'bad and bitter spirit'"

This is just not true.
The word "always" allows for no exceptions.

there are hundreds of exceptions.

Its not even a good generalisation, except perhaps for some geographically specific areas.

could you give an example of an exception?

[Zorro]

"Questioning the credibility of what is said by workers is always regarded as a 'bad and bitter spirit'"

This is just not true.
The word "always" allows for no exceptions.

there are hundreds of exceptions.

Its not even a good generalisation, except perhaps for some geographically specific areas.

Unless you've actually personally disagreed with a worker on an issue of substance, I will respectfully suggest that you know not of which you speak. I have discussed in depth with workers, including overseers, the issues of Christ's deity, salvation by grace, judgement of outsiders, exclusivity, etc and disagreed on all points.....and I know what has been said about me in the aftermath. "Bitter and bad spirit" would actually be quaint compared to some of what has been said about me. Disagreement about whether a child should go out for chorus is an entirely different conversation than discussing doctrine.

[ex-teenager]

edgarmassey said:

zorro said:

"...questioning is not allowed at all, and it is always condemned as the mark of a 'bad spirit'.
"

Such a broad generalisation its not worth writing. Its certainly not widely true in my experience.

In my experience, I wouldn't say that "questioning" isn't allowed....but "disagreeing" certainly isn't.

Questioning the credibility of what is said by workers is always regarded as a 'bad and bitter spirit'

We have been encouraged to ask questions.

[Zorro]

We have been encouraged to ask questions.

Just don't disagree with the answers and you'll be fine

[as i c it]

My "new word" for the moment is "awareness".

The workers are to be commended for teaching us to take salvation seriously: and to be honest (and sincere) in our relationship with God. We have been taught to love: and to "worship in spirit and truth".

When you become "aware" of something doctrinal: or where areas of generalizations--or whatever--are no longer "true" or "truths" for you...then...your peace vanishes....and you find that while you are still able to "worship in spirit"...the "truth" part is gone.

Then: what can you do??? Two very significant individuals in my life were able to "cut through the garbage" and see "reality--and truth" (long before I could see). I needed them in my life...to remove "the garbage". So "true reality"...new "awareness" could take place.

What I sometimes wonder is "Why" Why--has all this "trouble" entered our faith? The "answer" (for me) is that God is...getting rid of the garbage SO that we CAN move forward: and into a "new awareness". Otherwise---"Why--is all this "awareness" taking place???" And "Why" have all these "troubles" taken place--as they have--over all that they have???

I hate to say this: but...like it or not, WI belongs in our history--and as part of our consciousness. The church is God's. God started this church. The Holy Spirit is present. And--attempts by man (to keep WI out) have failed. To put him back into the picture...does change things...but...even by trying to keep him out...we're losing believers...because of a "new awareness"--of truth--according to the scriptures--which is "forcing them to leave"...IF they're to have an honest relationship with God...

"Contending for the faith": and the truth--according to scriptures--can't be wrong...not when we have the Holy Spirit in our faith: and God's in control of His church...and everything seems to be "pushing us" (where we might not want to go...)

"Awareness"--at different levels--is causing (IMO) the trouble present today. No one can "agree to the truth" of anything--unless they can see-for themselves--that it is true.
So you end up with: both sides "contending for the faith--honestly: and according to: the truth that THEY see". Some are...maybe...just ahead of the others.

I know the Holy Spirit is present in our church. And know...we're in the midst of some kind of a change. We...may resist...and may see what's taking place as "bad"--but--it's God church--and He always wills "good"...I'm confident that "good" will be the end product of it all.

[and]

zorro said:

We have been encouraged to ask questions.

Just don't disagree with the answers and you'll be fine

and that does show that you have a "Bitter and bad spirit"

[as i c it]

and,
I don't see any "bitter and bad spirit" in Zorro's response...
I see a response...with a sense of "humor"...which still makes his point....

[accolades]

as said:

accolades,

When you take 100 years of "wrong doings" (as found on the net): and lump all the workers into "one nameless, faceless group": (like you would if you were to talk about "the government") you end up with a wrong picture of "them".

But if you actually look at "the workers" (with names and faces): you realize...hey..."they" aren't the ones (and it isn't this group/generation--or person) who did....whatever.

In the above post: I didn't mean to infer that as workers they didn't deserve respect and appreciation. They are still people.

I'm not talking about 100 years ago. I'm talking about the things that go on here and now. There have been crimes committed by professing people-against other professing people. These crimes have not been handled according to scripture nor according to the law of the land.

Have you read "Reflections" or "Reflected Truth"? You'll read experience after experience after experience of people that I (and probably you) know, or have heard of, or know their niece or some other relative. These did not happen 100 years ago and they were handled (or not handled) by workers we know and live today.

The workers are people, fallible like all humans. Some of the crimes were committed and passed down to the next set of workers-did they handle it and make responsible decisions, or did they look away, let it slide? None of us have perfect wisdom. None have perfect lives. I'm not casting stones. I'm calling a spade a spade as I see it.

As poster in reply #28 says..........and I quote.

"Salvation is dependent on the true Gospel being proclaimed by the messengers and the hearers believing it. In my experience this doesn't happen in 2X2 missions/meetings. What is proclaimed there is another Gospel, one that dilutes God's grace, changes and adds to the conditions for salvation, glorifies a Jesus who is denied as God the Son and forgets that it's by Christ's death and righteousness that we are saved. There are many more errors but that is just a summary. "

I didn't write that, but completely agree.
To each their own opinion.
You can give praise and accolades to the workers.
I will treat them as I treat my neighbors.


(I think your little disclaimer is cute
"100 years of "wrong doings" (as found on the net)"
read those books mentioned above)

[as i c it]

accolades,

No, I haven't read the books you mentioned. "Crimes" like in ...crimes??? (against the law kind???) were committed??? (And by people I know??? and you too??? Hmmm...interesting)
Who did you say you were, again??

As to giving credit where credit is due:
Today you may not believe/accept all the doctrines that we were taught...but...we were taught to take salvation seriously: to read our Bible: and to pray: and that God was to be obeyed: and that we were making choices for eternity...etc....which, regardless of where we may be, or go to worship, are...good teachings....valuable lessons...

Seems to me that if we're going to give them "credit" for the bad that they do (or did), they also deserve credit for the good that they've done (and are doing) too...

[of]

as said:

and,
I don't see any "bitter and bad spirit" in Zorro's response...
I see a response...with a sense of "humor"...which still makes his point....

of course you don't i wish there was a face for asleep ;D

when one says, [Just don't disagree with the answers and you'll be fine ] it shows a bad spirit it is as if he is saying all their answers are wrong but don't dare to disagree.

I would say on the majority that there answers are right

[as i c it]

of (are you also "and"??)
Do you have a "bitter and bad spirit?" Cause I see the same "spirit" in you (and your response) in the first line, as what I saw in Zorro's response. ( And now, you must excuse me...
(Yawn....z .zz..zzz...zzzzzzz....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz) It's time for me to wake up...

[Zorro]

"when one says, [Just don't disagree with the answers and you'll be fine ] it shows a bad spirit it is as if he is saying all their answers are wrong but don't dare to disagree."

Disagreement equals a bad spirit. Very deep. Unfortunately, I disagree.

[stand up]

I will stand and be counted as an example of one who has questioned, questioned the credibility of some )more than 1) workers, ended up disagreeing, and agreeing to disagree.

If you might want to claim it was about soemthing trivial, let me tell you the topic. It was of the need to have meetings in the home or in church buildings. A topic that some say is fundamental.

There have been NO repercussions, implications, or other detectable negative outcomes.

I don't claim to be the "hundreds of examples" quoted above somewhere, but I am ONE solid example of this topic.

[as i c it]

stand up,

Did you ever question (or receive) an explanation about WI? And why they feel there's no explanation to the believer's is necessary?

Has anyone received one??

[agreeing to dissagree]

Agreeing to dissagree...in 2x2ism? Might that possibly be an oxymoron?

[how dumb i am]

My gosh...it has never occurred to me that workers might accept credit card payments...or even own credit cards. Golly...how dumb am I?

[laws of jehovah]

The "laws" of Jehovah...were formulated by the Hebrew people...not by God.

The "Jehovah" god was created by the Hebrew tribe...not the other way around. Man creates God in Man's image. God is reflected as being complimentary, and in accord with Man's culture & society.

[its]

as said:

of (are you also "and"??)
Do you have a "bitter and bad spirit?" Cause I see the same "spirit" in you (and your response) in the first line, as what I saw in Zorro's response. ( And now, you must excuse me...
(Yawn....z .zz..zzz...zzzzzzz....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz) It's time for me to wake up...

no stay asleep ;D

[so]

zorro said:

"when one says, [Just don't disagree with the answers and you'll be fine ] it shows a bad spirit it is as if he is saying all their answers are wrong but don't dare to disagree."

Disagreement equals a bad spirit. Very deep. Unfortunately, I disagree.

so [Just don't disagree with the answers] is disagreement?
i think your mask is covering your eyes take it of and smell the roses ;D

[as i c it]

Spiderman,

I hope I didn't offend you: and that you didn't take my post personally. I started off saying "Hi" to you: and then carried on with my own tangent...with had nothing to do with what you posted. (I was going to say that it had nothing to do with you: but ...it did. You , and everyone else, (including me) since that point in time when the decision was made to delete WI et al. (And all the consequences/effects..because of that decision.)

As Dr. Phil would say: "What were they thinking!!!"

Hope we're still friends...And, if not, let's do it right... I (yes, I) get to "shun" you!!! (You've just left...you can't have--already--forgotten that "rule")...