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Post by Recovering Atheist on Aug 22, 2007 18:25:11 GMT -5
Hmm...okay. How about you - do you have faith in Zeus or do you have faith in the non-existence of Zeus? I have faith in the existence of God which is, by definition, faith in the non-existence of Zeus.
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Post by mrleo on Aug 22, 2007 18:36:38 GMT -5
Do you think it is accurate to describe yourself as an atheist when it comes to Zeus (and any other gods besides the God you believe in)?
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Post by no name on Aug 22, 2007 20:59:34 GMT -5
This thread reminds me of that book titled: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Also brings to mind C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity. It's funny that you say this. I was just thinking that this thread reminds me of Carl Sagan's book, also a movie, "Contact". The book is great. The movie is pretty good too. If you want to do both, read the book first. Saw the movie, but have not read the book. The movie was "eh" to me ~ i.e., it wasn't horrible, but it also wasn't something that I'd be interested to watch again (as opposed to Terminator 2, which I never get tired of. ;D). I'm guessing the book would be much better. They usually are.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 22, 2007 22:13:32 GMT -5
Faith hope and love are usually linked together.
Hello no name if that is your pic you reminds me of an Actress. She was in 'Pearl Harbour.' She is beautiful and so are you.
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Post by no name on Aug 22, 2007 22:26:32 GMT -5
Faith hope and love are usually linked together. Hello no name if that is your pic you reminds me of an Actress. She was in 'Pearl Harbour.' She is beautiful and so are you. Thank you for the compliment, but in truth the avatar and sig pictures are indeed images of the actress you're thinking about - Kate Beckinsale (yes, she is beautiful). The pictures are from the Underworld movie(s). I've seen Pearl Harbor as well - in fact, that was the first film I saw her in . . . . then I watched Underworld, and she played quite a different character! I was impressed (but then, I like vampire movies). ;D
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Post by Recovering Atheist on Aug 22, 2007 23:05:27 GMT -5
Do you think it is accurate to describe yourself as an atheist when it comes to Zeus (and any other gods besides the God you believe in)? I suppose so, but only as it applies to those (mythical) gods. The dictionary I have says an atheist is "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings". This is just ambiguous enough that it could be taken either way. I believe in a being but not multiple beings. I am not "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being." This makes me not an atheist. I am "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme beings." This makes me an atheist. It's all in how you read and interpret the definition. I believe in one God, the Christian God, and no other God. I do not see myself as an atheist.
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Post by diet coke on Aug 22, 2007 23:52:49 GMT -5
3, Care to offer any suggestions as to where an atheist's moral code originates? If not from God, where does the concept of right or wrong, good or evil come from? This may be rare, but I wonder if anybody else has experienced this: It is when I began to question the existence of the God of the Bible, that my wonder at the universe and desire to know our creator really spawned. I feel now that we know so little about God; thanks go to the Hebrews for all their work on this topic, but I doubt they have any kind of monopoly on spiritual understanding. So, what I began to experience, is a stronger desire for good morals, since the motivation for eternal reward/punishment decreased. It became goodness for goodness sake. Kindness for kindness sake. I feel like a much better person, morally, than when I was merely a toe-the-line f&w.
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religion in schools
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Post by religion in schools on Aug 23, 2007 23:28:23 GMT -5
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 23, 2007 23:44:29 GMT -5
Anything Calvin & Hobbs is good with me. M. *wait a minute...nm. MOST things. I haven't seen 'em all!* :
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Post by to diet coke on Aug 28, 2007 8:42:02 GMT -5
This may be rare, but I wonder if anybody else has experienced this: It is when I began to question the existence of the God of the Bible, that my wonder at the universe and desire to know our creator really spawned. I feel now that we know so little about God; thanks go to the Hebrews for all their work on this topic, but I doubt they have any kind of monopoly on spiritual understanding. So, what I began to experience, is a stronger desire for good morals, since the motivation for eternal reward/punishment decreased. It became goodness for goodness sake. Kindness for kindness sake. I feel like a much better person, morally, than when I was merely a toe-the-line f&w. [/quote] DC, I am going thru something similar as of now. I am afraid to doubt God's existance, (due to fears instilled throughout my life not to do so or I would be punished), but sometimes I wonder. Even then when I need him, I don't doubt to go to him, and I am grateful for this entity, the only one I can rely on. On the other hand, I openly doubt Jesus Christ's and the bible's authenticity. In regards to Jesus, if God is almighty, why would he need Jesus to work with us, of whom I read was just a prophet such as Mohamed and well known and popular as Ghandi. And the bible? Just a book written to attract people to Christanism just as the Koran was written with the purpose to organize the muslim religion. I think that is what I was told Mohamed wrote to introduce the Koran.
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Aug 28, 2007 8:50:19 GMT -5
This may be rare, but I wonder if anybody else has experienced this: It is when I began to question the existence of the God of the Bible, that my wonder at the universe and desire to know our creator really spawned. I feel now that we know so little about God; thanks go to the Hebrews for all their work on this topic, but I doubt they have any kind of monopoly on spiritual understanding. So, what I began to experience, is a stronger desire for good morals, since the motivation for eternal reward/punishment decreased. It became goodness for goodness sake. Kindness for kindness sake. I feel like a much better person, morally, than when I was merely a toe-the-line f&w. DC, I am going thru something similar as of now. I am afraid to doubt God's existance, (due to fears instilled throughout my life not to do so or I would be punished), but sometimes I wonder. Even then when I need him, I don't doubt to go to him, and I am grateful for this entity, the only one I can rely on. On the other hand, I openly doubt Jesus Christ's and the bible's authenticity. In regards to Jesus, if God is almighty, why would he need Jesus to work with us, of whom I read was just a prophet such as Mohamed and well known and popular as Ghandi. And the bible? Just a book written to attract people to Christanism just as the Koran was written with the purpose to organize the muslim religion. I think that is what I was told Mohamed wrote to introduce the Koran. [/quote] You need to read a new book called "The Case For the Real Jesus" by Lee Strobel. I too was confused after reading books such as "the Jesus mysteries", the Jesus Papers, the lost gospels etc etc etc. They had me convinced that Jesus did not exist, and then I started wondering if God did! However the more books I read, the more i realized how inconsistant they all were in their opinions and how they lacked proper scholarly research. This book delves into all the criticisms of Jesus brought up in these books and gets to the "truth". The author used to be an atheist but converte to Christianity a few years ago. However he too was confused with all the supposedly "new" info that was popping up in the media. He didnt know what he was going to find. Its a fantastic book. Youll find it in the New Nonfiction section at your bookstore.
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Post by to woae on Aug 28, 2007 9:14:35 GMT -5
This may be rare, but I wonder if anybody else has experienced this: It is when I began to question the existence of the God of the Bible, that my wonder at the universe and desire to know our creator really spawned. I feel now that we know so little about God; thanks go to the Hebrews for all their work on this topic, but I doubt they have any kind of monopoly on spiritual understanding. So, what I began to experience, is a stronger desire for good morals, since the motivation for eternal reward/punishment decreased. It became goodness for goodness sake. Kindness for kindness sake. I feel like a much better person, morally, than when I was merely a toe-the-line f&w. DC, I am going thru something similar as of now. I am afraid to doubt God's existance, (due to fears instilled throughout my life not to do so or I would be punished), but sometimes I wonder. Even then when I need him, I don't doubt to go to him, and I am grateful for this entity, the only one I can rely on. On the other hand, I openly doubt Jesus Christ's and the bible's authenticity. In regards to Jesus, if God is almighty, why would he need Jesus to work with us, of whom I read was just a prophet such as Mohamed and well known and popular as Ghandi. And the bible? Just a book written to attract people to Christanism just as the Koran was written with the purpose to organize the muslim religion. I think that is what I was told Mohamed wrote to introduce the Koran. You need to read a new book called "The Case For the Real Jesus" by Lee Strobel. I too was confused after reading books such as "the Jesus mysteries", the Jesus Papers, the lost gospels etc etc etc. They had me convinced that Jesus did not exist, and then I started wondering if God did! However the more books I read, the more i realized how inconsistant they all were in their opinions and how they lacked proper scholarly research. This book delves into all the criticisms of Jesus brought up in these books and gets to the "truth". The author used to be an atheist but converte to Christianity a few years ago. However he too was confused with all the supposedly "new" info that was popping up in the media. He didnt know what he was going to find. Its a fantastic book. Youll find it in the New Nonfiction section at your bookstore.[/quote] Thanks WOAE, I will search for the book. I will not loose anything, but gain more knowledge whether pro or con.
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Post by no name on Aug 28, 2007 10:06:34 GMT -5
But the difference between the Bible and the Koran is that the Bible was not just a "book" written by one man. It was a compilation of scriptures, letters, etc. written by countless people. This book delves into all the criticisms of Jesus brought up in these books and gets to the "truth". The author used to be an atheist but converte to Christianity a few years ago. Reminds me of C.S. Lewis - he used to be an Athiest and later wrote the book I already mentioned ( Mere Christianity). I'm not quite done with that book yet, but it is an interesting (and quite logical) read.
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3
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Post by 3 on Aug 28, 2007 11:43:28 GMT -5
on the flip side, I'd love it if christians would read "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris and have some open discussion about it on this message board.
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Post by Wondering on Aug 28, 2007 11:54:20 GMT -5
on the flip side, I'd love it if christians would read "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris and have some open discussion about it on this message board. Every religiously inclined person should read The End of Faith by Harris as well. It should be required reading.
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Post by Before you leap on Aug 28, 2007 14:39:12 GMT -5
You need to read a new book called "The Case For the Real Jesus" by Lee Strobel. I too was confused after reading books such as "the Jesus mysteries", the Jesus Papers, the lost gospels etc etc etc. They had me convinced that Jesus did not exist, and then I started wondering if God did! However the more books I read, the more i realized how inconsistant they all were in their opinions and how they lacked proper scholarly research. This book delves into all the criticisms of Jesus brought up in these books and gets to the "truth". The author used to be an atheist but converte to Christianity a few years ago. However he too was confused with all the supposedly "new" info that was popping up in the media. He didnt know what he was going to find. Its a fantastic book. Youll find it in the New Nonfiction section at your bookstore. You also need to read what others have said about this book: www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/strobel-rev.html
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Aug 28, 2007 14:45:11 GMT -5
Thats a different book. His new book is "The Case for the Real Jesus".
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Post by freespirit on Aug 28, 2007 15:19:21 GMT -5
diet coke, 3, others: Sometimes in the society of sophistication and technology and all the business in today's life, dependence on God can seem and feel foolish, foolhardy, naive, even stupid. Paraphrasing Julia Cameron: We consider the lilies of the field and somehow they seem too quaint for modern life. But have you ever tried "experimenting" with God? For instance, keep a notebook--a journal of questions you would like answered, things you need guidance on, prayers you need answered (ask, seek) and keep on asking. Then... maybe weeks or months or even years later go back over your notes, see what has been answered. See if you can tell where the path has been, where you have been led and where you have been guided. The bible says "seek and ye shall find." God doesn't expect us to charge ahead on blind faith, but on a seeing faith. Granted, sometimes it's like a dim light in a pitch black hole--barely enough to see the next baby step, but other times it's like noon day sun in Arizona. I'm one of those people that doesn't just believe in miracles... I count on them. If you ever get a chance to read The Artist Way, it is really a cool book. peace, freespirit
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Post by Observing on Aug 28, 2007 16:14:57 GMT -5
Actually I have. But I have also experimented without god and the results are the same. It raised the question - "Why is god in the equation"? There is no difference in the outcome.
People look at events and if there is some slight connection with something they might have prayed about it is a prayer come true. They discount all the events that come to pass without being prayed about and all of the prayers that have not been granted.
Praying and then looking back, as mentioned, years later, does not mean the prayer came true. Or that it had any effect at all. I could pray that I would recover from illness and lo and behold 2 years later the cold is gone. Was the prayer answered or did I recover because my white blood cells were up to the task?
I would challenge you to not pray and see if you can see any different outcome. Or, even better, make a list of good and bad events and determine which were answered prayers and which were events that just happened.
Do you ever pray for negative things to happen? Do you question why they happen? If you pray for good things and they come to pass you say your prayers were answered. But if negative things happen who gets the credit?
Or listen to the words of Jesus as quoted in John 16: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give you.
There are no strings attached to this verse. Ask in Jesus' name and you will get it. Ask that all of the starving children in the world be fed for 2 days. Ask that no one dies in Iraq from any bombings 3 days. Ask that for 1 day there are no murders. Prove all of us skeptics wrong once and for all.
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Post by freespirit on Aug 28, 2007 16:45:57 GMT -5
[Prove all of us skeptics wrong once and for all. I cannot prove God to you. Only you can prove (or disprove) God to yourself. I've tried not praying. Didn't work so well for me. Maybe it works great for you and that's cool too. *shrug* peace to all, freespirit
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Post by mrleo on Aug 28, 2007 16:47:01 GMT -5
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Post by Observing on Aug 28, 2007 17:13:36 GMT -5
[Prove all of us skeptics wrong once and for all. I cannot prove God to you. Of course you can't. But did you do as you suggested? Keep a record? When you say it didn't work so well for you, exactly what does that mean? Are you saying nothing at all positive happened when you didn't pray? Did your life take a turn for the worse? I was only suggesting to you that you take some of your own advice to examine the other side of the coin. I do not pray. You do. Doesn't it seem that our lives should be very different? Yet when I look around at my peers I do not see the huge difference one would expect. Christians have an all powerful and all knowing God on their team helping them any time they ask. I am trying to make it as a mere human being. You have claimed prayer works. Doesn't it stand to reason that those who pray would have an advantage? In a disaster they should be more likely to survive. Maybe I am just confused but I thought you said your prayers were at times answered. Am I wrong to assume that you would be praying for things that would have a positive effect on your life? Shouldn't that give people who pray an advantage in life?
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3
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Post by 3 on Aug 28, 2007 23:29:05 GMT -5
Observing:
What a wonderful observation! (pun intended)
Believers claim God answers prayer. They believe God cares for them intimately, therefore they should have have a good life, an advantaged life - more so than those of us who don't pray.
Like you, I don't see the difference between my christian friends' lives and my own.
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3
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Post by 3 on Aug 28, 2007 23:59:38 GMT -5
Freespirit:
Thank you for your kind post & suggestions.
I SPENT YEARS desperately seeking, knocking & asking for God to reveal himself, his way, his truth, anything about himself to me. I wept, I prayed, I ranted, I raved, I postrated myself before him, I asked him to show me how to find him. Anything! And the result? Nothing.
My disbelief in God has been very gradual. It isn't something that has come about easily and I struggle with my 'lack of belief' even today. My good christian friends make the whole belief concept seem so easy.
Recently I found a prayer journal I wrote in back when I thought I was a believer. Some of what I prayed for/ hoped for did come about favorably. But, like observing points out, I cannot prove that the results were b/c of my prayers. Our construction company was facing some lean times and we managed to pull ourselves out of near bankruptcy. Did God have a hand in that or is it b/c my husband is extremely tenancious & optimistic & an incredible problem solver?
Realizing that I had no proof that God had a hand in such favorable results, I simply chose back then to believe that he did. Believing that way brought me a sense of peace. But I find I can no longer believe just b/c it makes me feel good.
Faith is to hope for things that are not seen but which are believed to be true. So your statement of 'God doesn't expect us to charge ahead on blind faith' doesn't make sense to me. Since God & Jesus cannot be proven, having faith in them is blind therefore you are charging ahead on blind faith.
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