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Post by déjà vu on Aug 21, 2007 20:35:04 GMT -5
Atheists are more ignorant then the devil why? Because the devils believe in God and tremble! Charles Stanley
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Post by yep on Aug 21, 2007 20:46:26 GMT -5
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Post by ithascome on Aug 21, 2007 21:29:11 GMT -5
I heard Charles Stanley say that the other day on the radio. All I could think at the time was Charles has not talked with Mr. Apples. ;D Really some Atheist are very smart... they can really make you think about what you believe. I would like to know if any of you have ever been able to convince them that there is a God. The problem with this approach is that they do not believe that there is a devil either.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 21, 2007 21:47:36 GMT -5
When I read this I thought 'WHAT?' I agree ithascome. Some of my closests friends that I have now are atheists. I do not think I have to convince them. That is Gods job. I just need to love and be a friend to them. They know I am a christian. I just dont preach at them. The trouble with a lot of chrisitian leaders is they are so nuclearised in their church life they become narrow in their thinking. [Dont think I have expressed this correctly] Church life is all they know. Because they are not out in the market place. I also believe this is part of the reason so many strong christians are now out of the church system as we know it, still having fellowship with each other. Serving and loving God and others. Its easy to preach, but to experience life away from the suppport network of a strong christian lifestyle is something else.
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Post by Recovering Atheist on Aug 21, 2007 23:19:13 GMT -5
No, they're not dumb, but they're just like the rest of us - human, prone to error, bad judgment, biases, stubbornness, and blind faith in something that can't be proven.
Nothing pisses an atheist off more than pointing out that they have to have faith in something, even if it is "no God".
They hate the word faith. Especially when attributed to them.
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Post by mrleo on Aug 22, 2007 9:31:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure these two types of "faith" are of the same nature. I have never lost sleep due to worrying that maybe - just maybe - Zeus is out there somewhere, and my faith in his non-existence has him mad as Hades.
What do the non-atheists think? When you consider the non-existence of all the gods you don't believe in, would you say that you have faith that they don't exist?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 10:06:23 GMT -5
Actually, that diagram isn't QUITE like that in reality. Science ultimately is philosophy and religion in its own right. And religion, pure religion, asks (nay demands) that you prove it for yourself.
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Post by Recovering Atheist on Aug 22, 2007 10:46:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure these two types of "faith" are of the same nature. I have never lost sleep due to worrying that maybe - just maybe - Zeus is out there somewhere, and my faith in his non-existence has him mad as Hades. But it is still faith, is it not? You have faith in your God. Your faith is fueled by the things you have seen, heard, felt, and experienced, including emotions, in your life. These things have given your mind "evidence" that God is real. An atheist has faith in their God (whatever takes the place of God), usually science. Their faith is fueled by the things they have seen, heard, felt, and experienced, including emotions, in their life. These things have given their mind "evidence" that God does not exist. Your faith allows you to believe in something you cannot prove. Their faith allows them to believe in something they cannot prove. The only difference is, people who believe in God generally see faith as a virtue, but people who do not believe in God generally see faith as a weakness, the superstitious enemy of logic, reason, and science.
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Post by diet coke on Aug 22, 2007 11:11:05 GMT -5
I dispute that you have to have faith in "something". My life, hobbies, and work are all about numbers, percentages, risk assessment. Probably as a result of this, I've learned not to believe in anything unproveable, but to consider everything as a probability. Anyone who says they are 100% sure there is a God is unreasonable; anyone who says they are 100% there is no God is also unreasonable.
To you who are certain of God's existence: Doesn't it bother you that equally bright people are equally certain of his non-existence? And vice versa.
I don't really like that word faith, nor the Bible's insistence that it is an admirable quality. It is healthy for some. A better word that is good for all is Hope.
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Post by diet coke on Aug 22, 2007 11:12:41 GMT -5
The only difference is, people who believe in God generally see faith as a virtue, but people who do not believe in God generally see faith as a weakness, the superstitious enemy of logic, reason, and science. yowsa! This must have been in writing while I was typing my response. Guess I've been put in my place! I am, however, not an atheist.
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Post by Brother Schrock on Aug 22, 2007 11:32:49 GMT -5
Not one bit.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
To Yep. Cute diagram. I'll take the Faith side of it, trusting in Christ as my Savior. I look toward the "End", which is dwelling with Him forever in Eternity.
I love the line of the hymn "Twas life I got, not theory". That's certainly been my experience.
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Post by mrleo on Aug 22, 2007 11:33:32 GMT -5
Not believing in Zeus is not something I consciously practice. It's an understood notion of the vast majority of my culture that has been relegated to the status of mythology. It is such a given that, excepting discussions such as this, I don't think about it any more often than I think about my faith in the non-existence of the Tooth Fairy. I don't schedule special activities for any particular days of the week in a deliberate way for the purpose of celebrating my "faith" in these matters. Do you see any difference between this kind of "faith" and the faith that Christians have in God/Jesus?
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Post by diet coke on Aug 22, 2007 11:57:02 GMT -5
Brother Shrock, I don't mean to imply that your faith is a bad thing. It appears to be something that suits you well. I'm just saying it doesn't work for all of us.
I confess I often feel it would be a good thing if I could simply have faith. Life would be so simple! Then I read or hear something stimulating which makes me happy I am not closed-minded, and I realize I am who I am. Faith doesn't work for me.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 22, 2007 12:09:21 GMT -5
[Quote:]To you who are certain of God's existence: Doesn't it bother you that equally bright people are equally certain of his non-existence? And vice versa.
No. It isnt my responsibility. It is the Lords. He [the Father] is the one who calls. The Holy Spirit convicts.
[Quote}What do the non-atheists think? When you consider the non-existence of all the gods you don't believe in, would you say that you have faith that they don't exist?
Hello Mr. Leo...long time. To me the non existence of 'other gods' is real to the people who worship them. To me they are not real. They are dead gods. Whereas Jesus Christ is alive. I dont see it as a question of faith. Faith is the essence of things hoped for, things not yet seen.
There are misconceptions about the word religion. The only religion that God regards as noteworthy religion is giving to widows and orphans.
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Post by 3 on Aug 22, 2007 12:17:03 GMT -5
It has only been very recently that I've begin to look at atheism & what it entails.
Being raised in the christian culture, through osmosis I believed that atheists were angry, mean people who couldn't 'see the forest for the trees'!
What I've found is the opposite. Many atheists have a moral code that far outshines christians. Atheists are kind, intelliegent, normal people. And, what surprised me is they are everywhere! Many simply haven't come out of the closet because atheism isn't exactly a conversational opener.
Perhaps some day I'll call myself an atheist. I'm still riding the fence, hoping that proof/confirmation of a kind, loving God will come my way.
Like diet coke, I wish I had the belief that many of you have b/c it appears to be an easy way to achieve a kind of placid contentment. (Please don't assume that I'm not happy or content! I get happiness & contentment from other pursuits...) But for some of us, it's not a matter of simply choosing to believe.... anymore than I can simply choose to believe in Santa Claus.
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Post by Brother Schrock on Aug 22, 2007 12:30:44 GMT -5
Brother Shrock, I don't mean to imply that your faith is a bad thing. It appears to be something that suits you well. I'm just saying it doesn't work for all of us. I confess I often feel it would be a good thing if I could simply have faith. Life would be so simple! Then I read or hear something stimulating which makes me happy I am not closed-minded, and I realize I am who I am. Faith doesn't work for me. No problem, Diet Coke. I didn't think you were implying anything. I was just responding to your question and offering an explaination as to why I feel that way.
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Post by Brother Schrock on Aug 22, 2007 12:33:21 GMT -5
3, Care to offer any suggestions as to where an atheist's moral code originates? If not from God, where does the concept of right or wrong, good or evil come from?
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Post by diet coke on Aug 22, 2007 14:30:18 GMT -5
3, Care to offer any suggestions as to where an atheist's moral code originates? If not from God, where does the concept of right or wrong, good or evil come from? Sorry about jumping in, 3, but I think we all agree that if it hurts other people, it's wrong, even evil. If it helps other people, it's good. Where we usually disagree on morals is topics like gay lifestyles, which hurt no one else but conflict with Christian principles. Where does the moral code originate? Evolutionists are intrigued by the survival of species which learn to help one another, more than simply caring for their young.
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Post by no name on Aug 22, 2007 14:41:39 GMT -5
But it is still faith, is it not? 3, Care to offer any suggestions as to where an atheist's moral code originates? If not from God, where does the concept of right or wrong, good or evil come from? This thread reminds me of that book titled: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Also brings to mind C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity.
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Post by Recovering Atheist on Aug 22, 2007 15:28:55 GMT -5
Not believing in Zeus is not something I consciously practice. This doesn't mean faith is not required to not believe in Zeus. You have two choices: Zeus or <Something Else>. For most today, <Something Else> has told us that Zeus isn't real. We believe <Something Else>; we have put our faith in this <Something Else>. It is still believed in faith though. Again, the frequency with which you think about something is not an indication of faith, or lack thereof, in it. This goes for Zeus, the Tooth Fairy, Honest Politicians, God, etc. No, I see no difference. Both have faith in something. <Something 1> gives you comfort with your decision. You have faith in this <Something 1>. Other Christians, because of <Something 2>, believe in God/Jesus. They have faith in this <Something 2>.
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Post by Recovering Atheist on Aug 22, 2007 15:40:21 GMT -5
Brother Shrock, I don't mean to imply that your faith is a bad thing. It appears to be something that suits you well. I'm just saying it doesn't work for all of us. How true! It is often the case that we cannot have faith in the same thing as everyone else. You have faith; maybe not in a religion which says there is a super-natural deity, but you have faith. To have faith in absolutely nothing would make you either dead or omniscient. I doubt you're either. You do have faith. I fail to see what happiness and open/closed-mindedness has to do with faith. Ironic then, that you have to have faith in something (yourself) to make a statement like this. ;D
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Post by Wondering on Aug 22, 2007 15:40:29 GMT -5
3, Care to offer any suggestions as to where an atheist's moral code originates? If not from God, where does the concept of right or wrong, good or evil come from? When humans decided to band together into permanent communities they had to adopt what is basically the golden rule in order for the community to survive. If you don't want someone to kill you and yours, rob from you, steal your things, then you have to give up those "rights" yourself. Religions, like most layered organizations, have few morals. They are designed for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. China existed for thousands of years without a deity. Their moral standards, which by the way are very high, come from people like Confucius, the Yi Jing (Book of Odes), the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu, etc. We're not talking about governments here, which are simply religions in their own right. Athiests are not any more inclined to commit crimes than anyone else. Morals and ethics are culturally and community driven, not religious. If anything, religion relieves us of morals. IE: 9/11 was a faith based initiative. There wasn't an athiest in the bunch. Same for the Crusades. Religion authorizes us to commit any atrocity imaginable as long as it's "God's Will" or "For the glory of God". The Aztecs had the same problem and for the same reason. They were simply complying with the demands for human blood to apease their Gods.
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3
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Post by 3 on Aug 22, 2007 15:53:58 GMT -5
hmmmmm, brother. That's a great question and one I'll have to ponder.
I know my father was raised without religion and is an atheist and he has a huge amount of integrity, compassion, honesty, etc.
Are you suggesting that we are not born with innate, upright morals? Are you suggesting that morals and knowing God go hand in hand and no other possibility exists? One only has to glance briefly at history & even current world events to know that being in a relationship with God does not guarantee good morals!
I think we have instinctive ideas of what is right and what is wrong. These ideas are reinforced by our parents, our teachers, our churches, our political leaders, etc.
I feel morality is constantly evolving as it reflects the values of our culture. Take something simple: the segregation in the southern states. At one time it was culturally acceptable (morally OK) to harbor prejudice against blacks. That is no longer acceptable in our society and would likely be considered morally unjust.
If morals are only an offshoot of religion, then morality would be solely linked to the benefits of being morally upright from a religious standpoint such as, 'I must help this little, old lady across the street b/c God is monitoring me and if I do this, I'll be rewarded in the hereafter'.
OK, now I'm rambling and better stop. I'll continue chewing on the question....
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Post by Recovering Atheist on Aug 22, 2007 15:55:45 GMT -5
3, Care to offer any suggestions as to where an atheist's moral code originates? If not from God, where does the concept of right or wrong, good or evil come from? Here's one suggestion. An individual's moral code is like any of their other personality traits. It comes from a combination of genetics and outside influence. Over time, evolution dictated that human beings more prone to certain (good moral) behaviors were more likely to perpetuate the existence of the species. This was the "fittest" behavior for survival so it survived. Also, the influence of people around them had a certain amount of say, and in some cases control, over their behavior. This is how evolution and training created the moral core of man today. This was the way I looked at it when I was in full Atheist mode.
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Post by Recovering Atheist on Aug 22, 2007 16:04:39 GMT -5
This thread reminds me of that book titled: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Also brings to mind C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity. It's funny that you say this. I was just thinking that this thread reminds me of Carl Sagan's book, also a movie, "Contact". The book is great. The movie is pretty good too. If you want to do both, read the book first.
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Post by mrleo on Aug 22, 2007 16:31:30 GMT -5
Hmm...okay. How about you - do you have faith in Zeus or do you have faith in the non-existence of Zeus?
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 22, 2007 17:23:16 GMT -5
Charactor produces the morals we live by whether christian/non christian/atheist/agnostic. In a family you can have a number of children raised with the same parents and yet as adults behave differently with different morals. Whether it is genetic I do not know.I do know that it comes from different self disciplines, attitudes and mind sets. Some childhood experiences affect one child more than another. Good morals build good charactor. We do have a saying within the christian community. Its the charactor of a man that carries the anointing. In other words a man can have a powerful anointing from GOd/gift. If his charactor isnt right or he has loose morals it wont affect the anointing so much as affect/hurt the people.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 18:19:25 GMT -5
quote - "I dispute that you have to have faith in "something". My life, hobbies, and work are all about numbers, percentages, risk assessment. Probably as a result of this, I've learned not to believe in anything unproveable, but to consider everything as a probability. Anyone who says they are 100% sure there is a God is unreasonable; anyone who says they are 100% there is no God is also unreasonable."
That's true. Ultimately all the universe (or multi-verses, these days) is/are about probability. This also means that nothing is impossible, and nothing ultimately is provable (ie Godel's imcompleteness theory.)
quote - To you who are certain of God's existence: Doesn't it bother you that equally bright people are equally certain of his non-existence? And vice versa. Intelligence doesn't enter the equation. There are smart believers, and dumb disbelievers, for instance.
quote - I don't really like that word faith, nor the Bible's insistence that it is an admirable quality. It is healthy for some. A better word that is good for all is Hope. We begin in Faith, but if we don't prove these things for ourselves then we have no hope.
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