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Post by themaninthemirror on Aug 2, 2024 7:16:47 GMT -5
I think you will find that it was due to the good work of some ex's that the true situation was revealed. Leaving it to the 2x2's it would still be shrouded in secrecy as per their modus operandi. Oh right, so if one or two exes did something you all take credit? That’s not how it works. You will find that society, technology, culture and many other factors drove this not “brave exes”. If it wasn’t for technology it’s likely Europe would still be 99% Christian. Context is everything.
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Post by themaninthemirror on Aug 2, 2024 7:18:27 GMT -5
I think you will find that it was due to the good work of some ex's that the true situation was revealed. Leaving it to the 2x2's it would still be shrouded in secrecy as per their modus operandi. Exactly. What can you expect from people who have so rudely discovered that they had been so violently misled and betrayed. Karma is just a b1tch. Blaming people who themselves were misguided is rather typical. Everyone who was part of the group played a part in cultivating the culture. Not all the culture of the organisation was in isolation and is impacted by wider society.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 2, 2024 18:04:44 GMT -5
Exactly. What can you expect from people who have so rudely discovered that they had been so violently misled and betrayed. Karma is just a b1tch. Blaming people who themselves were misguided is rather typical. Everyone who was part of the group played a part in cultivating the culture. Not all the culture of the organisation was in isolation and is impacted by wider society. Except those who were being held abusively. You sound like a common victim abuser.
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Post by help on Aug 2, 2024 20:15:10 GMT -5
It is just not true that everyone played a part in the cultivating of tha evil culture of the 2x2's. As 2x2's we were told to be good Sheep and follow not lead. The Workers did the leading, they developed the culture, laity had no part in that. We were told, not asked.
We were also told never to talk about anything that would damage the "Truth". So any discussion about CSA or SA never happened. I had good 2x2 mates 70 years ago who I kept company with. They had been the victims of abuse and I have only found out about it since the evil behaviour has been exposed. I do agree that social media has played a big part in helping to make known all the 2x2 dark secrets. That has to be a good thing, there should always be openness and transparency in an organisation, not a clandestine type operation.
And it was ex's who were the ones who through their tireless efforts were able to expose the evil. Ross Bowden in Australia worked hard for some years in contact with Workers urging them to deal with the CSA issue. But of course it was without positive result, due to wrong 2x2 culture. He had no alternative but to go to the media and help produce "Exposing the Two By Two Church" - 60 Minutes Australia Two by Two Coverage. Even then it took time and continued pressure to make the Workers take action. We applaud Ross and others for their patience and persistence and time spent in forcing the Workers to take notice.
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 2, 2024 22:57:12 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head Help.
I don't think it was as bad over the ditch, but from what those in the West Island have been telling me, you guys had it pretty rough under some rather tyrannical rulers.
It is easy to say that the laity let them become tyrants, but they were brainwashed into believing they were going to hell in a hand-basket if they dared go against, or even confront the workers.
The actions of MaCourt, McKay, Kitto, Corbett and others are legendary.
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Post by help on Aug 3, 2024 0:00:26 GMT -5
We were oblivious of what was going on. Even if we had of known, there was nothing we could do about it. And all the time we were being told by Workers that it was the "Perfect Way" why would we suspect rats in the ranks, committing evil, criminal actions. I agree that CSA and SA are a scourge in our society, has been for all time, but never would we believe it to be happening in the "Perfect Way".
We give full credit to the ex's who worked tirelessly for some years to get the message through to the Workers. But of course some Workers and Laity will never accept that it has happened because of the peculiar modus operandi of the 2x2's. Everyone is on a different page, just what ever comes into their mind. The problem with not having a documented doctrine, that every proper Church should have. That brings about consistency and proper guidance.
Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina, meaning "teaching, instruction") is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or in a belief system. People will say, "We use the Bible" and therein is the problem. It is open to all sorts of interpretation, that causes confusion and lack of order and direction.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 3, 2024 1:13:28 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head Help. I don't think it was as bad over the ditch, but from what those in the West Island have been telling me, you guys had it pretty rough under some rather tyrannical rulers. It is easy to say that the laity let them become tyrants, but they were brainwashed into believing they were going to hell in a hand-basket if they dared go against, or even confront the workers. The actions of MaCourt, McKay, Kitto, Corbett and others are legendary. And if you DIDN'T comply, kick you out without recourse. That's the REAL story of the abuse/control.
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Post by Annan on Aug 3, 2024 7:16:28 GMT -5
Everyone who was part of the group played a part in cultivating the culture. Not all the culture of the organisation was in isolation and is impacted by wider society. That's exactly how I feel. Even as a child I knew something was wrong in the cult teachings and worker control. I never understood (and still don't) how any adult couldn't come to the same conclusions I did even at a young age. I don't understand brainwashing. I was always curious and asked questions ad nauseam till I got satisfactory answers. Often those answers were not what the cult taught. I was raised in the cult and forced to comply, but I was never a believer. I raised my children to question everything and come to their own conclusions. Ask why. Ask how. Ask till it all makes sense. My children are both Atheists.
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Post by Annan on Aug 3, 2024 7:28:57 GMT -5
Compulsion Religion is not a compulsion towards God. Neither is God a compulsion towards religion. Man has made religion a tool. It is a crutch for some, and for others still, a club to beat the weak. Understanding of the divine does not come from inclusion or exclusion from any group. Neither does it come from the adoration of statues or the creation or recitation of the countless names for the divine. Creation was not made for a narcissistic God. It was created simply from love. How one treats this word or idea is up to each person. Though some may reject it, while others embrace it, it is up to each individual. There is no compulsion. Love, like God, is an invitation. It does not need to conquer. It does not need to yell or berate. It does not need to boast or put others down. Love is understanding in the divine. ~ Maglinte, Dennis (2011-05-23). Awareness of the Heart
Something Nathan needs to learn.
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Post by Admin on Aug 5, 2024 17:31:38 GMT -5
I think you will find that it was due to the good work of some ex's that the true situation was revealed. Leaving it to the 2x2's it would still be shrouded in secrecy as per their modus operandi. Well yes, and no. Not totally true. I know there were, and still are, some things happening behind the scenes.
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 5, 2024 21:52:41 GMT -5
There are some great people in the church that are working to expose and fix the issues. I know some, including a worker.
There are also groups setup which are non-partisan (innies and exes) which assist victims
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2024 16:59:14 GMT -5
What really bothers me is that those workers with allegations against them (multiple not just one) are still allowed to speak at convention. Children are actually more at risk now I think because the people that still are attending convention are the group that have literally turned a blind eye to all the allegations and won't be keeping a good eye on their kids when they are around those workers. Western Canada conventions have several workers with multiple allegations against them and they are still workers, still allowed on convention grounds and still speaking from the platform. I was happy to see that the owners of the Duncan convention actually sent letters out to the workers scheduled to attend telling them if they had any allegations against them they weren't welcome. I heard that they initially wanted the workers to sign that they had no allegations but several refused so the letter was just distributed. I'm not surprised because who would admit they were a predator anyway. The good thing is that the list of workers with allegations is constantly being updated as they become known and some conventions have actually escorted those persons off the grounds. That's progress but so little so late. I don’t think the ex community helps this either - many exes where part of the group throughout all of this, they ran away in the last 1.5 years and started throwing bricks at the culture they maintained and the abuse they allowed - now they blame “the workers” when they were also cowards - easy now to stand up when everyone else has - pon them! From what I've seen is the exes are the driving force behind getting the workers to do something about the abuse they have allowed in the church. Yes many left after they found out what was happening. Yes some knew and didn't speak up, some for years. I believe that is because they feared being excommunicated by the workers if they spoke up because it certainly has happened to the friends that rocked the boat before. When you believe that your very salvation depends on being part of the workers church you turn a blind eye to things, especially if you think it was just one or two instances. But when it became known how wide spread the CSA was, they could no longer just turn a blind eye. They had to speak up and then they had to leave because of being forced out or just so betrayed when they saw the workers weren't going to do anything different, even with the knowledge of how hurtful and widespread the rape of children was in their church. Many who have left are still afraid they have doomed themselves to hell. It's a horrible place to find yourself when you've believed all your life that your salvation was dependent on professing in the church and then realizing you can't be part of something so horrific. It takes courage for them to leave and while I wish they had said something before if they knew, I totally understand where they were coming from in their minds because we were all brainwashed from the platform that our only hope of heaven was to profess and get baptized in the 'Way'. Also there are still people in that are still trying to make changes. I know of a few that have been trying to do something for years. Those on Wings some are still professing and they have tried to change things, raise awareness. Sometimes you can do more good on the inside, but the workers have doubled down this time and they aren't even listening to those people anymore.
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2024 17:05:02 GMT -5
Everyone who was part of the group played a part in cultivating the culture. Not all the culture of the organisation was in isolation and is impacted by wider society. That's exactly how I feel. Even as a child I knew something was wrong in the cult teachings and worker control. I never understood (and still don't) how any adult couldn't come to the same conclusions I did even at a young age. I don't understand brainwashing. I was always curious and asked questions ad nauseam till I got satisfactory answers. Often those answers were not what the cult taught. I was raised in the cult and forced to comply, but I was never a believer. I raised my children to question everything and come to their own conclusions. Ask why. Ask how. Ask till it all makes sense. My children are both Atheists. I was like you, I questioned and we all know what that got me !! I quit professing and never attended another meeting once I could graduate grade 12 and leave home. But I do know the psychology of brainwashing and I do know that it's a very real phenomena. Even I thought I was going to hell for not worshiping the Christian God. I'd been told that all my life (12 years). Thankfully I didn't let my fears stop me from leaving. Both my children are also atheists. I allowed them to attend the churches with their friends and grandparents and told them to come to their own conclusions. They did.
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