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Post by TMB Newbie on Aug 11, 2006 15:03:14 GMT -5
I love the internet! I grew up in a very strict 2x2 home but left the system behind when I left home. I've been using the internet for several years now but never bothered to look up *Truth* until just a few weeks ago. Wow. There sure is a lot on the net about this religion. Anyway, most interesting to me is [1] seeing how different this religion is from one part of the world to the next and [2] seeing how much things have changed over the past 20 years. (In light of what I was taught: Basically the 'only right way' never changes with time or location.) For example: groups.xanga.com/groups/group.aspx?id=1638841groups.xanga.com/groups/group.aspx?id=292336groups.xanga.com/groups/group.aspx?id=1289961Some things I see in these blogs are very different from my strict childhood: - Listening to music (Having a radio) - Playing musical instruments (other than piano) - Participating in sports - Watching movies (Going to a theatre! Wow!) - Watching TV (Owning a TV! Having cable! I'm speechless!) - Playing video games (Owning a game system! Wow!) - Appearance (jeans, shorts, cut hair, hair down, makeup, etc.) - Internet usage acceptable (I'd think this'd be worse than TV!) - Language (Hmmm! Do their parents know?) - Talking about religion (not restricted to meeting anymore?!?!) - Actually using and identifying with the word C word (Christian!) There's more but this is long enough so I'll stop.
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 15:08:43 GMT -5
Is the fellowship Changing?
There are two different groupings here…
In the first group there are things such as hair, tv, movies, jeans, football, and so forth…
In the other group there are things as belief the workers are God’s only true servants, meeting in the homes is the only true way to worship God, all other churches/preachers are false, if someone is truly seeking God will lead them to the 2x2 fellowship, and so forth…
One group IS changing just as it as always changed over the years… Just as radios were taboo 50+ years ago, TVs were taboo 10+ years ago, and so forth…
However, the other grouping is not changing… I have even emailed random people to ask them their beliefs in search for unbiased answers, and 90+% of them uphold the exclusive and sometimes legalistic beliefs that I left the fellowship over… I have been told time and time again that the fellowship is the only true way and to reject it is a rejection of God.
If you doubt that what I say is true then fine… But prove it to yourself by asking professing people very specific questions regarding these subjects. Such as…
1. Do you believe it’s possible for someone to be doing the will of God, serving God to their fullest, and be approved by God if they once professed, but quit the meetings and now attend a different Christian church?
2. Are there any preachers or pastors in the world, outside of the workers ministry, who are preaching and upholding the true Gospel of Jesus Christ?
3. Do you believe someone can continue to serve God to their fullest and truly worship him as you and I do if they come into contact with the workers, but decline to be a part of the fellowship or reject the 2x2 ministry for whatever reason?
4. If someone is truly seeking God with an honest and open heart, is it possible they will be lead to anywhere else besides the 2x2 fellowship?
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Post by funny on Aug 11, 2006 15:45:00 GMT -5
Is the fellowship Changing? There are two different groupings here… In the first group there are things such as hair, tv, movies, jeans, football, and so forth… In the other group there are things as belief the workers are God’s only true servants, meeting in the homes is the only true way to worship God, all other churches/preachers are false, if someone is truly seeking God will lead them to the 2x2 fellowship, and so forth… One group IS changing just as it as always changed over the years… Just as radios were taboo 50+ years ago, TVs were taboo 10+ years ago, and so forth… However, the other grouping is not changing… I have even emailed random people to ask them their beliefs in search for unbiased answers, and 90+% of them uphold the exclusive and sometimes legalistic beliefs that I left the fellowship over… I have been told time and time again that the fellowship is the only true way and to reject it is a rejection of God. If you doubt that what I say is true then fine… But prove it to yourself by asking professing people very specific questions regarding these subjects. Such as… 1. Do you believe it’s possible for someone to be doing the will of God, serving God to their fullest, and be approved by God if they once professed, but quit the meetings and now attend a different Christian church? 2. Are there any preachers or pastors in the world, outside of the workers ministry, who are preaching and upholding the true Gospel of Jesus Christ? 3. Do you believe someone can continue to serve God to their fullest and truly worship him as you and I do if they come into contact with the workers, but decline to be a part of the fellowship or reject the 2x2 ministry for whatever reason? 4. If someone is truly seeking God with an honest and open heart, is it possible they will be lead to anywhere else besides the 2x2 fellowship? you know what?? you guys are out of touch! and i am not saying that to be mean.. its true. oh you are right.. there are several people who believe as you state it to be.. but that is their right. but those are mostly older pple. younger professing people tend to have an attitude reflected in this testimony: i tend to think of paul as a saved man and as judas as a not saved man. but i realize that this is not my place to consider who is or is not saved. that is a burden god has removed from me.
however, as far as truth goes, i know worshipping this way is right for me and i would definitly encourage others to see if its right for them.so knock yourselfs out.. keep blathering on about things you dont really know about.
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Post by Too funny on Aug 11, 2006 15:56:17 GMT -5
Let me ask you this then - if someone leaves the 2x2s do you think they lose their salvation? My family just left and I'm wondering if we can tell all these people telling us about our lost salvation to just call you and you can set em straight. I'm talking about young people - mostly teenagers and college kids, and of course old ppl like you said. Maybe it's just where you're from. Maybe you have your head in the sand. Tell us wassup.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 11, 2006 16:10:18 GMT -5
I agree, younger generations are exploring more. Things that were once taboo are no more. I myself and considered a younger generation (although, not as young as the majority of the bloggers on those sites)- and I know that a few of my "professing" friends and I agree on many points (clothing, salvation, etc).
And yes, it's true, most 2x2ers believe if you leave, you've lost your salvation. It's a sad fact, but not one exclusive to our group. If you'll notice, a lot of these younger kids aren't really thinking clearly. They go out and party, do whatever they want, attend meeting and don't give one thought to "losing their salvation", but when someone leaves the meetings, they believe these people to be the ultimate sinners. I'm not bashing anyone, first of all, but what I am saying is... sooner or later, they'll take a big long look at their lives and hopefully, allow God to do some remodeling of their lifes, starting with their beliefs.
I know that I thought everyone outside wasn't saved. (Not like I thought everyone who went to meetings was saved either though). It was my husband's best friend and his wife, who are wonderful, passionate Christians, who finally broke me of that thinking (and not because of anything they said, but just because I could SEE God in their lives).
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Post by To withopeneyes on Aug 11, 2006 16:25:20 GMT -5
If you'll notice, a lot of these younger kids aren't really thinking clearly. They go out and party, do whatever they want, attend meeting and don't give one thought to "losing their salvation", but when someone leaves the meetings, they believe these people to be the ultimate sinners. I'm not bashing anyone, first of all, but what I am saying is... sooner or later, they'll take a big long look at their lives and hopefully, allow God to do some remodeling of their lifes, starting with their beliefs.
A couple of nights ago, my teenage daughter was talking about this exact thing. She has been brutalized since leaving by all (and I do mean all, as in every single one) of her so-called friends and she says the funny thing is they don't know a thing about God. All they know is that this is the only true way. Hypocrisy abounds in the youth of the 2x2s. Every one can pat themselves on the back and tell each other how special they are, but they are raising a generation of supremely self righteous kids. At least that's the way it looks from our vantage point.
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Post by backwoodsgrrl on Aug 11, 2006 16:47:14 GMT -5
to TMB newbie- I too am new to this site...and also like you, grew up in the "truth". I never professed, but attended meeting with my parents untill I left home. that has been quite a while back (18 years ago). I just recently did a search of the "workers" and came up with this site. I'm not sure what to make of it. I was confused when I came to this site, and am more confused now than ever. I know that I grew up in a fairly conservative environment, but my parents weren't radical......My neices and nephews who profess are teenagers, and their parents (my sisters) seem to be holding the kids to similar habits. No cutting of hair, wearing skirts 90% of the time, no booze or partying, and just encouraged to make wise choices. I don't see them as being raised as much different than I was.......but this site really opens ones eyes to the struggles that others have had. One of the things that I think has changed alot is the workers........When I grew up, having the workers at our home was a great thing, we enjoyed them and they seemed so full of kindness. It was not unusual for them to go and spend time helping the sick and elderly. Or when they stayed at our farm, they would do some little tasks in the garden or yard or around the house. The workers seemed to look forward to these "normal" things, and my parents were VERY good to them. Now that my parents are quite elderly and in need of some encouragement.....the workers seem to avoid them. My parents have dedicated their life to the "Truth" and their parents before them!!! So, what's up? Of course I can't say anything against the workers, that would be sacreligious........ I have never voiced my opinion about this to anyone else.... feedback anyone?
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Post by 7kdascx on Aug 11, 2006 16:54:55 GMT -5
Let me ask you this then - if someone leaves the 2x2s do you think they lose their salvation? My family just left and I'm wondering if we can tell all these people telling us about our lost salvation to just call you and you can set em straight. I'm talking about young people - mostly teenagers and college kids, and of course old ppl like you said. Maybe it's just where you're from. Maybe you have your head in the sand. Tell us wassup. you dont seem to get it.. i dont contemplate whether someone has or has not their salvation. its not my place. if someone leaves, that is their deal. now please do not mistake this as an accepting of all things attitude. fellowship is about worshiping with people who share the same values as you. so its a problem if someone wants to live with their girlfriend and come to meetings. and i am over 30.. not as young as you might think. i see this attitude among the workers around my age and the friends.
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Post by spiderman on Aug 11, 2006 17:03:30 GMT -5
to TMB newbie- I too am new to this site...and also like you, grew up in the "truth". I never professed, but attended meeting with my parents untill I left home. that has been quite a while back (18 years ago). I just recently did a search of the "workers" and came up with this site. I'm not sure what to make of it. I was confused when I came to this site, and am more confused now than ever. I know that I grew up in a fairly conservative environment, but my parents weren't radical......My neices and nephews who profess are teenagers, and their parents (my sisters) seem to be holding the kids to similar habits. No cutting of hair, wearing skirts 90% of the time, no booze or partying, and just encouraged to make wise choices. I don't see them as being raised as much different than I was.......but this site really opens ones eyes to the struggles that others have had. One of the things that I think has changed alot is the workers........When I grew up, having the workers at our home was a great thing, we enjoyed them and they seemed so full of kindness. It was not unusual for them to go and spend time helping the sick and elderly. Or when they stayed at our farm, they would do some little tasks in the garden or yard or around the house. The workers seemed to look forward to these "normal" things, and my parents were VERY good to them. Now that my parents are quite elderly and in need of some encouragement.....the workers seem to avoid them. My parents have dedicated their life to the "Truth" and their parents before them!!! So, what's up? Of course I can't say anything against the workers, that would be sacreligious........ I have never voiced my opinion about this to anyone else.... feedback anyone? What you remember is still going on. There are wonderful workers today who still do the kinds of things that you describe remembering when you were a kid. Time has not changed that. They are just human, and it depends on who is in your parents field and who is overseer of the state, whether or not they get any attention. It's just the human condition. If you would mention this to the right person your parents would get so much attention from the friends and workers they wouldn't believe it. Things like that just happen. There are many wonderful, loving people in the fellowship and if they knew your parents were being neglected they would be there, I'm sure. On the other hand, on this site, there are some of us who just don't agree with the doctrine or the exclusivity of the fellowship so we've chosen to leave.(that would be me and my wife as well as others). It doesn't mean we don't love all those we've left still in fellowship. Welcome to the forum. Spidey
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Post by Too funny on Aug 11, 2006 17:04:37 GMT -5
you dont seem to get it.. i dont contemplate whether someone has or has not their salvation. its not my place. if someone leaves, that is their deal.
No - I DO get it. You see, I just left and I know what ppl are saying to me - both to my face and behind my back. If what you're saying about your feelings is true - that's great - but don't come on here and try to tell us we're out of touch because there's a some new thang going on - we know better. The majority of ppl in the 2x2s believe they are in the only true way. Whether you feel that way personally or not - that's the way it really is.
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 17:36:07 GMT -5
That is correct.
I have been in contact with professing people all around the world (younger ones) and there is no question about their beliefs even in the face of small changes such as TV and Hair...
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Post by wa1nate on Aug 11, 2006 17:45:19 GMT -5
Interesting discussion board. I was just using the internet to try to see if I could find the dates for Milltown convention and I found this instead. I was raised in the truth. When I left home, I did not continue to go to meetings. That was 25 years ago. Even though I was raised in "the truth," I do not feel like I know much about it. You'd think I'd know more, even if just through osmosis. I think I worked very hard to "not listen" in most of the meetings I attended in my youth. My wife was raised in a completely non-religious family. I go to meetings occasionally now. My wife accompanies me once in a great while. While I have certainly struggled with my faith, I have a ton of respect for all the "saints" and even more for the workers. I wish I had the belief and conviction that they do! It is all very confusing. My dad struggled with his faith when I was a teenager including a rather ugly bout with alcoholism. I don't think my mom would have held together without her faith. My dad made it through all that and has been professing many years now..... but it will always be more of a struggle for him than it is for my mom (how the heck does she do it!) ;D My grandfather is in fairly poor health now and the workers visit him often. They still stay with him often and that can't be a lot of fun for them as he is almost blind and unable to entertain them in any way nor fix meals. I don't know how anyone can suggest that the workers have any other motives other than sincerely helping others to the way that they believe. Being a worker cannot be a "fun" life on a daily basis and their faith must be unquestionably strong to be able to live like that. I could not do it. At the very least, they are selfless and wonderfully nice people. (You might find a couple exceptions if you tried hard enough but I'm talking about the 99%). If any workers were ever neglecting an older person (or anyone for that matter), it would surely have to be accidental. When I was in my teens, I felt "left out" and thought that the "saints" looked down on me when I attended meetings and conventions with my mom. Looking back now, that was just my own insecurity and lack of self esteem. That's part of being a teenager I suppose. When I drop by meetings now, I feel welcomed and very "included." In general, the friends are the most friendly, accepting and least judgmental folks that there are. Even though my wife has no interest in attending meetings, she just loves the "saints" and thinks they are wonderful people. I'm sure there are exceptions as there are in any group and I could probably think of a couple of the "saints" who I don't really care to be around. But 99% of them are great. Interesting reading here for sure. Me
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Post by What Hat on Aug 11, 2006 18:04:59 GMT -5
You see, I just left and I know what ppl are saying to me - both to my face and behind my back. what?!? how can you know what they are saying behind your back? they arent saying it to you. and if you are hearing it second (or third) hand you should know its not reliable. what you probably think you are hearing behind your back is just your own perceptions and not reality.
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Post by good for on Aug 11, 2006 18:05:53 GMT -5
internet is good for porn also..
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Post by Too funny on Aug 11, 2006 18:49:37 GMT -5
what?!? how can you know what they are saying behind your back? they arent saying it to you. and if you are hearing it second (or third) hand you should know its not reliable.
what you probably think you are hearing behind your back is just your own perceptions and not reality.
Too funny. I trust the people telling me. I know the people talking about me. They've shunned me. You think that's fun? You think it doesn't happen? Something tells me I know what reality looks like a little better than you do. Just keep telling yourself your little group isn't exclusive. Over and over and over. You won't convince anybody that knows the real truth, but you'll sure convince yourself.
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Post by jxr on Aug 11, 2006 18:54:52 GMT -5
... Even though I was raised in "the truth," I do not feel like I know much about it. You'd think I'd know more, even if just through osmosis. I think I worked very hard to "not listen" in most of the meetings I attended in my youth. ... I think the vast majority of the F&W know very little about their own doctrine. Very few F's ever conduct any real study, and most of what they know and believe is what they hear in the gospel meetings and Sunday morning fellowship. That, unfortunately, is a very small subset of what there is to learn. Couple that with all the misinterpretation and dogma that gets bandied around, and you can see that the collective sum of real, accurate knowledge is miniscule.
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 18:57:23 GMT -5
Why? There are many false belief systems whose preachers are motivated only out of sincerity… what does that prove? Cannot they be sincerely wrong? Then based on this, can we measure their faith as week compared to those who blow themselves up for their faith? The strength of one’s faith is irrelevant if such faith is in the wrong thing… no? Nor could I… but then again… nor could I blow myself up…. Selfless? Some here would strongly disagree with you…. Wonderful? Yes, that is true in my experience… With Due Respect… I remember the wonderful time when I was as naive as yourself in this area… sigh… Because you didn’t ‘work’ hard enough at being professing and hearty… Social groups we are comfortable will do that… the same goes for myself when I attend professing events… Same goes for my experience… LOL! Least Judgemental? ITHINKNOT! Most professing people believe all other Christians are false and hellbound because they do not attend the Friends and Workers church, but rather a ‘worldly’ one with a false preacher… With due respect, I think you have a lot to learn… please feel free to ask me any question… no matter what it is…
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Post by a believer on Aug 11, 2006 19:25:47 GMT -5
I would say the 2x2s are the most judgemental people there are. Hear it in the workers sermons how we are teh only ones saved and everyone else are following false leaders.
Judgemental and gossip are two of the things that people leave to get away from in this group.
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Post by wa1nate on Aug 11, 2006 20:36:47 GMT -5
I don't wish to get into debate, especially when every sentence I typed in a rather free-flowing manner is dissected like a frog. I was merely telling my own personal experience. Everyone else's experience may vary. Have a great day.
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 21:09:44 GMT -5
I don't wish to get into debate, especially when every sentence I typed in a rather free-flowing manner is dissected like a frog. I was merely telling my own personal experience. Everyone else's experience may vary. Have a great day. This is how this board and others work... Please do not be put off by such types of comments or questions... Often times the reason each line is replied to is due to the fact that without this it would be very confusing to link my replies to your points all thoughout your post and my own. otherwise my third reply might be viewed as in reply to your fourth comment... so on and so forth...
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Post by historian on Aug 11, 2006 21:39:18 GMT -5
... Even though I was raised in "the truth," I do not feel like I know much about it. You'd think I'd know more, even if just through osmosis. I think I worked very hard to "not listen" in most of the meetings I attended in my youth. ... I think the vast majority of the F&W know very little about their own doctrine. Very few F's ever conduct any real study, and most of what they know and believe is what they hear in the gospel meetings and Sunday morning fellowship. That, unfortunately, is a very small subset of what there is to learn. Couple that with all the misinterpretation and dogma that gets bandied around, and you can see that the collective sum of real, accurate knowledge is miniscule. I tend to agree - here's why - and I am speaking strictly from personal experience---- I was born and raised in "the truth" (purposely did not capitalize) truth and was taught and believed this was the "only way"- all other churches faiths etc were "false religions, preachers etc" - you know the drill. Professed in my teens - left in early twenties - but could not shake this thing and for thirty odd years did not attend any church whatsoever, because well "the meetings" were the "only way". Eventually went to some gospel meetings and "professed again" but it was not the same as I remembered and the exclusivity and constant reference to "false religions" got to me - still I persisted , wondered about all the "nerve problems" and then happened upon this website a couple of ago and about two years after I "professed" again. Perhaps some can understand when I say that I was " disillusioned" beyond words when I read Cherie Kropp"s (sp) on line book. (thank you Cherie - you taught me to check and study this "fellowship" with an open mind and heart) It has not been easy but I have broken away again after much prayer and self examination and feel as many others do that while the fellowship displays "love" - it is highly conditional upon "pressing on " in the fellowship and acknowledging that it is " the only way". I don't feel that I have any right to judge anyone else's relationship with their Saviour, nor does anyone else- hence as far as meetings go" I'm outa here" as they say.
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Post by spiderman on Aug 12, 2006 10:33:06 GMT -5
I think the vast majority of the F&W know very little about their own doctrine. Very few F's ever conduct any real study, and most of what they know and believe is what they hear in the gospel meetings and Sunday morning fellowship. That, unfortunately, is a very small subset of what there is to learn. Couple that with all the misinterpretation and dogma that gets bandied around, and you can see that the collective sum of real, accurate knowledge is miniscule. I tend to agree - here's why - and I am speaking strictly from personal experience---- I was born and raised in "the truth" (purposely did not capitalize) truth and was taught and believed this was the "only way"- all other churches faiths etc were "false religions, preachers etc" - you know the drill. Professed in my teens - left in early twenties - but could not shake this thing and for thirty odd years did not attend any church whatsoever, because well "the meetings" were the "only way". Eventually went to some gospel meetings and "professed again" but it was not the same as I remembered and the exclusivity and constant reference to "false religions" got to me - still I persisted , wondered about all the "nerve problems" and then happened upon this website a couple of ago and about two years after I "professed" again. Perhaps some can understand when I say that I was " disillusioned" beyond words when I read Cherie Kropp"s (sp) on line book. (thank you Cherie - you taught me to check and study this "fellowship" with an open mind and heart) It has not been easy but I have broken away again after much prayer and self examination and feel as many others do that while the fellowship displays "love" - it is highly conditional upon "pressing on " in the fellowship and acknowledging that it is " the only way". I don't feel that I have any right to judge anyone else's relationship with their Saviour, nor does anyone else- hence as far as meetings go" I'm outa here" as they say. Historian, You should register and hang around here for a while. It's a great place to detox.
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Post by hmmmphf on Aug 12, 2006 11:54:04 GMT -5
I don't wish to get into debate, especially when every sentence I typed in a rather free-flowing manner is dissected like a frog. I was merely telling my own personal experience. Everyone else's experience may vary. Have a great day. This is how this board and others work... Please do not be put off by such types of comments or questions... Often times the reason each line is replied to is due to the fact that without this it would be very confusing to link my replies to your points all thoughout your post and my own. otherwise my third reply might be viewed as in reply to your fourth comment... so on and so forth... Dont you have diapers to change Mr Mom?
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Post by Simple on Aug 13, 2006 15:59:47 GMT -5
to TMB newbie- I too am new to this site...and also like you, grew up in the "truth". I never professed, but attended meeting with my parents untill I left home. that has been quite a while back (18 years ago). I just recently did a search of the "workers" and came up with this site. I'm not sure what to make of it. I was confused when I came to this site, and am more confused now than ever. I know that I grew up in a fairly conservative environment, but my parents weren't radical......My neices and nephews who profess are teenagers, and their parents (my sisters) seem to be holding the kids to similar habits. No cutting of hair, wearing skirts 90% of the time, no booze or partying, and just encouraged to make wise choices. I don't see them as being raised as much different than I was.......but this site really opens ones eyes to the struggles that others have had. One of the things that I think has changed alot is the workers........When I grew up, having the workers at our home was a great thing, we enjoyed them and they seemed so full of kindness. It was not unusual for them to go and spend time helping the sick and elderly. Or when they stayed at our farm, they would do some little tasks in the garden or yard or around the house. The workers seemed to look forward to these "normal" things, and my parents were VERY good to them. Now that my parents are quite elderly and in need of some encouragement.....the workers seem to avoid them. My parents have dedicated their life to the "Truth" and their parents before them!!! So, what's up? Of course I can't say anything against the workers, that would be sacreligious........ I have never voiced my opinion about this to anyone else.... feedback anyone? The workers use people, they "con" people, not for the benefit of God, but for the benefit of the workers. Your parents are used up now and are cast aside without a blink. That is the way of the flesh and those who serve God in the flesh. When you are useful in the eyes of the workers, they keep you blind. The workers love to lord over the friends, The workers love the lack of accountability the friends require. Who dare ask the workers for accountability? Only the wise !! Who are quickly labeled, diminished, neultralized, and dispatched. Keep your nose from the truth and be a good rube. In the 2x2's.............Seek and you shall be labeled a Judas............ What a great bunch of people..........
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 14, 2006 17:50:58 GMT -5
I've noticed some people comment that most f&w know very little about their religion.
Truth be told, I always thought I knew A LOT about our religion, and that everyone else (mainly Catholics) were clueless about theirs. But, now I realize, what I "knew" was what people told me, not what GOD told me.
Now I listen to what God tells me, read the bible for direction, and I'm feeling much better about my spiritual life.
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Post by Simple on Aug 14, 2006 18:10:06 GMT -5
I've noticed some people comment that most f&w know very little about their religion. Truth be told, I always thought I knew A LOT about our religion, and that everyone else (mainly Catholics) were clueless about theirs. But, now I realize, what I "knew" was what people told me, not what GOD told me. Now I listen to what God tells me, read the bible for direction, and I'm feeling much better about my spiritual life. Wow, You have to be willing to be lost to be found. Sounds like another victory for Jesus. More glory for Jesus. Praise the Lord. The beautiful one eyed girl has found her way home.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 15, 2006 10:35:20 GMT -5
All it takes is listening to God. We know Jesus can speak through people, but sometimes we forget that Jesus can speak straight to us. We also forget that the devil can speak through people. So, even if the workers, a preacher, or a religious friend gives you guidance, it's always best to take it to the Lord.
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