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Post by xna on Oct 7, 2023 20:54:28 GMT -5
When I profess I don't recall much being said about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But I recall the workers didn't hold up the Jews very high. They missed their chance and did not accept Jesus as their messiah. My sense is most mainstream Christians embrace the Jews much more than the 2x2. You often hear the phrase "Judeo-Christian" as one and the same side.
I have made 30+ trips to Israel and spent 30+ years working with Israelis. That adds up to a few years of my life living in Israel. So I understand a little about what's going on there. I have been in Israel when workers and friends were in Jerusalem. I have been all over Israel, from Lebanon (at one time you could go into the DMZ zone) to the Red Sea in Eilat by Egypt. Many times I have been in the West Bank, Jerusalem, at the Gaza Strip, the Negev Desert, the Sea of Galilee, the Dead Sea, the Golan Heights, Ramallah, Jericho & the Jordan boarder. I have been to all of the towns that you read of in the bible where Jesus was said to have been. I have experienced some of the Israeli-Palestinian tensions first hand; car bombs, our tires being shot out, rocks being thrown at us, terrorists shot outside my hotel window on the mediterranean sea. I have been in buildings which were hit by rocket attacks.
Here are some of my impressions that may not be well known by many in the USA;
- Most Israeli's love Americans - A lot of Israeli Jews don't like American Jews telling Israeli Jews how to spend the money they send from the USA. - About have of Israeli's are secular ie. not religious - There is a huge social economic divide between the haves (Israeli's) and the have not's ( Palestinian's) - There is a huge social divide between the reformed Jews, and liberal Judaism or progressive Judaism - The country looks more modern and prosperous than most of the USA. - Christianity never caught on in the middle east, today it's less than 2% of the population. - Christianity's biggest success was as an export product. - Global Christianity tourism is a big business in Israel. - Israeli's are very divided about the two state idea. - Israeli's are very divided about what to do about the Palestinians, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, etc. - At the current birth rate, Israel will soon be a majority Arab country. - Patriarchy is alive and well in Israel - Many Jews see Judaism as cultural first, and less as a religion - The USA gives $3.8 billion per year ( 150 Billion+ total) in foreign assistance to Israel - For Israel & Egypt economically, "Peace Talks" are more important than "Peace". If peace ever broke out they could loose $3.8 billion / year. - All Israeli's, both men and women, except for the Hasidic Jews go into the military, so there isn't a distinction between civilian and the military.
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Post by xna on Oct 7, 2023 21:54:44 GMT -5
Here are a couple more thoughts I have about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
- On November 29, 1947 the United Nations adopted Resolution 181 that would divide Great Britain's former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948 when the British mandate was scheduled to end. Israel was one of the few countries which was form not by revolution, but by resolution.
Historically new nations are typically formed when they are invaded and conquered. Here there was a clear winner and looser. The Romans probably had the best formula when they invaded a country; you had a choice; accept Caesar as your lord and ruler, pay taxes and you would become a full Roman citizen or; you could become a slave or die. The Roman approach is not politically acceptable today. The formation of Israel is an experiment in nation formation. Time will tell if a nation can be made by resolution alone.
- Where I live in the USA, my ancestors came from Europe to America. At that time there were many American Indian wars going on. Today there are no American Indian wars here, because all the Indians were killed or moved to a reservation. If they had lived, there probably would still be an American/Indian conflicts happening in my town. This idea of how a nation is formed seem sanguine to the conflict, but I have never heard it discussed.
Imagine what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would look like, if there was no religion involved.
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Lyrics - ImagineSong by John Lennon
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us, only sky Imagine all the people Livin' for today Ah Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion, too Imagine all the people Livin' life in peace You You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world You You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 7, 2023 22:52:06 GMT -5
I have never been able to fathom why the leading western countries in 1947 thought that establishing a new country on religious grounds would not affect the Palestinians. They found their homes and farms taken over. Seven hundred thousand found themselves dispossessed. that's one way of giving someone a reason to hate and kill. There is no easy solution. No turning the clock back. looking on with interest. Where would Israel be without that aid?
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Post by snow on Oct 9, 2023 16:45:17 GMT -5
xna thank you for those great insights. I read a book by Robert Fisk called The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East. It was a major eye opener just how much religion was involved in the decisions to make Israel a country by taking land from the Palestinians and literally moving them to less fertile land. It's not much wonder why there has been decades of unrest in the area.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 9, 2023 18:46:41 GMT -5
xna thank you for those great insights. I read a book by Robert Fisk called The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East. It was a major eye opener just how much religion was involved in the decisions to make Israel a country by taking land from the Palestinians and literally moving them to less fertile land. It's not much wonder why there has been decades of unrest in the area. Israel is the new South Africa. SA's influence on Israel and how they have fostered it in becoming an apartheid country is an interesting story.
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Post by xna on Oct 9, 2023 20:29:12 GMT -5
xna thank you for those great insights. I read a book by Robert Fisk called The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East. It was a major eye opener just how much religion was involved in the decisions to make Israel a country by taking land from the Palestinians and literally moving them to less fertile land. It's not much wonder why there has been decades of unrest in the area. Israel is the new South Africa. SA's influence on Israel and how they have fostered it in becoming an apartheid country is an interesting story. I know about half a dozen in SA for many years (all are white) and they are very unhappy about the changes. There are a lot of connections between the two countries. I don’t expect Israel will mirror SA, but then who knows. That part of the world is also complicated.
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Post by snow on Oct 9, 2023 22:28:03 GMT -5
xna thank you for those great insights. I read a book by Robert Fisk called The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East. It was a major eye opener just how much religion was involved in the decisions to make Israel a country by taking land from the Palestinians and literally moving them to less fertile land. It's not much wonder why there has been decades of unrest in the area. Israel is the new South Africa. SA's influence on Israel and how they have fostered it in becoming an apartheid country is an interesting story. That's interesting. That's a connection I never made but there are definitely similarities.
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Post by Dan on Oct 9, 2023 23:18:28 GMT -5
The Quran upholds the Muslim belief that Ishmael was Abraham's ultimate heir, not Isaac. They believe it was Ishmael, the first son through Hagar, that should have rightly inherited the promised land. Thus, the Arabs and Jews have been fighting ever since. It was all prophesied, Israel would reunite in the latter days, and would be surrounded by enemies on every side. It will be interesting to see if this is a limited war or if it escalates.
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Post by xna on Oct 10, 2023 0:05:18 GMT -5
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Post by Admin on Oct 11, 2023 19:59:58 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Oct 11, 2023 20:25:40 GMT -5
Today non-Muslims are prohibited from entering the mosque, but for many years anyone could enter via the old city. During times of high tension the Israelis often don't let anyone enter. When it's shut down the Arabs get very upset. Once my wife was given a shaw to wear before she could enter, as she had a top which did not have long enough sleeves for them. It's a nice mosque, but mainly it's a big room where people pray from the floor. As they say; “One Man’s Terrorist is Another Man’s Freedom Fighter”. A friend of mine who is now nearly 100 years old fought in the war of Israel's independence. It was Israel's costliest war, with over 6,000 Israelis killed and 15,000 wounded. He would take a box of hand grenades and throw them out the window one by one over Palestinian villages.
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Post by Admin on Oct 11, 2023 21:00:43 GMT -5
Today non-Muslims are prohibited from entering the mosque, but for many years anyone could enter via the old city. During times of high tension the Israelis often don't let anyone enter. When it's shut down the Arabs get very upset. Once my wife was given a shawl to wear before she could enter, as she had a top which did not have long enough sleeves for them. It's a nice mosque, but mainly it's a big room where people pray from the floor. Interesting you've been there. Must have been a fascinating experience. I assume it's the men who pray from the big open floor, and women are segregated (which is what we saw in Istanbul, Blue Mosque). There my wife was given a long blue paper gown, to cover both her arms and legs (quite unbecoming)!
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Post by xna on Oct 11, 2023 21:19:56 GMT -5
Today non-Muslims are prohibited from entering the mosque, but for many years anyone could enter via the old city. During times of high tension the Israelis often don't let anyone enter. When it's shut down the Arabs get very upset. Once my wife was given a shawl to wear before she could enter, as she had a top which did not have long enough sleeves for them. It's a nice mosque, but mainly it's a big room where people pray from the floor. Interesting you've been there. Must have been a fascinating experience. I assume it's the men who pray from the big open floor, and women are segregated (which is what we saw in Istanbul, Blue Mosque). There my wife was given a long blue paper gown, to cover both her arms and legs (quite unbecoming)!I have lost count how many times I have been to Jerusalem, but it's more than 30 times. At this point I could give tours of the place. I don't remember any women in the mosque but there may have been. I only went into the mosque a few times. Once you have seen it there is not much new to see the next time. The main attraction for me are the Arab vendors in that area. The big thing Jews and Arabs are fighting over is who controls a rock, not the mosque. Yes it’s all about who’s rock is it. The Dome of the Rock is an Islamic shrine at the center of the Al-Aqsa mosque compound on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. Muslims believe that the Rock commemorates the night journey of Muhammad. One night the Angel Gabriel came to Muhammad while he slept near the Kaaba in Mecca and took him to al-Masjid al-Aqsa (the farthest mosque) in Jerusalem. For Jews the Dome of the Rock is located on the Temple Mount, which is traditionally believed to be the site of the First and Second Jewish Temples. The Temple Mount, including the site of the Dome of the Rock, is considered the holiest place in Judaism. Some Jews see the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount as a key event in the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies. They believe that when the Messiah comes, the Third Temple will be rebuilt in its rightful place, which is currently occupied by the Dome of the Rock. For these Jews, the Dome of the Rock's presence on the Temple Mount is a source of tension and controversy.
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Post by snow on Oct 12, 2023 13:16:47 GMT -5
Interesting you've been there. Must have been a fascinating experience. I assume it's the men who pray from the big open floor, and women are segregated (which is what we saw in Istanbul, Blue Mosque). There my wife was given a long blue paper gown, to cover both her arms and legs (quite unbecoming)! I have lost count how many times I have been to Jerusalem, but it's more than 30 times. At this point I could give tours of the place. I don't remember any women in the mosque but there may have been. I only went into the mosque a few times. Once you have seen it there is not much new to see the next time. The main attraction for me are the Arab vendors in that area. The big thing Jews and Arabs are fighting over is who controls a rock, not the mosque. Yes it’s all about who’s rock is it. The Dome of the Rock is an Islamic shrine at the center of the Al-Aqsa mosque compound on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. Muslims believe that the Rock commemorates the night journey of Muhammad. One night the Angel Gabriel came to Muhammad while he slept near the Kaaba in Mecca and took him to al-Masjid al-Aqsa (the farthest mosque) in Jerusalem. For Jews the Dome of the Rock is located on the Temple Mount, which is traditionally believed to be the site of the First and Second Jewish Temples. The Temple Mount, including the site of the Dome of the Rock, is considered the holiest place in Judaism. Some Jews see the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount as a key event in the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies. They believe that when the Messiah comes, the Third Temple will be rebuilt in its rightful place, which is currently occupied by the Dome of the Rock. For these Jews, the Dome of the Rock's presence on the Temple Mount is a source of tension and controversy. There have been attempts to bomb the Dome of the Rock to rebuild the temple there. So both sides have their 'terrorist' groups. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Underground
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 573
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Post by magpies39plus on Oct 17, 2023 19:11:49 GMT -5
"Listen to" Israel,Hamas and the end times | Eziekiel 38 | Garry Hamrick
Garry is a "Teacher"as in Ephesians 4,V,11/12. Although never been zapped by the 2x2 doctrine? Because of this you may not agree totally to his summary,but he relates to Prophecy with todays Middle East horror in an exceptionally enlightened scriptural way... Love Magpie
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 573
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Post by magpies39plus on Oct 17, 2023 19:19:10 GMT -5
P.S. DON'T EVER FORGET YOUR FOUNDER WILLIAM IRVING PREDICTED THE JESUS WAS RETURNING IN 1914,WHEN HE DIDN"T TURN UP HIS DISCIPLE/PREACHERS TURNED AWAY FROM HIM BUT NOT HIS DOCTRINE!! BUT ONE OF HIS FOUNDING SUBJECTS WAS JESUS RETURN/SECOND COMING BUT HIS FOLLOWERS STILL STUCK TO THAT AND HIS PREACHER ONLY MINISTRY!! Magpie.
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Post by fixit on Oct 17, 2023 20:55:05 GMT -5
I have never been able to fathom why the leading western countries in 1947 thought that establishing a new country on religious grounds would not affect the Palestinians. They found their homes and farms taken over. Seven hundred thousand found themselves dispossessed. that's one way of giving someone a reason to hate and kill. There is no easy solution. No turning the clock back. looking on with interest. Where would Israel be without that aid?
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Post by fixit on Oct 17, 2023 21:35:20 GMT -5
- Christianity never caught on in the middle east, today it's less than 2% of the population. As far as I know, North Africa, the Middle East, Turkey, Iran etc were all Christian/Jewish countries before they were turned into Muslim countries. Once a country becomes Muslim it's very difficult for Christianity to survive.
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 573
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Post by magpies39plus on Oct 18, 2023 0:13:20 GMT -5
I know I have mentioned his name before----"BUT" Garry Hamrick's teaching on Eziekiel 37-39 is great. And now the Sunday just gone on .... Israel Hamas and end times|Eziekiel 38....... relating to today. Teacher as Ephesians 4 v 11/12 is one of the gifts"Jesus"gave the Church (The Body of Christ). Stop!!! going over past #'s of Palestinians Arabs,etc? Why God's Prophecy has the full History and Future !! As in the Scriptures and remember those same Scriptures say "All Scripture is inspired by God". PS remember it says "All Scripture" . Don't be to enclosed by a Preacher only mob open your heart to the Holy Spirit and see clearly verses like 1 Corinthians 9,v, 3/4. Ever heard that Preached on? As with the "command" that "all"Bishops(Elders),Deacons,etc are to be "married". Do the 2x2's speak on that, "NO". But the experience of paedophiles in the closed 2x2's was one of the reasons I left,and others including young women. Also we had to lie about no name and property"WELL" It was still registered as the Christian Assemblies of Australia and that name "OWNED"the Dandenong Convention Grounds,etcetc when I left!! This helped me to find a more active fulfilling effective Christian walk.... Love Magpie.
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