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Post by tulip2 on Jun 14, 2024 19:05:13 GMT -5
Well, it seems that backtracking on policies, guidelines and investigations is in vogue right now, and the move is towards the more spiritual George Peterson style guidelines. In the last few days, we have had both Craig Winquist and Darryl Doland looking to not proceed with guidelines/policies that, as I understand it, have been proposed by groups they set up. There seems to be a converging of minds among overseers that they don`t need strict policies and guidelines and there is no need for professional investigations. ''' Darryl started by saying he wasn`t at peace with putting out the GRACE report, but it was put out by others anyway. He stated that they have to prioritise Christ, and that they are always going to have victims, but not always going to have Christ. [ weird comment ] He said more aware some people have received God`s grace and both victims and perpetrator have moved on and some weren’t at that place yet, but they (those who aren`t at that place yet) don`t need more guilt and condemnation, they need care. He said, talk to all people like they are fragile, might be talking to a victim. He has spoken to other overseers and the same stories keep coming up that some people have been through things they want to leave in the past (because God has) and that for people to continually dwell on them traumatises and revictimizes them. Darryl doesn’t know that anyone closely involved in the investigation that would say it was a win or would ever do it again. He is not sold on investigations and so the guidelines have problems. There has been some effort to relook at the guidelines and some on the staff have tried to trim down the guidelines and loose them up a little bit. He notes that there is still a lot in the guidelines about investigations and they could spend a lot of time and money on those, like the GRACE investigation, and still not change anybody`s mind. There was a call to Darryl from Alan Mitchell (Australia), about how the investigation went and how Darryl was feeling about it. Darryl said he wouldn’t do it again, which Alan was glad to hear that. Alan had already come to the same conclusion as Darryl, so a zoom call was to be set up with Darryl and all Aus / NZ overseers to tell them that. ''' If the 2x2 group is going to implode in Australia, the place to initiate that implosion is Queensland. There's its reputed history of CSA and SA within the ministry and church laity, and then there's its overseer. Alan Mitchell. The guy has a reputation. And it's not exactly that of one of the wise men from the east. If he's leading the pack of the other Australian & New Zealand overseers in all this, then there's really no hope. More fool them! The group of overseers: Malcolm Clapham, Graeme Dalton, Trevor Joll, Alan Mitchell, Steve Thorpe (Aust) and Wayne Dean (NZ) This is a hard listen, but it really highlights how Doland seems to be backtracking, possibly helped by other overseers, and just how out of touch they are. Alan Mitchell also seems to be an influence, and not for good.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 15, 2024 2:15:45 GMT -5
Well, it seems that backtracking on policies, guidelines and investigations is in vogue right now, and the move is towards the more spiritual George Peterson style guidelines. In the last few days, we have had both Craig Winquist and Darryl Doland looking to not proceed with guidelines/policies that, as I understand it, have been proposed by groups they set up. There seems to be a converging of minds among overseers that they don`t need strict policies and guidelines and there is no need for professional investigations. ''' Darryl started by saying he wasn`t at peace with putting out the GRACE report, but it was put out by others anyway. He stated that they have to prioritise Christ, and that they are always going to have victims, but not always going to have Christ. [ weird comment ] He said more aware some people have received God`s grace and both victims and perpetrator have moved on and some weren’t at that place yet, but they (those who aren`t at that place yet) don`t need more guilt and condemnation, they need care. He said, talk to all people like they are fragile, might be talking to a victim. He has spoken to other overseers and the same stories keep coming up that some people have been through things they want to leave in the past (because God has) and that for people to continually dwell on them traumatises and revictimizes them. Darryl doesn’t know that anyone closely involved in the investigation that would say it was a win or would ever do it again. He is not sold on investigations and so the guidelines have problems. There has been some effort to relook at the guidelines and some on the staff have tried to trim down the guidelines and loose them up a little bit. He notes that there is still a lot in the guidelines about investigations and they could spend a lot of time and money on those, like the GRACE investigation, and still not change anybody`s mind. There was a call to Darryl from Alan Mitchell (Australia), about how the investigation went and how Darryl was feeling about it. Darryl said he wouldn’t do it again, which Alan was glad to hear that. Alan had already come to the same conclusion as Darryl, so a zoom call was to be set up with Darryl and all Aus / NZ overseers to tell them that. ''' If the 2x2 group is going to implode in Australia, the place to initiate that implosion is Queensland. There's its reputed history of CSA and SA within the ministry and church laity, and then there's its overseer. Alan Mitchell. The guy has a reputation. And it's not exactly that of one of the wise men from the east. If he's leading the pack of the other Australian & New Zealand overseers in all this, then there's really no hope. More fool them! The group of overseers: Malcolm Clapham, Graeme Dalton, Trevor Joll, Alan Mitchell, Steve Thorpe (Aust) and Wayne Dean (NZ) This is a hard listen, but it really highlights how Doland seems to be backtracking, possibly helped by other overseers, and just how out of touch they are. Alan Mitchell also seems to be an influence, and not for good.
That concerns me too, regarding Alan Mitchell's plans with respect to the other overseers.
I see more retrograde steps
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 15, 2024 22:37:02 GMT -5
For me, this was the biggest shocker: ~32:00 I never did like the wording that says that you’re once a pedophile or once a CSA or whatever you want to call it, you always are - that's not true. The studies that they made, the studies were all on groups of individuals that had no dealings with the spirit of God and when God begins to deal with his people and there's a willingness in the heart of that person, there is a change, can be a change, and we think of these people that maybe a single incident, in what - 30 years, 40 years, 50 years or maybe even 10 years or five years and let the spirit of God work; we need to be very careful for them and the thought has just come the last couple weeks are we making a new level of victims and that we're saying “okay you can't come, you can't go,” we're victimizing this, we're making them victims of our decision in our guidelines; there has to be that guidance of the spirit of God…I have so many questions about this... Has your track record proven that you can pick repeat offenders by the 'spirit of God'? When you have known about offenders, have you done anything effective with that information? People who are pedophiles are welcome to attend meetings but SO many over the years have been victimized for offenses like hair length, dress length, having the wrong job, having the "wrong spirit" by asking questions? Most atrociously, the csa victims themselves have been victimized for reporting. Are you really saying 'God forbid we victimize pedophiles' ? If the last few decades in the fellowship have proven anything, it is exactly this: the workers/overseers either cannot discern who has the "spirit of God", and/or have been completely unwilling to deal with known perpetrators. The "worldly" evidence clearly shows that perps need constant accountability to stay straight. The stakes are too high to assume they are "fixed".
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 16, 2024 0:52:19 GMT -5
For me, this was the biggest shocker: ~32:00 I never did like the wording that says that you’re once a pedophile or once a CSA or whatever you want to call it, you always are - that's not true. The studies that they made, the studies were all on groups of individuals that had no dealings with the spirit of God and when God begins to deal with his people and there's a willingness in the heart of that person, there is a change, can be a change, and we think of these people that maybe a single incident, in what - 30 years, 40 years, 50 years or maybe even 10 years or five years and let the spirit of God work; we need to be very careful for them and the thought has just come the last couple weeks are we making a new level of victims and that we're saying “okay you can't come, you can't go,” we're victimizing this, we're making them victims of our decision in our guidelines; there has to be that guidance of the spirit of God…I have so many questions about this... Has your track record proven that you can pick repeat offenders by the 'spirit of God'? When you have known about offenders, have you done anything effective with that information? People who are pedophiles are welcome to attend meetings but SO many over the years have been victimized for offenses like hair length, dress length, having the wrong job, having the "wrong spirit" by asking questions? Most atrociously, the csa victims themselves have been victimized for reporting. Are you really saying 'God forbid we victimize pedophiles' ? If the last few decades in the fellowship have proven anything, it is exactly this: the workers/overseers either cannot discern who has the "spirit of God", and/or have been completely unwilling to deal with known perpetrators. The "worldly" evidence clearly shows that perps need constant accountability to stay straight. The stakes are too high to assume they are "fixed". Exactly Elizabeth, and where he is wanting to go is, how the church got into this mess in the first place. To be honest, in my opinion, brown stuff for brains!
I think they are believing their own lies and twisted doctrine that results in brainwashing!
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Post by snow on Jun 16, 2024 13:19:38 GMT -5
For me, this was the biggest shocker: ~32:00 I never did like the wording that says that you’re once a pedophile or once a CSA or whatever you want to call it, you always are - that's not true. The studies that they made, the studies were all on groups of individuals that had no dealings with the spirit of God and when God begins to deal with his people and there's a willingness in the heart of that person, there is a change, can be a change, and we think of these people that maybe a single incident, in what - 30 years, 40 years, 50 years or maybe even 10 years or five years and let the spirit of God work; we need to be very careful for them and the thought has just come the last couple weeks are we making a new level of victims and that we're saying “okay you can't come, you can't go,” we're victimizing this, we're making them victims of our decision in our guidelines; there has to be that guidance of the spirit of God…I have so many questions about this... Has your track record proven that you can pick repeat offenders by the 'spirit of God'? When you have known about offenders, have you done anything effective with that information? People who are pedophiles are welcome to attend meetings but SO many over the years have been victimized for offenses like hair length, dress length, having the wrong job, having the "wrong spirit" by asking questions? Most atrociously, the csa victims themselves have been victimized for reporting. Are you really saying 'God forbid we victimize pedophiles' ? If the last few decades in the fellowship have proven anything, it is exactly this: the workers/overseers either cannot discern who has the "spirit of God", and/or have been completely unwilling to deal with known perpetrators. The "worldly" evidence clearly shows that perps need constant accountability to stay straight. The stakes are too high to assume they are "fixed". He obviously hasn't thought it through if he thinks that being in meetings 'cures' you! Look at all the workers that have committed child rape and they not only sat in meetings they preached in meetings! So right there disproves his claim that only those in meetings have the ability to be cured and that these studies weren't carried out on those who attend meetings. In fact it would seem to be exactly the opposite based on the high numbers of predators in the 2x2's vs even the RCC. He doesn't care about the children, he says the ministry couldn't have done what is being said and it's important to ignore the plight of children so that they can preserve the quality of the ministry. That is the most disgusting mindset I've seen out of these guys yet. There is already no quality in the ministry if that's the mindset. You can't preserve what isn't there in the first place.
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Post by fixit on Jun 16, 2024 14:52:10 GMT -5
The "worldly" evidence clearly shows that perps need constant accountability to stay straight. The stakes are too high to assume they are "fixed". He obviously hasn't thought it through if he thinks that being in meetings 'cures' you! Look at all the workers that have committed child rape and they not only sat in meetings they preached in meetings! So right there disproves his claim that only those in meetings have the ability to be cured and that these studies weren't carried out on those who attend meetings. In fact it would seem to be exactly the opposite based on the high numbers of predators in the 2x2's vs even the RCC. He doesn't care about the children, he says the ministry couldn't have done what is being said and it's important to ignore the plight of children so that they can preserve the quality of the ministry. That is the most disgusting mindset I've seen out of these guys yet. There is already no quality in the ministry if that's the mindset. You can't preserve what isn't there in the first place. The ministry tried this extremely dangerous experiment with Steve Rohs.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 16, 2024 16:12:24 GMT -5
They just don't get it, that it is a sickness that in over 90% of cases, cannot be cured. It is not a moral failure per se.
I have seen a perpetrators eyes glaze over and his hands get the shakes, when describing what he did, some ten years later. It was interesting seeing him still in the grip of what possessed him. NO amount of counseling or punishment could cure him. His eligibility for parole was cancelled, and moved to preventative detention. (He was a rape/murderer also, and previously a top businessman)
Steve Rohs is a good example of one, who had a number of victims, then went on to abuse his own daughter, in spite of being a worker, and then an elder.
We have one ex-worker in our own country who also proved incurable.
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Post by snow on Jun 17, 2024 14:14:06 GMT -5
He obviously hasn't thought it through if he thinks that being in meetings 'cures' you! Look at all the workers that have committed child rape and they not only sat in meetings they preached in meetings! So right there disproves his claim that only those in meetings have the ability to be cured and that these studies weren't carried out on those who attend meetings. In fact it would seem to be exactly the opposite based on the high numbers of predators in the 2x2's vs even the RCC. He doesn't care about the children, he says the ministry couldn't have done what is being said and it's important to ignore the plight of children so that they can preserve the quality of the ministry. That is the most disgusting mindset I've seen out of these guys yet. There is already no quality in the ministry if that's the mindset. You can't preserve what isn't there in the first place. The ministry tried this extremely dangerous experiment with Steve Rohs. I think Rohs is in for a bit of rough water in the very near future. That interview they tried to conduct outside of his place of business has hit him in the pocket book with fewer clientele already. Also, people leaving reviews on his site that he has to have removed but they've already done some damage to his reputation. He's in a position that most of the workers that get allegations against don't have to deal with. He has a business while the workers are still protected by the church, their 'jobs' there for the most part.
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Post by fixit on Jun 17, 2024 17:42:42 GMT -5
They just don't get it, that it is a sickness that in over 90% of cases, cannot be cured. It is not a moral failure per se. The ministry doesn't seem to have authority over unclean spirits does it? I mean...it seems unable to take a firm stand against unclean spirits. Mark 6:7 He called the twelve and began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over the unclean spirits.
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Post by verna on Jun 17, 2024 19:31:31 GMT -5
They just don't get it, that it is a sickness that in over 90% of cases, cannot be cured. It is not a moral failure per se. The ministry doesn't seem to have authority over unclean spirits does it? I mean...it seems unable to take a firm stand against unclean spirits. Mark 6:7 He called the twelve and began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. Fixit - would you please tell me what you mean when you say “unclean spirit”? Is this something I might run across in my everyday life? It just sounds like such a bizarre term to me that I am curious what you mean by it.
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Post by fixit on Jun 17, 2024 21:33:11 GMT -5
The ministry doesn't seem to have authority over unclean spirits does it? I mean...it seems unable to take a firm stand against unclean spirits. Mark 6:7 He called the twelve and began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. Fixit - would you please tell me what you mean when you say “unclean spirit”? Is this something I might run across in my everyday life? It just sounds like such a bizarre term to me that I am curious what you mean by it. Don't overthink it. Workers talk of a "wrong spirit" which as far as I can tell means not going along with everything they do and say. So what I was thinking was that an unclean spirit would be an acceptance or perpetration of abuse and harm to others and most of us agree that harming children is about as heinous as abuse can get.
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Post by fixit on Jun 18, 2024 0:50:52 GMT -5
He obviously hasn't thought it through if he thinks that being in meetings 'cures' you! Look at all the workers that have committed child rape and they not only sat in meetings they preached in meetings! So right there disproves his claim that only those in meetings have the ability to be cured and that these studies weren't carried out on those who attend meetings. In fact it would seem to be exactly the opposite based on the high numbers of predators in the 2x2's vs even the RCC. He doesn't care about the children, he says the ministry couldn't have done what is being said and it's important to ignore the plight of children so that they can preserve the quality of the ministry. That is the most disgusting mindset I've seen out of these guys yet. There is already no quality in the ministry if that's the mindset. You can't preserve what isn't there in the first place. What they don't realise is that "lost sheep" will not be drawn to a group that is incapable of removing the wolf nature that has scattered the sheep. A ministry can't "give Jesus" to anyone. At best those who have the Christ within can point people to Jesus. Many victims associate worker-speak and Jesus-talk with the trauma they have experienced, so all that should be put aside. The story of the good Samaritan is very powerful if we learn the lesson Jesus was trying to convey. The Priest and Levite represent pious workers and friends who lack compassion and don't want to know about the needs of victims. The despised Samaritan does everything within his power to provide for the practical needs of the victim.
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Post by verna on Jun 19, 2024 13:47:16 GMT -5
Fixit - would you please tell me what you mean when you say “unclean spirit”? Is this something I might run across in my everyday life? It just sounds like such a bizarre term to me that I am curious what you mean by it. Don't overthink it. Workers talk of a "wrong spirit" which as far as I can tell means not going along with everything they do and say. So what I was thinking was that an unclean spirit would be an acceptance or perpetration of abuse and harm to others and most of us agree that harming children is about as heinous as abuse can get. l I don’t think I’m overthinking it. My brain simply does not know what to do with terms like this. I appreciate your attempt to explain. I guess you’re talking to people to whom these terms mean something.
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