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Post by uker260702 on Jun 14, 2024 8:17:47 GMT -5
Well, it seems that backtracking on policies, guidelines and investigations is in vogue right now, and the move is towards the more spiritual George Peterson style guidelines. In the last few days, we have had both Craig Winquist and Darryl Doland looking to not proceed with guidelines/policies that, as I understand it, have been proposed by groups they set up. There seems to be a converging of minds among overseers that they don`t need strict policies and guidelines and there is no need for professional investigations. (The post below got a lot longer than I expected, but I wanted to try and be fair to what Darryl said - might have just been easier to post a transcript!) Happy to have anything corrected that`s not an accurate representation. (have since noticed Pragmatic linked the video - professing.proboards.com/post/1075453/thread ) Darryl started by saying he wasn`t at peace with putting out the GRACE report, but it was put out by others anyway. He stated that they have to prioritise Christ, and that they are always going to have victims, but not always going to have Christ. He said more aware some people have received God`s grace and both victims and perpetrator have moved on and some weren’t at that place yet, but they (those who aren`t at that place yet) don`t need more guilt and condemnation, they need care. He said, talk to all people like they are fragile, might be talking to a victim. He has spoken to other overseers and the same stories keep coming up that some people have been through things they want to leave in the past (because God has) and that for people to continually dwell on them traumatises and revictimizes them. Darryl doesn’t know that anyone closely involved in the investigation that would say it was a win or would ever do it again. He is not sold on investigations and so the guidelines have problems. There has been some effort to relook at the guidelines and some on the staff have tried to trim down the guidelines and loose them up a little bit. He notes that there is still a lot in the guidelines about investigations and they could spend a lot of time and money on those, like the GRACE investigation, and still not change anybody`s mind. There was a call to Darryl from Alan Mitchell (Australia), about how the investigation went and how Darryl was feeling about it. Darryl said he wouldn’t do it again, which Alan was glad to hear that. Alan had already come to the same conclusion as Darryl, so a zoom call was to be set up with Darryl and all Aus / NZ overseers to tell them that. It was said by Darryl that (the proposals) won`t make everybody happy, but it won`t divide spiritual people. There were now two choices – a policy like that or don`t have a policy. The guideline team wouldn`t want their guidelines trimming, so Darryl feels it should be built from scratch. Darryl had been talking to older brothers, and the reason it is not working is because it`s trying to develop corporate polices but th are family (not corporate) They are going to educate people and also emphasise reporting and going to police and the local authorities. He said this would deal with a large percentage of the risk and the (new?) guidelines would cover a small part. Darryl acknowledged that without such clear guidelines, it would leave a lot more discretion for elders and the ministry. He says the guidelines (as they are) treat everyone as a paedophile and they`re not, and there needs to be some loose guidance about how to become the ideal person (Christ) When asked what the driving force behind the guidelines was, Darryl says that people want comfort, and assurance its being taken seriously, and to be fair in dealing with these situations. He acknowledges that it’s hard to take the word of someone who might not have a great reputation, over someone you honour and respect, so you need more than just feelings to sort that out. Also, it looks good to people outside of the fellowship, knowing its being taken seriously and that they`re taking accountability for what’s happening. Darryl says that people don`t report for decades, and they`re trying to change this thought of hiding things, and the sooner things are reported the better. However, he says it’s not right to go round digging stuff up, as they`re not trying to become a communist group spying on each other. He mentions again about the need for reporting, education and says the more that can be left in the hands of the law the better. He is glad to have the safety team around right now, they`re so supportive, and while he would have to think what their role be in the future, he isn`t ready to say they don`t have a role. Darryl says that if they pull the plug on the guidelines or go with the proposed ones, they are probably saying goodbye to Olympia convention and half of Seattle. He goes on to say that what he likes is that anyone who loves scripture will be ok with spiritual guidelines.
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Post by tulip2 on Jun 14, 2024 17:15:33 GMT -5
Well, it seems that backtracking on policies, guidelines and investigations is in vogue right now, and the move is towards the more spiritual George Peterson style guidelines. In the last few days, we have had both Craig Winquist and Darryl Doland looking to not proceed with guidelines/policies that, as I understand it, have been proposed by groups they set up. There seems to be a converging of minds among overseers that they don`t need strict policies and guidelines and there is no need for professional investigations. ... Darryl acknowledged that without such clear guidelines, it would leave a lot more discretion for elders and the ministry. Thanks uker260702. ".. without such clear guidelines, it would leave a lot more discretion for elders and the ministry". Exactly the point. Euphemism for allowing them to carry on carrying on!
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Post by tulip2 on Jun 14, 2024 17:36:46 GMT -5
Well, it seems that backtracking on policies, guidelines and investigations is in vogue right now, and the move is towards the more spiritual George Peterson style guidelines. In the last few days, we have had both Craig Winquist and Darryl Doland looking to not proceed with guidelines/policies that, as I understand it, have been proposed by groups they set up. There seems to be a converging of minds among overseers that they don`t need strict policies and guidelines and there is no need for professional investigations. ... Darryl says that if they pull the plug on the guidelines or go with the proposed ones, they are probably saying goodbye to Olympia convention and half of Seattle. He goes on to say that what he likes is that anyone who loves scripture will be ok with spiritual guidelines. "... anyone who loves scripture will be ok with spiritual guidelines." Assume this Daryl Doland has in mind cherry-picking the scripture he likes to keep as many people (laity) happy in meetings as they have been since Wm Irvine started this fellowship - thereby supporting him and his workers? Well here's a few scriptural verses he shouldn't leave out: Ephesians 5:3 "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people." 1Thessalonians 4:3-5 "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;" Galatians 5:19 "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality," 1Corinthians 7:2 "But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband." Acts 20:28-30 "Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them." The worst aspect of all this is the false doctrine that is being widely preached. If they truly believed all scripture, not just the cherry-picked verses they always preach on, things could be a lot better. And spiritually alive for the poor people still trusting in being in a system of man, rather than in Christ.
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Post by tulip2 on Jun 14, 2024 17:54:47 GMT -5
Here's an example for Darryl Doland on how it's done. It's in response to an issue of the day, that arose within the early church (Acts 15:1-21):
Acts 15:22-35 (NIV) Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. With them they sent the following letter:
The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul — men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.
Simple, Darryl. Guided by the Holy Spirit, clear upholding of the godly standard, while keeping in context the culture of the times (food sacrificed to idols). The church overseers did two things, they spoke it. And they wrote it. Good luck!
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Post by fixit on Jun 14, 2024 19:17:11 GMT -5
Here's an example for Darryl Doland on how it's done. It's in response to an issue of the day, that arose within the early church (Acts 15:1-21): Acts 15:22-35 (NIV) Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul — men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord. Simple, Darryl. Guided by the Holy Spirit, clear upholding of the godly standard, while keeping in context the culture of the times (food sacrificed to idols). The church overseers did two things, they spoke it. And they wrote it. Good luck! They did three things: they consulted the whole church, they spoke it and they wrote it. Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26 It will not be so among you, but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave, 28 just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many.”
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Post by help on Jun 14, 2024 19:45:54 GMT -5
The Bible should never be the only source for guidance. Open to manipulation by anybody to justify their decision because of the false belief that the Bible is the supreme source of instruction.
Often a bit of common sense is the better way to go. Common sense is the basic level of practical knowledge and judgment that we all need to help us live in a reasonable and safe way.
Trying to keep the "Cat in the bag" policy never works, because when someone lets the cat out all hell breaks loose.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 14, 2024 20:34:59 GMT -5
I empathize with Darryl Doland's situation. It's quite simple. A crime is a crime and it is not the role of minister or family to deal with -- no matter who else thinks it is their business to deal with. Education is fine -- ministers and family can do that. But NONE OF THEM has the skills, authority, nor means to (1) investigate, (2) judge, (3) punish, and (4) distinguish between predator and one-time offender.
The Bible is not a constitution for a temporal society. Ministers are just that, "ministers", or counsellors -- to the innocent and to the guilty. A minister becomes compromised when he assumes the role of judge.
It's simple -- tell the police immediately.
Workers don't even have the skills to investigate appropriately -- period.
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Post by fixit on Jun 14, 2024 20:37:50 GMT -5
The Bible should never be the only source for guidance. Open to manipulation by anybody to justify their decision because of the false belief that the Bible is the supreme source of instruction. What was the only source of guidance before Bruergate?
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Post by help on Jun 14, 2024 21:06:55 GMT -5
The Bible should never be the only source for guidance. Open to manipulation by anybody to justify their decision because of the false belief that the Bible is the supreme source of instruction. What was the only source of guidance before Bruergate? The Bible, hence all the problems the 2x2 Church are having to cope with now. We all need the help of Professionals as well and until the 2x2 Church accepts that, their problems will never get sorted.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 14, 2024 21:21:16 GMT -5
The Bible should never be the only source for guidance. Open to manipulation by anybody to justify their decision because of the false belief that the Bible is the supreme source of instruction. What was the only source of guidance before Bruergate? Education - - ignorance about abuse in general abounds, and people tend to scoff at the education. It begins with parents, not the workers.
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Post by help on Jun 14, 2024 21:52:16 GMT -5
Spot on Bob, the Bible should never be the only source of information for help and guidance. Main stream Christian Ministers study and obtain a degree in Theology and use many sources of information in their study. That is the only way you can become a professional, as opposed to self taught amateurs. Being self taught is fraught with danger, not having the correct knowledge to solve the problem.
Robert H. Barrow, then commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps., uttered the famous phrase that “amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics.”
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Post by matisse on Jun 15, 2024 8:04:12 GMT -5
What was the only source of guidance before Bruergate? Education - - ignorance about abuse in general abounds, and people tend to scoff at the education. It begins with parents, not the workers. Parents are why the workers may be on the verge of losing Olympia Convention and half of Seattle.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 15, 2024 22:44:54 GMT -5
[reposted from the Queensland thread] For me, this was the biggest shocker: ~32:00 (Darryl Doland) I never did like the wording that says that you’re once a pedophile or once a CSA or whatever you want to call it, you always are - that's not true. The studies that they made, the studies were all on groups of individuals that had no dealings with the spirit of God and when God begins to deal with his people and there's a willingness in the heart of that person, there is a change, can be a change, and we think of these people that maybe a single incident, in what - 30 years, 40 years, 50 years or maybe even 10 years or five years and let the spirit of God work; we need to be very careful for them and the thought has just come the last couple weeks are we making a new level of victims and that we're saying “okay you can't come, you can't go,” we're victimizing this, we're making them victims of our decision in our guidelines; there has to be that guidance of the spirit of God…
I have so many questions about this... Has your track record proven that you can pick repeat offenders by the 'spirit of God'? When you have known about offenders, have you done anything effective with that information? People who are pedophiles are welcome to attend meetings but SO many over the years have been victimized for offenses like hair length, dress length, having the wrong job, having the "wrong spirit" by asking questions? Most atrociously, the csa victims themselves have been victimized for reporting.
Are you really saying 'God forbid we victimize pedophiles' ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? If the last few decades in the fellowship have proven anything, it is exactly this: the workers/overseers either cannot discern who has the "spirit of God", and/or have been completely unwilling to deal with known perpetrators.
The "worldly" evidence clearly shows that perps need constant accountability to stay straight. The stakes are too high to assume they are "fixed".
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 16, 2024 1:37:26 GMT -5
[reposted from the Queensland thread] For me, this was the biggest shocker: ~32:00 (Darryl Doland) I never did like the wording that says that you’re once a pedophile or once a CSA or whatever you want to call it, you always are - that's not true. The studies that they made, the studies were all on groups of individuals that had no dealings with the spirit of God and when God begins to deal with his people and there's a willingness in the heart of that person, there is a change, can be a change, and we think of these people that maybe a single incident, in what - 30 years, 40 years, 50 years or maybe even 10 years or five years and let the spirit of God work; we need to be very careful for them and the thought has just come the last couple weeks are we making a new level of victims and that we're saying “okay you can't come, you can't go,” we're victimizing this, we're making them victims of our decision in our guidelines; there has to be that guidance of the spirit of God…
I have so many questions about this... Has your track record proven that you can pick repeat offenders by the 'spirit of God'? When you have known about offenders, have you done anything effective with that information? People who are pedophiles are welcome to attend meetings but SO many over the years have been victimized for offenses like hair length, dress length, having the wrong job, having the "wrong spirit" by asking questions? Most atrociously, the csa victims themselves have been victimized for reporting.
Are you really saying 'God forbid we victimize pedophiles' ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? If the last few decades in the fellowship have proven anything, it is exactly this: the workers/overseers either cannot discern who has the "spirit of God", and/or have been completely unwilling to deal with known perpetrators.
The "worldly" evidence clearly shows that perps need constant accountability to stay straight. The stakes are too high to assume they are "fixed". This is/has been a problem -- who is a predator and who has just had a lapse in moral will? This problem should and can also be handled by law enforcement and the courts. I was personally involved with a case that the workers had advised the young lady's father to call the police. The young man pleaded guilty to statutory sexual seduction -- no intercourse, just petting, and spectacularly consensual, an engaged couple to boot. The judge was going to sentence him to probation, but at the request of the worker involved he was given a few months in jail. However, as soon as he was released from jail the girl's father harassed the probation officers and the courts with complaints about him that were continuously being unsubstantiated. They called the police on him because he'd gone to a meeting, and I had to be witness for him that he never went to the meeting but only dropped off an elderly lady and took her home after the meeting. I was reported to the police for disturbing the church with my presence, and I never went to meeting with any of them. It turned out that soon after he was let out on probation that the judge discharged his sentence (which NEVER happens), and the girl and her family were ordered not to attend any gathering or event without learning whether the young man would be there, and they were ordered never to bother the court again with the case. Now for the concerns: 1. It was not a worker style investigation. His whole adult life was reviewed and not a single other "victim" could be found. I believe that to be true. The worker was reported as naming another victim -- I happened to know that girl's parents so I asked them if they'd ever hear of that young man by name, and she had no idea who I was talking about. 2. The reporting to the police was NOT out of respect for the law. When it came time for the girl's family to follow the law, the workers refused to enforce it and the guy had to leave the state to be free to go to meetings as he pleased. The court was right. That young man met and married another fine young lady, had a family that are now all grown, has had a clean record since then or the whole world would have known about it - - - but the workers now have decided that he should not have a meeting in his home. One overseer of that state was seeing another man's wife for decades, and I've been told that another overseer of that state gambled away $100,000 of someone's money. The gospel of Christ is supposed to be one of forgiveness -- we're fortunate to live in a country where governments are responsible for punishing offenders because of the immoral manner that Christians end up administering justice.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 16, 2024 1:40:07 GMT -5
Education - - ignorance about abuse in general abounds, and people tend to scoff at the education. It begins with parents, not the workers. Parents are why the workers may be on the verge of losing Olympia Convention and half of Seattle. And Wally lives right there.
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Post by menatwork on Jun 16, 2024 2:48:13 GMT -5
I get the impression that the overseers and workers are running scared as they are rapidly losing control of the narrative. They thrive on spouting “worker speak” which when you analyse it is nothing more than a vain attempt to keep the sinking ship afloat. They are supposed to be Gods “true servants” however they demonstrate by their words and actions that they are far from this claim. They are scripturally bereft and act more like the bad shepherds described in Ezekiel 34.
To start to wind back the guidelines they had written themselves is the height of hypocrisy. They are fearful that with so many people leaving and conventions being cancelled that they are losing support and are starting to panic leading to the ridiculous comments made and highlighted by Elizabeth.
Perpetrators are not guided by the spirit of God and to suggest otherwise is to not understand what Jesus said in John 16…
“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” John 16:13-14 ESV
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Post by matisse on Jun 16, 2024 3:45:56 GMT -5
Parents are why the workers may be on the verge of losing Olympia Convention and half of Seattle. And Wally lives right there. allegedly ;)
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 16, 2024 7:44:09 GMT -5
This is/has been a problem -- who is a predator and who has just had a lapse in moral will? This problem should and can also be handled by law enforcement and the courts. I was personally involved with a case that the workers had advised the young lady's father to call the police. The young man pleaded guilty to statutory sexual seduction -- no intercourse, just petting, and spectacularly consensual, an engaged couple to boot. The judge was going to sentence him to probation, but at the request of the worker involved he was given a few months in jail. However, as soon as he was released from jail the girl's father harassed the probation officers and the courts with complaints about him that were continuously being unsubstantiated. They called the police on him because he'd gone to a meeting, and I had to be witness for him that he never went to the meeting but only dropped off an elderly lady and took her home after the meeting. I was reported to the police for disturbing the church with my presence, and I never went to meeting with any of them. It turned out that soon after he was let out on probation that the judge discharged his sentence (which NEVER happens), and the girl and her family were ordered not to attend any gathering or event without learning whether the young man would be there, and they were ordered never to bother the court again with the case. Now for the concerns: 1. It was not a worker style investigation. His whole adult life was reviewed and not a single other "victim" could be found. I believe that to be true. The worker was reported as naming another victim -- I happened to know that girl's parents so I asked them if they'd ever hear of that young man by name, and she had no idea who I was talking about. 2. The reporting to the police was NOT out of respect for the law. When it came time for the girl's family to follow the law, the workers refused to enforce it and the guy had to leave the state to be free to go to meetings as he pleased. The court was right. That young man met and married another fine young lady, had a family that are now all grown, has had a clean record since then or the whole world would have known about it - - - but the workers now have decided that he should not have a meeting in his home. One overseer of that state was seeing another man's wife for decades, and I've been told that another overseer of that state gambled away $100,000 of someone's money. The gospel of Christ is supposed to be one of forgiveness -- we're fortunate to live in a country where governments are responsible for punishing offenders because of the immoral manner that Christians end up administering justice. What a terrible story! Sounds like the law being weaponised for personal gain in this one. Also obviously not a perp - this was his fiance(?). I'm assuming laws regarding age / age differential caught him out. Yes, the hypocrisy of what the workers deny and what they approve and what goes on behind the scenes really takes your breath away.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 16, 2024 7:47:34 GMT -5
Don't know if those in the US know the answer to this, but in Australia churches are insured, including for public liability, csa etc. To be insured, it is conditional on having Child Safety / vulnerable person guidelines in place. If we didn't, we simply couldn't be insured at all.
Is this the case in the US? I'm assuming workers in places like America need their own insurance to rent public halls? They do in Australia.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 16, 2024 18:37:16 GMT -5
This is/has been a problem -- who is a predator and who has just had a lapse in moral will? This problem should and can also be handled by law enforcement and the courts. I was personally involved with a case that the workers had advised the young lady's father to call the police. The young man pleaded guilty to statutory sexual seduction -- no intercourse, just petting, and spectacularly consensual, an engaged couple to boot. The judge was going to sentence him to probation, but at the request of the worker involved he was given a few months in jail. However, as soon as he was released from jail the girl's father harassed the probation officers and the courts with complaints about him that were continuously being unsubstantiated. They called the police on him because he'd gone to a meeting, and I had to be witness for him that he never went to the meeting but only dropped off an elderly lady and took her home after the meeting. I was reported to the police for disturbing the church with my presence, and I never went to meeting with any of them. It turned out that soon after he was let out on probation that the judge discharged his sentence (which NEVER happens), and the girl and her family were ordered not to attend any gathering or event without learning whether the young man would be there, and they were ordered never to bother the court again with the case. Now for the concerns: 1. It was not a worker style investigation. His whole adult life was reviewed and not a single other "victim" could be found. I believe that to be true. The worker was reported as naming another victim -- I happened to know that girl's parents so I asked them if they'd ever hear of that young man by name, and she had no idea who I was talking about. 2. The reporting to the police was NOT out of respect for the law. When it came time for the girl's family to follow the law, the workers refused to enforce it and the guy had to leave the state to be free to go to meetings as he pleased. The court was right. That young man met and married another fine young lady, had a family that are now all grown, has had a clean record since then or the whole world would have known about it - - - but the workers now have decided that he should not have a meeting in his home. One overseer of that state was seeing another man's wife for decades, and I've been told that another overseer of that state gambled away $100,000 of someone's money. The gospel of Christ is supposed to be one of forgiveness -- we're fortunate to live in a country where governments are responsible for punishing offenders because of the immoral manner that Christians end up administering justice. What a terrible story! Sounds like the law being weaponised for personal gain in this one. Also obviously not a perp - this was his fiance(?). I'm assuming laws regarding age / age differential caught him out. Yes, the hypocrisy of what the workers deny and what they approve and what goes on behind the scenes really takes your breath away. Yes, finace(e)s. I've been told that the girl and her mother had been driving around town to see what kind of homes they could buy when they were married. And further to the story -- I was in the court (she didn't recognize me) the day she appeared and had her accusations about him stalking her soundly debunked by the probation authorities. Outside the room, when she was ordered to not go near him again, she was crying on her attorney's shoulder because she couldn't get to talk to him. (12 months after his arrest) Even more ridiculous -- she was at that time accompanied by a husband, and in late stages of a pregnancy. And for anyone's information -- I was kicked off the ex-2x2 site for expressing sympathy for this man's situation.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 16, 2024 18:39:49 GMT -5
Don't know if those in the US know the answer to this, but in Australia churches are insured, including for public liability, csa etc. To be insured, it is conditional on having Child Safety / vulnerable person guidelines in place. If we didn't, we simply couldn't be insured at all. Is this the case in the US? I'm assuming workers in places like America need their own insurance to rent public halls? They do in Australia. I've never heard of this kind of insurance.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on Jun 18, 2024 15:59:32 GMT -5
Don't know if those in the US know the answer to this, but in Australia churches are insured, including for public liability, csa etc. To be insured, it is conditional on having Child Safety / vulnerable person guidelines in place. If we didn't, we simply couldn't be insured at all. Is this the case in the US? I'm assuming workers in places like America need their own insurance to rent public halls? They do in Australia. I don’t know for sure as I have been out of the loop for some time, I don’t think the workers have insurance for this. And it was common for the friends in various areas to be the ones to help find places for gospel meetings and pay for the rental. It seemed like they would sometimes use old Grange Halls. Those grange halls were also used a lot for 4H meetings, community events, etc. Lately, there have been several venues that have cancelled gospel meetings/special meetings in the US and Canada when they were notified of the FBI investigation because they didn’t want to be held liable for the possibility of crimes being committed on their property.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 19, 2024 9:36:25 GMT -5
How many would "half of Seattle" amount to??
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2024 15:50:38 GMT -5
Do they really think they can afford to lose more people? After all it's not like they go out into the world anymore and try to recruit new members. They depend on the friends family and friends to profess from what I've been hearing. So don't they realize that not putting in guidelines will lose even more people? They depend on the friends for their room and board and those people are dwindling daily because they aren't seeing any kinds of protection being put in place to protect their children or grandchildren.
Overseers are going to be held accountable, it's just a matter of time. Dale Shultz aided and abetted these abusers in a country where there is no statute of limitations. He's been keeping a pretty low profile. But he's now in articles and documentaries where he will be brought to the attention of the FBI investigation. All of the overseers are being investigated. Do they honestly think that moving abusers around isn't going to have consequences?
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 19, 2024 23:45:55 GMT -5
These are not my words, but said by someone else, and I think he has summed the whole Workers Staff meeting up well.
You are listening to people who have 2 issues:
1) they are in very deep water and have zero idea how to function rationally to arrive at a logical operational conclusion.
2) because they insist on conflating issues (Caesar, god, law, biblical, interpretation, etc) they will continue twisting on their own sword.
They are philosophically, ideologically and operationally incapable of reconciling the enormity of the issues with the law or human compassion. And frankly because they have always operated on the fringes of society, with zero transparency into finances or hierarchy, they have no one with the experience or will to lead them out of this morass.
If you are hoping they can find their moral compass and do the right thing, you’re setting yourself up for a very long series of disappointments.
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2024 13:05:21 GMT -5
These are not my words, but said by someone else, and I think he has summed the whole Workers Staff meeting up well. You are listening to people who have 2 issues: 1) they are in very deep water and have zero idea how to function rationally to arrive at a logical operational conclusion. 2) because they insist on conflating issues (Caesar, god, law, biblical, interpretation, etc) they will continue twisting on their own sword. They are philosophically, ideologically and operationally incapable of reconciling the enormity of the issues with the law or human compassion. And frankly because they have always operated on the fringes of society, with zero transparency into finances or hierarchy, they have no one with the experience or will to lead them out of this morass. If you are hoping they can find their moral compass and do the right thing, you’re setting yourself up for a very long series of disappointments. There is no hope that things will change as long as they think they know better than the experts. They think that they are spiritually superior to the rest of the world so therefore they no what's better over every other expert out there.
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