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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 12, 2023 21:05:15 GMT -5
The church needs to split to get rid of all the perps and those responsible for all the coverups. What would the split look like? Those who are AGAINST CSA vs Those who are FOR CSA? A few major denominations are now having a schism over the LGBTQ+ issue. Here I can see where reasonable well intentioned people, using the bible can disagree on this issue, but with CSA I can't see how there can be two sides to that question. Aother way of ooking at the divide would be criinanals and their enablers vs the moral
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help
Senior Member
Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
Posts: 841
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Post by help on Nov 12, 2023 21:16:58 GMT -5
The down side of religion. You would think it would make people more harmonious and more able to cope with differences of opinion. Religion is more volatile than politics, which is concerning. It causes War, ie. Middle East, Ukrain. Religion has a lot to answer for in regard to the dreadful damage it has caused to peoples lives, including death. IMO it defeats the purpose of it. Splits take place in all Churches the 2x2's are no exception. There have been many in the past for 2x2's, one more will not matter. I recall the big split in Victoria after Bill Carroll's death. It was on for young and old, friends suddenly became enemies. It just makes you shake your head in disbelief and glad that you have found a more peaceful way of life.
A Protestant is an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them. That was the big split, maybe set the pattern for splits to be par for the course. You would think that there has to be a better medium than religion to unite people and agree on common sense taking over, instead of following religious dogma. Dream on old man.
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jwatt
Junior Member
Posts: 185
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Post by jwatt on Nov 12, 2023 21:53:18 GMT -5
I think it may somewhat more nuanced than for or against it! However, it may come down to some having to make a stand about not meeting with those who do not want to make a stand against offenders. Most definitely need to make a stand and not meet with these sick people. I always remember my father telling me that convention is the safest place on earth. Sadly I have learnt its not. When my boys were very young I unknowingly left them with a pedophile, others knew he was, yet I wasn't told. Never again! I would rather take my grandkids to a camp at the beach than conventions.
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Post by fixit on Nov 12, 2023 22:02:50 GMT -5
Religion is more volatile than politics, which is concerning. It causes War, ie. Middle East, Ukrain. It's a stretch to blame religion for Russia's Imperialist land-grab in Ukraine.
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help
Senior Member
Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
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Post by help on Nov 12, 2023 22:08:48 GMT -5
Peter Mandaville of the United States Institute of Peace has stated that "The conflict in Ukraine is not only a matter of horrible violence, but also a conflict with deeply rooted religious significance."
By using force to try to keep the splintering parts of the once-unified ROC together, Patriarch Kirill is only driving them away. When Russia invaded Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) did not hesitate to throw its support behind the Kremlin's war against a neighboring Orthodox nation.
The issue with the 2x2,s has evolved because of CSA, a very serious issue. Some will be ruled by common sense and the law, others by religious dogma. Hence a fight is going to start that may cause a split. Happens all the time with religious bodies, can lead to War. Just does not make sense.
The 2x2's may have to find a peacemaker. Willie Donaldson was given the job in Victoria, but many just up and left including us. Life is hard enough, so why get mixed up in a religious fight, better off to find a better way. IMO common sense and the Law should always take precedence over religious dogma.
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Post by rk0atheist on Nov 13, 2023 9:29:21 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Nov 13, 2023 10:24:08 GMT -5
I think it may somewhat more nuanced than for or against it! However, it may come down to some having to make a stand about not meeting with those who do not want to make a stand against offenders. If there is a split, then there needs to be a well defined dividing line for the split. If a split isn't well defined, then it can fracture into multiple groups.
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 13, 2023 12:00:45 GMT -5
What would the split look like? Those who are AGAINST CSA vs Those who are FOR CSA? Yep. I really do think it is that simple, and any attempt to spin it any other way is disingenuous. The real problem here, in the F&W trying to deal with this straightforwardly and effectively, is the perniciousness of the Schultz doctrine (aka, The workers are always right, even when they are wrong). So, something as clear and as simple as "Are you for or against CSA?" gets conflated with obedience to the workers being necessary for salvation. So the message is "Shut Up, Look Away, endure what you know to be wrong", so that you don't jeopardize your salvation.
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help
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Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
Posts: 841
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Post by help on Nov 13, 2023 12:14:30 GMT -5
Splits take place all the time, just the nature of the beast. A recent compilation lists 33,089 Christian denominations world-wide, including the massive Roman Catholic Church (with a billion adherents), 25 principal forms of Eastern Orthodoxy, numerous varieties of Protestantism, and tiny store-front churches with fewer than 100 members. Let us try for 50,000. Does not make sense, but it will keep happening. Sometimes Humans are just stupid
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 13, 2023 13:20:00 GMT -5
Splits take place all the time, just the nature of the beast. A recent compilation lists 33,089 Christian denominations world-wide, including the massive Roman Catholic Church (with a billion adherents), 25 principal forms of Eastern Orthodoxy, numerous varieties of Protestantism, and tiny store-front churches with fewer than 100 members. Let us try for 50,000. Does not make sense, but it will keep happening. Sometimes Humans are just stupid. I would like to see 4x2's start up, they would be real planks. I prefer 90 x 45.
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Post by Admin on Nov 13, 2023 16:51:53 GMT -5
Thanks, very respectful and appreciated.
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Post by xna on Nov 13, 2023 22:39:34 GMT -5
What would the split look like? Those who are AGAINST CSA vs Those who are FOR CSA? A few major denominations are now having a schism over the LGBTQ+ issue. Here I can see where reasonable well intentioned people, using the bible can disagree on this issue, but with CSA I can't see how there can be two sides to that question. I think we've already seen it quite clearly.
The two groups are essentially: 1) The spirit-led group 2) The world-swayed group
The spirit-led group believes the Bible fully, accepting that predators should be forgiven seventy-times seven. The world-swayed group believes in zero tolerance based on secular knowledge.
The spirit-led group communicated directly with God about whether predators can attend meetings, interact with children, be workers, etc. The world-swayed group listens to psychologists, law enforcement agents, church consultants, psychiatrists, etc.
The spirit-led group believes that abuse is a minor concern compared to God threatening everybody with hell. Nothing matters but salvation, etc. per the words of Jesus. The world-swayed group believes that abuse is a huge crisis based on listening to victims and secular experts.
It basically comes downs to Biblical Christians who are desensitized to abuse by the scriptures vs Cafeteria Christians who don't know the terror of the scriptures and just cherry pick the Bible occasionally for something that supports them.It sounds like you see the split is between; Religious Fundamentalism vs. Theistic ScienceReligious Fundamentalism: relies exclusively on the Bible as the sole source of knowledge and truth, without accommodating scientific explanations. Theistic Science: Harmonizes religious beliefs with scientific understanding.
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Post by snow on Nov 14, 2023 14:11:18 GMT -5
The church needs to split to get rid of all the perps and those responsible for all the coverups. What would the split look like? Those who are AGAINST CSA vs Those who are FOR CSA? A few major denominations are now having a schism over the LGBTQ+ issue. Here I can see where reasonable well intentioned people, using the bible can disagree on this issue, but with CSA I can't see how there can be two sides to that question. It wouldn't be necessarily pro CSA vs those who are against CSA. I believe the majority are horrified with the CSA. What I see as the split is the faction that believe that the 'way' is the only way to heaven. After I read a reply by one of the friends talking about judging being a sin, they said that judging should not be done to protect your children. I believe it's the price some of the friends think they have to pay if they want to go to heaven. The workers have convinced this faction that they are the law, that total respect and adherence to their decisions are necessary because they have the power to kick them out, and that would mean 'not saved'. The workers are literally telling the friends to not judge, to forgive, and support the workers decisions on the matter. There are also the group of friends that not only believe this but since it never happened to their family (as far as they know) then it doesn't concern them. So I think that is who you will see stay with the workers if a split happens.
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Post by snow on Nov 14, 2023 14:16:54 GMT -5
The down side of religion. You would think it would make people more harmonious and more able to cope with differences of opinion. Religion is more volatile than politics, which is concerning. It causes War, ie. Middle East, Ukrain. Religion has a lot to answer for in regard to the dreadful damage it has caused to peoples lives, including death. IMO it defeats the purpose of it. Splits take place in all Churches the 2x2's are no exception. There have been many in the past for 2x2's, one more will not matter. I recall the big split in Victoria after Bill Carroll's death. It was on for young and old, friends suddenly became enemies. It just makes you shake your head in disbelief and glad that you have found a more peaceful way of life. A Protestant is an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them. That was the big slit, maybe set the pattern for splits to be par for the course. You would think that there has to be a better medium than religion to unite people and agree on common sense taking over, instead of following religious dogma. Dream on old man. My thoughts are that religion is one of the most dangerous because unlike politics you can't change your beliefs because it might literally mean the difference of going to heaven or hell. When something is written in stone about what you can or cannot do to be saved, there isn't much room for a personal interpretation.
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Post by Admin on Nov 14, 2023 18:48:12 GMT -5
Thanks, very respectful and appreciated. The level of disrespect for F&W church members and Christians in general by some members who post on this main TMB board has crossed a red line. There is enough bitterness and twistedness in the world without TMB degenerating to that low level of discourse. Most of the Christian members and many of the atheists treat each group and its individual members with care and respect. The purpose of TMB is as a forum for current and ex members of the F&W church. Not to push alternative belief systems. The atheists have their own sub-board below for such discussions (our very own "two-state solution")! Read the rules for posting here. Those who continue to disrespect them will find themselves taking a short break from TMB (longer in some cases). And to those atheists who post respectfully on TMB main board, thanks and the value that you add and bring with your perspectives is appreciated. admin
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help
Senior Member
Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
Posts: 841
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Post by help on Nov 15, 2023 1:09:35 GMT -5
Sorry Admin, I will pull my head in.
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Post by Pragmatic on Nov 15, 2023 2:05:46 GMT -5
Even though I am in the 2*2 church, I thought your 4*2 remark was clever, and funny I am always happy to laugh at myself, or my own situation.
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Post by jonathan on Nov 15, 2023 6:53:31 GMT -5
Darryl Doland put the letter of Scott Raucher in context: wingsfortruth.info/2023/11/14/darryl-doland-comment-on-scott-rauscher-letter/Darryl Doland 9:56 pm Tonight Scott R & I connected. As Tom H & Tammy C have already written to some of us, their letter needs to be understood in context. It was sent to 6 couples in Bozeman regarding a conversation that has been going on for months. The way I understand it, the workers & the 6 couples do not agree on some things, but the workers think there isn’t any way to resolve things further, so it’s best for everyone to just move on. There have also been some other friends (besides the workers and 6 couples) involved in their reconciliation efforts. One thing Scott emphasized to me is the statements in his letter have nothing to do with victims coming forward and reporting. He said he wants to reassure me they are doing what they can to support all victims. I am writing this in my own words, so I hope it captures the gist of what was said. I understand there could be some controversy about this report, but I’ll just pass on what was said.
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Post by jonathan on Nov 15, 2023 6:58:42 GMT -5
Clarification from Scott Rauscher wingsfortruth.info/2023/11/15/clarification-from-scott-rauscher-etc/Bozeman, MT November 11, 2023 Dear concerned friends, On behalf of the 5 of us, who signed a letter specifically written for you personally about specific cases on Nov. 9th, 2023 (the few couples of concerned friends in Bozeman), as well as on the behalf of Jim Deming, we want to clarify any misunderstandings regarding victims. We apologize for any misunderstanding our last communication might have caused. For many to say we do not care about victims’ feelings/needs is patently untrue. We are not insinuating in any way that victims won’t be listened to, believed, or helped from the past, present, or future. We acknowledge and hurt for the victims whose past is very much their present. This includes when there is a realization of what was previously done to them that becomes a very present struggle. We completely support victims in their journey and want to do what we can to help and encourage healing from wounds rather than having to carry them as open sores for their lifetime. We are not the investigative team nor the trauma team for either the victim nor the perpetrator. We are continuing and will continue to work with all individuals and situations that have been brought to our attention with positive actions that are being taken in this field. We have personally reached out to potential and known victims and provided resources and care. There has been access to a licensed counselor at no charge to the victims of sexual abuse. We continue to value them and want to protect their safety. Please understand that the spiritual safety for all is our greatest concern. In true care, Scott, Tom, Tammy, Heidi & Alexis
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Post by Admin on Nov 15, 2023 7:06:32 GMT -5
Sorry Admin, I will pull my head in. Not you, help. The other 'belief system' is atheism, not your new 4x2 denomination Keep up that humor for us all!
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plp
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by plp on Nov 15, 2023 13:18:51 GMT -5
Thanks, very respectful and appreciated. The level of disrespect for F&W church members and Christians in general by some members who post on this main TMB board has crossed a red line. There is enough bitterness and twistedness in the world without TMB degenerating to that low level of discourse. Most of the Christian members and many of the atheists treat each group and its individual members with care and respect. The purpose of TMB is as a forum for current and ex members of the F&W church. Not to push alternative belief systems. The atheists have their own sub-board below for such discussions (our very own "two-state solution")! Read the rules for posting here. Those who continue to disrespect them will find themselves taking a short break from TMB (longer in some cases). And to those atheists who post respectfully on TMB main board, thanks and the value that you add and bring with your perspectives is appreciated. admin Excellent. If this is followed, then I believe that a number of us who watch from the sidelines will venture back to contributing on TMB.
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plp
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by plp on Nov 15, 2023 13:26:34 GMT -5
I think it may somewhat more nuanced than for or against it! However, it may come down to some having to make a stand about not meeting with those who do not want to make a stand against offenders. Most definitely need to make a stand and not meet with these sick people. I always remember my father telling me that convention is the safest place on earth. Sadly I have learnt its not. When my boys were very young I unknowingly left them with a pedophile, others knew he was, yet I wasn't told. Never again! I would rather take my grandkids to a camp at the beach than conventions. I had a very similar experience with my son, jwatt. Fortunately I do think there is more openness nowadays as to who convicted 2x2 pedophiles and alleged 2x2 pedophiles are in the regions where we live (ie. I believe there is a wider spread of knowledge of who these individuals are). Much more than a few years back anyway.
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Post by snow on Nov 15, 2023 15:31:54 GMT -5
Darryl Doland put the letter of Scott Raucher in context: wingsfortruth.info/2023/11/14/darryl-doland-comment-on-scott-rauscher-letter/Darryl Doland 9:56 pm Tonight Scott R & I connected. As Tom H & Tammy C have already written to some of us, their letter needs to be understood in context. It was sent to 6 couples in Bozeman regarding a conversation that has been going on for months. The way I understand it, the workers & the 6 couples do not agree on some things, but the workers think there isn’t any way to resolve things further, so it’s best for everyone to just move on. There have also been some other friends (besides the workers and 6 couples) involved in their reconciliation efforts. One thing Scott emphasized to me is the statements in his letter have nothing to do with victims coming forward and reporting. He said he wants to reassure me they are doing what they can to support all victims. I am writing this in my own words, so I hope it captures the gist of what was said. I understand there could be some controversy about this report, but I’ll just pass on what was said. I am skeptical about it not being about the victims. His letter clearly stated that they should take it to the police if it was in the past and that they weren't prosecutors. Why would he be talking about complaints to the workers about not removing pedophiles from the meetings to take their complaints to the police? That isn't a police issue. The only thing that could be legally taken to the police would be survivors 'complaining' (another really good look at his mindset) about their abuse to him. Not the friends wanting abusers removed from meetings like is stated in this letter. Here is the paragraph that I am referring to from his original letter. That sounds like complaints that are illegal such as CSA, not complaints about how the overseers are handling things. From today, we will not accept any complaints about the past. If there is anything illegal or criminal in any way, we are asking you to take it to the police. We will only deal with the present and the future.
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 16, 2023 15:30:24 GMT -5
Clarification from Scott Rauscher wingsfortruth.info/2023/11/15/clarification-from-scott-rauscher-etc/Bozeman, MT November 11, 2023 Dear concerned friends, On behalf of the 5 of us, who signed a letter specifically written for you personally about specific cases on Nov. 9th, 2023 (the few couples of concerned friends in Bozeman), as well as on the behalf of Jim Deming, we want to clarify any misunderstandings regarding victims. We apologize for any misunderstanding our last communication might have caused. For many to say we do not care about victims’ feelings/needs is patently untrue. We are not insinuating in any way that victims won’t be listened to, believed, or helped from the past, present, or future. We acknowledge and hurt for the victims whose past is very much their present. This includes when there is a realization of what was previously done to them that becomes a very present struggle. We completely support victims in their journey and want to do what we can to help and encourage healing from wounds rather than having to carry them as open sores for their lifetime. We are not the investigative team nor the trauma team for either the victim nor the perpetrator. We are continuing and will continue to work with all individuals and situations that have been brought to our attention with positive actions that are being taken in this field. We have personally reached out to potential and known victims and provided resources and care. There has been access to a licensed counselor at no charge to the victims of sexual abuse. We continue to value them and want to protect their safety. Please understand that the spiritual safety for all is our greatest concern. In true care, Scott, Tom, Tammy, Heidi & Alexis I agree that this and Darryl Doland's note are probably damage control and that things don't quite line-up... This letter is actually quite well-written. It should have been the first and only communication. The writing style is quite different, so I would bet that it was written by someone other than the first communicator. I have said this before, and I will say it again: 1) The workers need to realize that any written communication is likely to end up under scrutiny on the internet. That is increasingly likely for any private conversations and for any actions as well. 2) They need to develop communications skills, or leave all these types of communications to people who do have the skills. That means addressing specific concerns clearly and directly. Any mealy-mouthed or obfuscating communications smack of dishonesty. THE OLD WAYS OF COMMUNICATION (and conduct) DO NOT WORK ANYMORE. People will call you on it. You might even imagine that God is watching you all the time, in a very public way. (This is not a bad thing.) Please understand that the spiritual safety for all is our greatest concern.This is the line from the above letter that personally bugs me. My first thought is, take care of the physical safety of all God's little ones, and many spiritual crises will be averted. That is a huge step at combatting the problem. The other thing that really bothers me is the emphasis on the care and restoration of the perpetrators. (While they knowingly and willingly (and even eagerly) push D&R people to the sidelines and out of the fellowship.) I watched an interview between Jordan Peterson and Jim Caviezel (the actor from The Sound of Freedom). They addressed how CSA perpetrators actually become perpetrators. (Like many people, this is beyond my ability to understand or even conceive.) They said it was thought after thought after thought (many thousands of thoughts) on the part of the perpetrator before there was any CSA offenses. I still find this hard to take in, but imagine if these individuals actually believed in a God who could discern their thoughts and the intent of their hearts in addition to watching their communications and their actions. Just imagine.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 17, 2023 1:41:36 GMT -5
"From today, we will not accept any complaints about the past. If there is anything illegal or criminal in any way, we are asking you to take it to the police. We will only deal with the present and the future." The above excerpt from the letter may seem cold hearted, but its probably a policy they should have adopted from the onset. They really can't do much about complaints going back years or even decades, neither can the police. So the decision to only deal with current and future wrong doing is probably a logical decision. It might also encourage future victims to report a crime immediately instead of just complaining years after-the-fact.
I'm not suggesting that people (Overseers) who ignored or facilitated past abuse shouldn't be accountable, but that the current leadership can only deal with present problems.
I agree with the idea that they have to get out of the business of sorting out illegal actions of people. I've long said that they had to stop being judge, jury, and prosecutor all in one -- they're not lawyers, they're supposed to be pastors and restoration is their business. There are plenty of laws on the books to help all the friends and workers get along with each other if everyone knows their place and minds their own business. I see one problem, however. A LOT of people will lose a LOT of power and influence if they stick to the plan. That awakening could be more disruptive than the awakening to the honesty problem.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 17, 2023 1:43:20 GMT -5
"From today, we will not accept any complaints about the past. If there is anything illegal or criminal in any way, we are asking you to take it to the police. We will only deal with the present and the future." The above excerpt from the letter may seem cold hearted, but its probably a policy they should have adopted from the onset. They really can't do much about complaints going back years or even decades, neither can the police. So the decision to only deal with current and future wrong doing is probably a logical decision. It might also encourage future victims to report a crime immediately instead of just complaining years after-the-fact.
I'm not suggesting that people (Overseers) who ignored or facilitated past abuse shouldn't be accountable, but that the current leadership can only deal with present problems.
While I agree that they should take it to the police and that the overseers can't prosecute etc., I disagree with their decision to not listen to past allegations. There may be some that are just getting the courage to come forward, specifically because the person that raped them is still in the work and/or meetings with children. The overseers need to know this information so that they can make sure that 1. if they are still workers that they are removed from the work and 2. if they are elders or a friend that still attends meetings with children, that they be removed from meetings. I say that because even though parents may be more vigilant now, they would be better served to at least know of the ones that have allegations so they can make an informed decision based on knowledge. To treat all the workers like they are abusers because they don't know which ones to be concerned about, is not in the best interests of those workers that aren't abusers. While I do see that parents can't trust anyone, there would be different levels of vigilance if some are known to have allegations. Either the friends will need to get this information out to all the friends in their area, or the workers have to. It's easier for the workers to do this because they likely have all the email/phone information for all the friends in the area. The friends might not. But someone has to take responsibility for making important information like allegations known to everyone. Not just parents with children but also grandparents that might have care of their grandchildren. Scott is an overseer that has covered for abusers in the past so in his case there does need to be accountability and consequences for what he has done. This letter is him trying to not take any responsibility for what he did in the past. That's how I see it. He's an amateur at the job, I perceive.
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 17, 2023 19:10:16 GMT -5
A LOT of people will lose a LOT of power and influence if they stick to the plan. That awakening could be more disruptive than the awakening to the honesty problem. This is the thing, isn't it? Love of power and influence. Aka control. And I don't think I am being cynical in saying this. This is why there is no clear path to zero tolerance, and no effective way of dealing with predators. Sad. Still, I would not change a single moment of my life, leading to where I am/who I am today. Heartbreak, challenges and all. I have confidence that people can find their way, a path that is their very own, no matter what anybody else does/doesn't do.
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Post by Pragmatic on Nov 23, 2023 2:17:17 GMT -5
Some may have seen a recent letter by a senior Australian Worker in answer to some Friends' queries about various subjects. I don't have permission to re-post it, but having digested it, I am still a bit hot under the collar about it.
Jesus is referred to as the perfect worker, or may have even been referred to as the first worker. I can't remember. I don't need to point out this error to anyone with an IQ over 50.
Another inference was a reluctant admission that some workers have made mistakes, but it is a sign of humility if the Friends accept their word. Sounds like Dale Shulz!
When asked about Workers working, Preps was used as an example!
I think the letter may be on one of the Facebook sites.
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