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Post by mod7 on May 27, 2024 8:33:40 GMT -5
The link below is to the only known official website for the 2x2 church. The website is managed under the auspices of the workers (ministry) of the 2x2 church fellowship in Australia and New Zealand. While the website omits any indication of the church group it pertains to, that church is variously known as the 'no-name church', the 'Truth', the 2x2 church, church of the Friends and Workers, or (erroneously) the Cooneyites. Distinctive features of the 2x2 church include meetings in the home, a homeless 2X2 ministry called 'The Work', annual conventions on farms and a fellowship with no name. This is the church of Rob Newman, Doyle Smith, Merlin Affleck, Ira Hobbs, Willis Propp, Leslie White, Dean Bruer, George Walker, John Hardie, Willie Jamieson, Jack Carroll etc. The 2x2 church fellowship was founded by William Irvine as a breakaway from the Faith Mission in 1897. Many professing people feel it is a continuation of the New Testament meetings and ministry, and most workers also feel 'The Truth' is exclusively the only true/right church. The new website: ausnzinfo.comA corporate apology after a commission of enquiry, government style? This, to me, smacks of ticking the CSA apology box, and moving on. Too bad about how this all has affected everyone else. No acknowledgement of the lies told, and no apology to Graham Thompson who is owed one. ausnzinfo.comYou are right that Graham Thompson deserves an apology. However, it needs to be given in a different way than via this website which focuses on CSA. A reminder, Graham felt compelled to leave the ministry but it was for issues/reasons far far broader than CSA. A personal apology still needs to be made to Graham that covers the whole shebang. Yes, but I'm afraid it won't happen.
I will do an SEO diagnosis on the site over the next few days to work out how it can be found. I suspect it's designed to not be found, and relies on it's presence being passed via messaging or email. I'm not seeing certain keywords that make it visible to someone searching. There was a guy on here, stevenz (I know who he is, but won't advertise it) who shared all the correspondence between Graham and the powers that be. It would have made a web site on its own! I am wondering if the timing of this was to coincide with Special Meetings so that they can avoid saying anything, which would be the ideal forum. The web site smacks of lawyers and things being said in such a way as to not invite a class action.
Anyone accessing this website would not know what group it is referring to unless they were a 2x2!! Talk about secrecy…….I guess it is difficult to put a name to the website when it has been produced by “the church without a name.” Weird stuff😳
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Post by mod7 on May 27, 2024 8:54:56 GMT -5
Now let the Google crawler ("Googlebot") do its work. Official 2x2 website Worker ministry Homeless 2x2 ministry Fellowship meetings in the home William Irvine church ausnzinfo.com
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Post by snow on May 27, 2024 17:17:49 GMT -5
It does have a feedback button. Ask for the names of the advisory committee possibly?
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Post by menatwork on May 27, 2024 17:37:09 GMT -5
It does have a feedback button. Ask for the names of the advisory committee possibly? In a letter dated 18 August 2023 the overseers wrote….. “The identity of advisory group members will remain confidential, and they will not be providing direct engagement with the broader fellowship. Member confidentiality is important for the protection of survivors within the group, and to enable the group to focus on this important work in an impartial manner without external pressure or distraction. We will be looking at mechanisms to provide additional support to survivors in future.” The overseers are continuing to operate in secret with no accountability and it appears that this will not be changing. It is all about maintaining control of the narrative and not being questioned for the way they are operating.
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Post by snow on May 27, 2024 17:39:27 GMT -5
It does have a feedback button. Ask for the names of the advisory committee possibly? In a letter dated 18 August 2023 the overseers wrote….. “The identity of advisory group members will remain confidential, and they will not be providing direct engagement with the broader fellowship. Member confidentiality is important for the protection of survivors within the group, and to enable the group to focus on this important work in an impartial manner without external pressure or distraction. We will be looking at mechanisms to provide additional support to survivors in future.” The overseers are continuing to operate in secret with no accountability and it appears that this will not be changing. It is all about maintaining control of the narrative and not being questioned for the way they are operating. Ahhh of course. It's all about protecting survivors. If we saw more concern in general for survivors I might be more inclined to believe it.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 27, 2024 18:06:07 GMT -5
In a letter dated 18 August 2023 the overseers wrote….. “The identity of advisory group members will remain confidential, and they will not be providing direct engagement with the broader fellowship. Member confidentiality is important for the protection of survivors within the group, and to enable the group to focus on this important work in an impartial manner without external pressure or distraction. We will be looking at mechanisms to provide additional support to survivors in future.” The overseers are continuing to operate in secret with no accountability and it appears that this will not be changing. It is all about maintaining control of the narrative and not being questioned for the way they are operating. Ahhh of course. It's all about protecting survivors. If we saw more concern in general for survivors I might be more inclined to believe it. Protecting the survivors has always been their excuse for not disclosing the predators' identity. It's just a pseudonym for "don't rock the boat".
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Post by aussie22 on May 28, 2024 8:29:05 GMT -5
We heard tonight about this new web site and we are wondering if everyone received the apology letter personally, which was addressed to all who are, or have been, a part of the fellowship. It says if we wish to contact them we must submit, our first name, our last name, our email and our message. They want us to be transparent, yet the advisory group names are hidden, so we don't know who they are. We think this is terribly unfair when how do we know if we can trust them. Remembering our trust in these people have been broken in the past. It seems all one sided, with the workers still wanting the full control in the face of all that has happened, the lies, blame and the coverups. How can they be the solution when they have been the problem?
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Post by Pragmatic on May 28, 2024 15:56:04 GMT -5
We heard tonight about this new web site and we are wondering if everyone received the apology letter personally, which was addressed to all who are, or have been, a part of the fellowship. It says if we wish to contact them we must submit, our first name, our last name, our email and our message. They want us to be transparent, yet the advisory group names are hidden, so we don't know who they are. We think this is terribly unfair when how do we know if we can trust them. Remembering our trust in these people have been broken in the past. It seems all one sided, with the workers still wanting the full control in the face of all that has happened, the lies, blame and the coverups. How can they be the solution when they have been the problem? I have sent feedback in this regard to the faceless bureaucrats, via the website.
They are sorry more that they got caught, than out of genuine victim concern, otherwise this would have been done years ago. And what about an apology regarding their worker cohorts that they report to worldwide who are still moving perpetrators around the world, in particular Africa, South America, Asia.
And in the links, they have ignored AFTT and TBTANZ who have provided a professional hotline and counseling options, and victims know who they are talking to. But no, the church seems to want to be in control, and sideline the groups who have been victim focused and provide full and meaningful assistance to victims. They obviously think they have the monopoly on truth and are the sole arbiters of it.
The website name is meaningless, and to date there are no keywords from it appearing in the Google rankings.
Like the church, it is designed to be nameless, hidden except to the known few, and is merely a 'tick the box' exercise for the Australian Redress Scheme to see if they can get partial admission to it. They were refused full admission, after promising that it was about to happen, so are in panic mode.
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Post by mod7 on May 28, 2024 17:03:46 GMT -5
The website name is meaningless, and to date there are no keywords from it appearing in the Google rankings. Very shortly if not already, a google search on "Official 2x2 website" should readily find this TMB thread with its link to the "Nameless Website" belonging to the "Nameless Church". Suggestions for other relevant keywords and how to increase google transparency of TMB efforts to advertise the Nameless Church Website will be appreciated.
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Post by mod7 on May 28, 2024 17:08:17 GMT -5
The website name is meaningless, and to date there are no keywords from it appearing in the Google rankings. Like the church, it is designed to be nameless, hidden except to the known few, and is merely a 'tick the box' exercise for the Australian Redress Scheme to see if they can get partial admission to it. They were refused full admission, after promising that it was about to happen, so are in panic mode.
This if true is a shocking indictment of the leadership thinking and motives behind this Australia/New Zealand project. And it rings true. A project with faceless advisors and a nameless website. A sister thread for the Australian National Redress Scheme will be attached here.
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Post by xna on May 28, 2024 17:45:28 GMT -5
The website name is meaningless, and to date there are no keywords from it appearing in the Google rankings. Very shortly if not already, a google search on "Official 2x2 website" should readily find this TMB thread with its link to the "Nameless Website" belonging to the "Nameless Church". Suggestions for other relevant keywords and how to increase google transparency of TMB efforts to advertise the Nameless Church Website will be appreciated. The owner of the website could quickly make it searchable if they wanted to, by adding it on the google search consoleThe more posts with the words " Official 2x2 website ausnzinfo.com" will help it show up on google.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 28, 2024 18:38:02 GMT -5
Very shortly if not already, a google search on "Official 2x2 website" should readily find this TMB thread with its link to the "Nameless Website" belonging to the "Nameless Church". Suggestions for other relevant keywords and how to increase google transparency of TMB efforts to advertise the Nameless Church Website will be appreciated. The owner of the website could quickly make it searchable if they wanted to, by adding it on the google search consoleThe more posts with the words " Official 2x2 website ausnzinfo.com" will help it show up on google. I suspect they don't want to. Instead, they want it to behave more like an Intranet, but without security admin. I note though, that it is an https site, so who knows what their long term intentions are.
Right now I am reminded of a memo inside Boeing, "Designed by clowns, supervised by monkeys"
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Post by BobWilliston on May 29, 2024 1:30:44 GMT -5
We heard tonight about this new web site and we are wondering if everyone received the apology letter personally, which was addressed to all who are, or have been, a part of the fellowship. It says if we wish to contact them we must submit, our first name, our last name, our email and our message. They want us to be transparent, yet the advisory group names are hidden, so we don't know who they are. We think this is terribly unfair when how do we know if we can trust them. Remembering our trust in these people have been broken in the past. It seems all one sided, with the workers still wanting the full control in the face of all that has happened, the lies, blame and the coverups. How can they be the solution when they have been the problem? I have sent feedback in this regard to the faceless bureaucrats, via the website. They are sorry more that they got caught, than out of genuine victim concern, otherwise this would have been done years ago. And what about an apology regarding their worker cohorts that they report to worldwide who are still moving perpetrators around the world, in particular Africa, South America, Asia.
And in the links, they have ignored AFTT and TBTANZ who have provided a professional hotline and counseling options, and victims know who they are talking to. But no, the church seems to want to be in control, and sideline the groups who have been victim focused and provide full and meaningful assistance to victims. They obviously think they have the monopoly on truth and are the sole arbiters of it. The website name is meaningless, and to date there are no keywords from it appearing in the Google rankings. Like the church, it is designed to be nameless, hidden except to the known few, and is merely a 'tick the box' exercise for the Australian Redress Scheme to see if they can get partial admission to it. They were refused full admission, after promising that it was about to happen, so are in panic mode.
You can normally depend on anything seemingly official from the workers to have a control mechanism somewhere in the details -- it's about power, and secrecy and anonymity are attempts to control public opinion. It's an attempt, of course, but when secrets get out they are hot media items.
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Post by aussie22 on May 29, 2024 5:37:02 GMT -5
Thank you to all those that have taken the time to give us feedback on this topic, which is most helpful. We feel it would not be wise to share anything with people that do not share their name. How can one trust who they might be and what they might do with the information that is shared in confidence. When all this came out we did have a fleeting moment of hope that they might turn over a new leaf and at least attempt to right the wrongs but now all hopes are dashed to the ground as it seems they are only doing the things to appear that they are being proactive in putting policies in place to cover their wrongs.
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Post by fixit on May 29, 2024 22:08:35 GMT -5
Thank you to all those that have taken the time to give us feedback on this topic, which is most helpful. We feel it would not be wise to share anything with people that do not share their name. How can one trust who they might be and what they might do with the information that is shared in confidence. When all this came out we did have a fleeting moment of hope that they might turn over a new leaf and at least attempt to right the wrongs but now all hopes are dashed to the ground as it seems they are only doing the things to appear that they are being proactive in putting policies in place to cover their wrongs. You mentioned the word "trust". We were raised to trust workers and friends, and to value that trust very highly. Sadly our trust has been betrayed. Trust is gone, and many of us have been in deep mourning as a result of the destruction of trust. While some workers and friends are in mourning, others are vehemently defending the system that has fostered so much sexual, psychological and emotional abuse. Media reported a worker saying recently “ We have no affiliation to a church … we just want people to get to know Jesus.” That's a great approach going forward: don't get bogged down with affiliation to a church, just get to know Jesus. The more I get to know Jesus, the less attracted I am to affiliation to a church (as in a religious enterprise).
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 29, 2024 22:57:11 GMT -5
Thank you to all those that have taken the time to give us feedback on this topic, which is most helpful. We feel it would not be wise to share anything with people that do not share their name. How can one trust who they might be and what they might do with the information that is shared in confidence. When all this came out we did have a fleeting moment of hope that they might turn over a new leaf and at least attempt to right the wrongs but now all hopes are dashed to the ground as it seems they are only doing the things to appear that they are being proactive in putting policies in place to cover their wrongs. You mentioned the word "trust". We were raised to trust workers and friends, and to value that trust very highly. Sadly our trust has been betrayed. Trust is gone, and many of us have been in deep mourning as a result of the destruction of trust. While some workers and friends are in mourning, others are vehemently defending the system that has fostered so much sexual, psychological and emotional abuse. Media reported a worker saying recently “ We have no affiliation to a church … we just want people to get to know Jesus.” That's a great approach going forward: don't get bogged down with affiliation to a church, just get to know Jesus. The more I get to know Jesus, the less attracted I am to affiliation to a church (as in a religious enterprise). What you are saying is more in line with Faith Mission teachings.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 29, 2024 23:19:14 GMT -5
Another disingenuous statement. She is a minister in the church. Her overseer allows himself to be quoted as a spokesman from the church.
Of course some will say she means no affiliation to a known orthodox Christian church, but she chose not to say that. A number of her cohorts have said similar things, like "just a group of like minded Christians, etc'
They're in a hole right now, but they keep on digging!
To them the words, 'work out your own salvation' actually mean, agree with us, belong to our church, and do as we inherently imply. If you don't, then you will be told. Don't dare work out something which is different. The church does not want people walking in the forest feeling close to God, to the exclusion of being under the control of the workers.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 29, 2024 23:27:09 GMT -5
Another disingenuous statement. She is a minister in the church. Her overseer allows himself to be quoted as a spokesman from the church. Of course some will say she means no affiliation to a known orthodox Christian church, but she chose not to say that. A number of her cohorts have said similar things, like "just a group of like minded Christians, etc' They're in a hole right now, but they keep on digging! To them the words, 'work out your own salvation' actually mean, agree with us, belong to our church, and do as we inherently imply. If you don't, then you will be told. Don't dare work out something which is different. The church does not want people walking in the forest feeling close to God, to the exclusion of being under the control of the workers. Interesting last paragraph. Forests provide shelter and sustenance. A house can be built from a forest. Food can be gathered from a forest. The workers and religion in general provide neither.
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Post by aussie22 on May 30, 2024 7:05:37 GMT -5
Hi Fixit,
Thanks for your message, we always value your input.
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Post by help on May 30, 2024 11:45:33 GMT -5
How to Recognise a Cult.
Absolute authoritarianism without accountability. Zero tolerance for criticism or questions. Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget. Unreasonable fears about the outside World that often involve evil conspiracies and persecutions.
This fits the 2x2 Church and it is an impossibility to change the culture of a cult. Anybody who does not like a cult environment, for their own peace of mind are better off to leave.
Before we acquire great power we must acquire wisdom to use it well. Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 30, 2024 13:15:59 GMT -5
I knew a chap who used to say he felt closer to God when walking the Waiwakaiho track than he did in the meeting. The workers would not like that. Waiwhakaiho is the correct spelling. It means spiritual umbilical cord, or small crab used as shark bait. Go figure. I guess context would be everything. Without the h it apparently means sinking vessel.
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Post by nonrunner on Jun 1, 2024 15:39:45 GMT -5
I have a feeling that no matter what they did or said now, people on here would not be happy.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 1, 2024 16:15:11 GMT -5
I have a feeling that no matter what they did or said now, people on here would not be happy. That's usually what happens when people are lied to. There is nothing to trust now.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 1, 2024 16:45:20 GMT -5
I have a feeling that no matter what they did or said now, people on here would not be happy. You sound like an apologist for the church.
When I first heard about the site, my initial thoughts were positive.
But on analysis, found it full of holes, and for a lot of reasons, and I am qualified to make that statement.
At least on this site, www.wanidakadvocacy.org/ there are names and also a link to an "outside organisation", Advocates for the Truth. But like the Australian/NZ one, it is designed to not be found easily.
People who have children that are victims, victims themselves, and some of those that have had experience with some of the Overseers who have put their names to https://ausnzinfo,com are extremely unhappy. And their voices are being ignored, and I know of one overseer who will not pick up the phone, because "it disturbs his peace". (Told to me by a victim's mother)
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 1, 2024 18:12:28 GMT -5
If you want to know what is happening, the best account is chapter 20 in the following book: Alberta, Tim. [The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory. ISPN: 978-0-06-322688-3
Same model as used by the Southern Baptist Denomination.
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Post by bfvernon on Jun 1, 2024 18:49:33 GMT -5
Use the feedback button to send them emails. Who cares if “it disturbs their peace”! I’m sending them an email at least 3 times a week.
“Peace” - how disgusting! They just have to live in their little delusional bubble and not deal with any reality on any front. However, the Judgement Day is coming ….
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Post by nonrunner on Jun 2, 2024 4:09:55 GMT -5
I have a feeling that no matter what they did or said now, people on here would not be happy. You sound like an apologist for the church.
When I first heard about the site, my initial thoughts were positive.
But on analysis, found it full of holes, and for a lot of reasons, and I am qualified to make that statement.
At least on this site, www.wanidakadvocacy.org/ there are names and also a link to an "outside organisation", Advocates for the Truth. But like the Australian/NZ one, it is designed to not be found easily.
People who have children that are victims, victims themselves, and some of those that have had experience with some of the Overseers who have put their names to https://ausnzinfo,com are extremely unhappy. And their voices are being ignored, and I know of one overseer who will not pick up the phone, because "it disturbs his peace". (Told to me by a victim's mother)
No - not an apologist. I am just a person acknowledging that a real effort has been made and I applaud that. Interesting that you think you are qualified to judge something to 'full of holes'. I dont think there is a right or wrong on this one. What one person is happy with - another wont be. People say that their voices are being ignored but that is only because they want something different to what is being delivered. Have you thought that there are probably just as many people that are very happy with what has been done with this site. You will never please all the people all of the time, so why bother trying. The advisory group has come in for a lot of flak. I personally don't like the fact that they are anonymous but: Everyone would have to agree that to have some victims on the panel is a good thing. I can imagine the uproar if there hadn't been. The victims only agree to go on there is they can remain anonymous. What to do when they are meant to be all about supporting victims?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 3, 2024 21:22:42 GMT -5
I have a feeling that no matter what they did or said now, people on here would not be happy. There could be some truth to this statement. But let's be honest - this website is pathetic is its anonimity with no pretense of any form of transparency. Nobody is going to come across this website if actually searching for such a site pertaining to the 2x2s. You need to be in the know, and have special insider knowledge. Not even MEMBERS of this group would be able to readily identify it. Personally I am extremely disappointed in it. It continues to obfuscate EVERYTHING about the group, and contains no more information than could not be obtained from any general listing in the phone book pertaining to reporting of abuse. The only concession is a vague "feedback" email address - the faces and names and identities behind this email remain cloaked in secrecy. What if you are actually reporting to one of your abusers unknowingly? My own church's abuse website contains addresses, phone numbers and names of those to whom you will be reporting. It can be easily found online by members of the denomination. Let's look at the facts: This website contains absolutely NO identifying information except for a few first names and surnames (thank you for at least including names, but they are still not identified by church, church rank or contact information). Unless a person in the group knows exactly who the overseers are, how are these people readily identifiable? Which states and countries are each responsible for? Where is the publicly available company listing that shows who is current elder/head elder/worker/overseer within the group? The website completely avoids any form of public identity / association / acknowledgement that this is an established worldwide exclusive sect / denomination in its own right. Even the name suggests this group is limited to Aus & NZ. Who is "our fellowship"? Look at the Advisory Group page. This website is effectively speaking on behalf of "Australia and New Zealand". Words fail me for how ridiculous this truly is. "A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody" - Thomas Paine If they won't identify themselves with a name, at least be halfway honest and refer to it as "the fellowship of two-by-two ministers without a home, and meetings in the home, which officially takes no name".
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