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Post by Admin on May 23, 2024 0:27:15 GMT -5
Sunday gone was Pentecost Sunday (50 days after Easter). In UK we called it Whitsun.
I wonder how many F&W worshippers remembered or celebrated what Pentecost means for us Christians today?
I've heard the argument often in various places I've lived that "we" (meaning the 2x2 church) don't celebrate special days, because "every day is special and time for us to remember God's blessings"! Well enough, if we do remember with thanks all the special gifts (and times of the year associated with them) that God has given us.
But do we remember and celebrate the gift behind Pentecost, is that gift living and active in our Christian lives on a daily basis? So easy to forget, to not be grateful, and in forgetting to not use the gift and power given us as believers "in Christ".
We New Testament believers in Christ have the special privilege of ALL having received the Holy Spirit, and He is with us (indwelling us) every day of our Christian lives. Scripture is abundantly clear on this:
Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession — to the praise of his glory.
John 7:38-39 "Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
If we didn't remember Jesus' gift of the Holy Spirit to us believers last Sunday, then let's truly not just remember that greatest of gifts each day going forward, but commit to prayerfully yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives.
I believe a lot of the present problems in our church would be solved by such personal commitment.
"The Holy Spirit is the gust that can unsettle and disquiet. It is the movement of the spirit that can rearrange the landscape of the heart. It is that moving force, the insistent whisper, the part of us that cannot say no. It's the godly get-up-and-go that moves our lives for others. It is the breath of God. It is divine love."
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 596
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Post by magpies39plus on May 26, 2024 20:12:16 GMT -5
They are not interested I am afraid Admin".. Regardless to the dates given us it was the most important event after the resurrection and Jesus taken up. He returned as the Spirit (Holy) of God, completing God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.... to dwell within the hearts and lives of those who believe/have Faith in Him.. The everlasting God.. Magpie
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Post by Pragmatic on May 26, 2024 20:16:35 GMT -5
Sunday gone was Pentecost Sunday (50 days after Easter). In UK we called it Whitsun. I wonder how many F&W worshippers remembered or celebrated what Pentecost means for us Christians today? I've heard the argument often in various places I've lived that "we" (meaning the 2x2 church) don't celebrate special days, because "every day is special and time for us to remember God's blessings"! Well enough, if we do remember with thanks all the special gifts (and times of the year associated with them) that God has given us. But do we remember and celebrate the gift behind Pentecost, is that gift living and active in our Christian lives on a daily basis? So easy to forget, to not be grateful, and in forgetting to not use the gift and power given us as believers "in Christ". We New Testament believers in Christ have the special privilege of ALL having received the Holy Spirit, and He is with us (indwelling us) every day of our Christian lives. Scripture is abundantly clear on this: Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession — to the praise of his glory. John 7:38-39 "Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. If we didn't remember Jesus' gift of the Holy Spirit to us believers last Sunday, then let's truly not just remember that greatest of gifts each day going forward, but commit to prayerfully yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives. I believe a lot of the present problems in our church would be solved by such personal commitment. "The Holy Spirit is the gust that can unsettle and disquiet. It is the movement of the spirit that can rearrange the landscape of the heart. It is that moving force, the insistent whisper, the part of us that cannot say no. It's the godly get-up-and-go that moves our lives for others. It is the breath of God. It is divine love."Not sure that there's anything I can disagree with here.
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Post by verna on May 27, 2024 16:28:10 GMT -5
Sunday gone was Pentecost Sunday (50 days after Easter). In UK we called it Whitsun. I wonder how many F&W worshippers remembered or celebrated what Pentecost means for us Christians today? I've heard the argument often in various places I've lived that "we" (meaning the 2x2 church) don't celebrate special days, because "every day is special and time for us to remember God's blessings"! Well enough, if we do remember with thanks all the special gifts (and times of the year associated with them) that God has given us. But do we remember and celebrate the gift behind Pentecost, is that gift living and active in our Christian lives on a daily basis? So easy to forget, to not be grateful, and in forgetting to not use the gift and power given us as believers "in Christ". We New Testament believers in Christ have the special privilege of ALL having received the Holy Spirit, and He is with us (indwelling us) every day of our Christian lives. Scripture is abundantly clear on this: Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession — to the praise of his glory. John 7:38-39 "Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. If we didn't remember Jesus' gift of the Holy Spirit to us believers last Sunday, then let's truly not just remember that greatest of gifts each day going forward, but commit to prayerfully yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives. I believe a lot of the present problems in our church would be solved by such personal commitment. "The Holy Spirit is the gust that can unsettle and disquiet. It is the movement of the spirit that can rearrange the landscape of the heart. It is that moving force, the insistent whisper, the part of us that cannot say no. It's the godly get-up-and-go that moves our lives for others. It is the breath of God. It is divine love."Curious Admin - has this been your experience? Do you think they were speaking poetically? Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
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Post by bendle on May 27, 2024 18:16:43 GMT -5
My Welsh grandfather was brought up going to chapel, (Welsh chapel mainly Methodist -ish) and clearly knew all about the various Christian occasions/holidays/feast etc as occasionally he'd mention them in passing but never so as to prompt conversation or discussion about them. My Welsh great aunt who attended Church in Wales (Anglican) in Newtown Powys would openly talk about it all as obviously they were all celebrated in her church. It always puzzled me as as a child as to why we knew/learned literally nothing of any of it when we were supposedly a christian church also? And yet there are workers who will delve deeply into the technical aspects of the after death process (limbo etc) at a funeral (George da Santos) which probably isn't the best time for a technical sermon on that particular subject...
But we never learned or were taught anything of significance from the bible other than very simple common worker themes and messages about obedience, place, sacrifice etc; we were supposed to just absorb everything and just know it or it just be revealed to us or whatever??
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Post by Admin on May 27, 2024 18:47:37 GMT -5
My Welsh grandfather was brought up going to chapel, (Welsh chapel mainly Methodist -ish) and clearly knew all about the various Christian occasions/holidays/feast etc as occasionally he'd mention them in passing but never so as to prompt conversation or discussion about them. My Welsh great aunt who attended Church in Wales (Anglican) in Newtown Powys would openly talk about it all as obviously they were all celebrated in her church. It always puzzled me as as a child as to why we knew/learned literally nothing of any of it when we were supposedly a christian church also? And yet there are workers who will delve deeply into the technical aspects of the after death process (limbo etc) at a funeral (George da Santos) which probably isn't the best time for a technical sermon on that particular subject... But we never learned or were taught anything of significance from the bible other than very simple common worker themes and messages about obedience, place, sacrifice etc; we were supposed to just absorb everything and just know it or it just be revealed to us or whatever?? Aah dear bendle (my Welsh cousin, perhaps??!) thanks for that! The background and heritage of the friends in UK is so very different from how the workers and their church has evolved in North America. The F&W fellowship in UK, certainly in the early days of the fellowship (those early Irish, Scottish & Welsh workers) had much greater understanding of scripture than what has evolved elsewhere. And the Christian traditions of the various churches (Methodist, Presbyterian etc.) were strong pointers to deeper learning. At some point, a group of early workers decided collectively and it became the culture, to eschew all church traditions and thereby establish an identity separate from all other denominations (and in so doing, we developed a pride in being "different"). Words of Jesus (Matthew 22:29) "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." I suspect he would say same to us collectively today
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Post by bendle on May 28, 2024 2:29:14 GMT -5
Well that'd be a turnup for the books if you were one of my cousins! I have lots of cousins.... I'm consistently staggered by how little the majority of the friends know about Christianity in general and the bible in particular to be honest.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 28, 2024 3:10:51 GMT -5
Well that'd be a turnup for the books if you were one of my cousins! I have lots of cousins.... I'm consistently staggered by how little the majority of the friends know about Christianity in general and the bible in particular to be honest. Down under, workers discourage people from learning Bible or early church history.
I remember telling a worker that I'd seen some interesting books on the early Christian History in the library. Next meeting, "Books? Burn them. It's the only light you'll get from them." Ignoramus!
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Post by menatwork on May 28, 2024 3:23:03 GMT -5
Well that'd be a turnup for the books if you were one of my cousins! I have lots of cousins.... I'm consistently staggered by how little the majority of the friends know about Christianity in general and the bible in particular to be honest. Down under, workers discourage people from learning Bible or early church history. I remember telling a worker that I'd seen some interesting books on the early Christian History in the library. Next meeting, "Books? Burn them. It's the only light you'll get from them." Ignoramus!
I was attending BSF 20 years ago and happened to mention to a worker, who I new well, that I was doing a year long study of Romans. His response was “why would you want to do that” and then proceeded to mention this in his sermon at convention!! The workers don’t want you doing any in depth study of the bible as you just might find out what they preach is a false gospel which offers no hope to anyone.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 28, 2024 3:27:10 GMT -5
Down under, workers discourage people from learning Bible or early church history. I remember telling a worker that I'd seen some interesting books on the early Christian History in the library. Next meeting, "Books? Burn them. It's the only light you'll get from them." Ignoramus!
I was attending BSF 20 years ago and happened to mention to a worker, who I new well, that I was doing a year long study of Romans. His response was “why would you want to do that” and then proceeded to mention this in his sermon at convention!! The workers don’t want you doing any in depth study of the bible as you just might find out what they preach is a false gospel which offers no hope to anyone. Exactly. They are afraid of the laity knowing too much!
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Post by snow on May 28, 2024 15:07:30 GMT -5
Well that'd be a turnup for the books if you were one of my cousins! I have lots of cousins.... I'm consistently staggered by how little the majority of the friends know about Christianity in general and the bible in particular to be honest. Down under, workers discourage people from learning Bible or early church history. I remember telling a worker that I'd seen some interesting books on the early Christian History in the library. Next meeting, "Books? Burn them. It's the only light you'll get from them." Ignoramus!
Wow it never ceases to amaze me just how similar the 2x2's and the RCC are when it comes to keeping their 'flock' ignorant. Book burning was a big RCC thing too and they literally made an approved reading bible for their members and discouraged reading the actual bible or any other 'heretical scrolls'.
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Post by Admin on May 31, 2024 23:28:49 GMT -5
Curious Admin - has this been your experience? Do you think they were speaking poetically? Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Hi verna, sorry for my slow response, been busy. Also needed time to reflect. It's not easy finding right words to describe my personal experience with the Holy Spirit, which is really like trying to put into words experiences at the interface of the physical and spiritual. Any words will likely depict different things to someone who's also experienced the Holy Spirit to another who hasn't. Nevertheless, here's my (undoubtedly poor) attempt: No, I've never had an experience as described in that scripture you quote (Acts 2). And I've never had a Pentecostal (speaking in tongues) experience. Although it seems our founding father, William Irvine, actually turned up at Azusa Street during the beginnings of Pentecostalism (sometime around 1906 or soon after) so maybe he did? But for me personally, on a daily basis, perhaps the best way to describe my experiences with the Holy Spirit is in those words I quoted by someone else, at the end of my post: "The Holy Spirit is the gust that can unsettle and disquiet. It is the movement of the spirit that can rearrange the landscape of the heart. It is that moving force, the insistent whisper, the part of us that cannot say no. It's the godly get-up-and-go that moves our lives for others. It is the breath of God. It is divine love."Another quote from the internet also resonates with my experiences - all of them are true for me: The work of the Holy Spirit includes conviction of sin (John 16:8), regeneration (John 3:5-6), assurance of salvation (Rom. 8:16), enlightenment (John 16:13), transformation (2 Cor. 3:18), fruitfulness (Gal. 5:22-23), gifting (1 Cor. 12:7), and empowerment (Acts 1:8). However all these works are for one reason — to glorify Jesus and make his power real in the lives of his people.I've lived enough to know full well how my human nature behaves, the good and the bad, and so the parts where the influence and control of the Holy Spirit prompts, acts and empowers against how my nature would (and has done many times, only to be deeply convicted afterwards). I know tongues of actual fire would be much more demonstrative, or speaking in some strange tongue (but then, happy to leave that to Wm Irvine - strange fellow)! One final work of the Holy Spirit which I have experienced and come to realize I can rely on, is the words of Jesus (John 16:13) "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." Not just spiritual truth, sometimes I have found I have some knowledge of something physical or about someone, which can only be attributed to the Holy Spirit's omniscience. He has become someone for me I couldn't imagine living a day without, going forward admin
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Post by verna on Jun 1, 2024 17:50:04 GMT -5
Curious Admin - has this been your experience? Do you think they were speaking poetically? Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Hi verna, sorry for my slow response, been busy. Also needed time to reflect. It's not easy finding right words to describe my personal experience with the Holy Spirit, which is really like trying to put into words experiences at the interface of the physical and spiritual. Any words will likely depict different things to someone who's also experienced the Holy Spirit to another who hasn't. Nevertheless, here's my (undoubtedly poor) attempt: No, I've never had an experience as described in that scripture you quote (Acts 2). And I've never had a Pentecostal (speaking in tongues) experience. Although it seems our founding father, William Irvine, actually turned up at Azusa Street during the beginnings of Pentecostalism (sometime around 1906 or soon after) so maybe he did? But for me personally, on a daily basis, perhaps the best way to describe my experiences with the Holy Spirit is in those words I quoted by someone else, at the end of my post: "The Holy Spirit is the gust that can unsettle and disquiet. It is the movement of the spirit that can rearrange the landscape of the heart. It is that moving force, the insistent whisper, the part of us that cannot say no. It's the godly get-up-and-go that moves our lives for others. It is the breath of God. It is divine love."Another quote from the internet also resonates with my experiences - all of them are true for me: The work of the Holy Spirit includes conviction of sin (John 16:8), regeneration (John 3:5-6), assurance of salvation (Rom. 8:16), enlightenment (John 16:13), transformation (2 Cor. 3:18), fruitfulness (Gal. 5:22-23), gifting (1 Cor. 12:7), and empowerment (Acts 1:8). However all these works are for one reason — to glorify Jesus and make his power real in the lives of his people.I've lived enough to know full well how my human nature behaves, the good and the bad, and so the parts where the influence and control of the Holy Spirit prompts, acts and empowers against how my nature would (and has done many times, only to be deeply convicted afterwards). I know tongues of actual fire would be much more demonstrative, or speaking in some strange tongue (but then, happy to leave that to Wm Irvine - strange fellow)! One final work of the Holy Spirit which I have experienced and come to realize I can rely on, is the words of Jesus (John 16:13) "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." Not just spiritual truth, sometimes I have found I have some knowledge of something physical or about someone, which can only be attributed to the Holy Spirit's omniscience. He has become someone for me I couldn't imagine living a day without, going forward admin Thanks Admin. Just seeing this now. I appreciate you thoughtful response. I am very curious about whether the “holy spirit” is a Christian phenomenon or whether it is accessible to anyone - as in - simply a human experience. I think of the Roald Dahl quote “And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.” Personally sometimes I just have really good days. Like - I can’t believe that just happened! It just seems like I’m in sync. It’s magical. I feel so much love and problems seem diminished and the day seems literally - physically bright! And so I wonder if that’s what it’s like to have the Holy Spirit. I also wonder if it’s a matter of awareness. Lots of cool things always going on. We often just don’t have the eyes to see them. Or maybe I just have no idea what this Holy Spirit is. I am trying to learn to hold other people’s experiences respectfully and curiously. I have a personal problem with exclusivity so my personal expectation is that the Holy Spirit is either accessible by none or all but I could very well be biased. As for the holy spirit directing us re: right and wrong action - hmm. I have become very convicted about things that others are not. An interesting phenomenon for sure. Then comes the challenge- not to condemn those who are not convicted. Such a mystery it all is! Curious what you think of this.
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