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Post by mod5 on Aug 30, 2023 19:42:29 GMT -5
I have just finished read a book called “Tell No One” by Brendan Watkins whose birth father was a Catholic priest and birth mother a nun.
A week after his birth he was placed in foster care with all knowledge of his birth erased and not discussed. The book tells the story of Brendan’s search for truth about the circumstances of his birth and who were is birth parents.
It is a powerful and heart wrenching story of getting to the bottom of the cover ups made by the church to conceal his identity. He makes the point that less than half of Catholic priest are celibate and that there would be many thousands of children born to priests that have been given away.
In reading the book there are many similarities between the hierarchy and practises of the Catholic church and the F&W church. The priests have total control over the nuns as do the overseers (and male workers) over female workers. The power imbalance is huge and along with being celibate leads to great temptation with terrible outcomes for everyone.
I wonder if there has been any research on children who have been fathered by workers and if anyone knows if this has happened recently. As Brendan says in his book this matter is a ticking time bomb for the church, which is about to explode
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 31, 2023 3:46:21 GMT -5
Thanks for this - on my Kobo now
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Post by Admin on Aug 31, 2023 22:05:14 GMT -5
The Boston Globe "Spotlight" team has uncovered strong evidence that thousands of people across the world "in Ireland, Mexico, Poland, Paraguay, other countries, and in big and small American cities... are the sons and daughters of Catholic priests". The Boston Globe articles are paywalled, but there are plenty of reviews online and also discussions with reporter Michael Rezendes, for example. www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/catholic-priests-father-children-boston-globe-spotlight-michael-rezendes-cbs-this-morning/TMB is aware of two purported instances of children born to unmarried workers, one historic and one contemporary. Apart from the morality and ethics of those involved, the effects of the lies and coverups on children of such couplings are diabolical according to the Spotlight investigations.
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Post by Admin on Aug 31, 2023 22:13:10 GMT -5
The strong factors contributing to the large number of children born out of wedlock to Catholic priests are identified as celibacy, opportunity and hierarchical power.
Sounding alarmingly familiar.
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Post by passingby on Sept 10, 2023 21:37:02 GMT -5
I have just finished read a book called “Tell No One” by Brendan Watkins whose birth father was a Catholic priest and birth mother a nun. A week after his birth he was placed in foster care with all knowledge of his birth erased and not discussed. The book tells the story of Brendan’s search for truth about the circumstances of his birth and who were is birth parents. It is a powerful and heart wrenching story of getting to the bottom of the cover ups made by the church to conceal his identity. He makes the point that less than half of Catholic priest are celibate and that there would be many thousands of children born to priests that have been given away. In reading the book there are many similarities between the hierarchy and practises of the Catholic church and the F&W church. The priests have total control over the nuns as do the overseers (and male workers) over female workers. The power imbalance is huge and along with being celibate leads to great temptation with terrible outcomes for everyone. I wonder if there has been any research on children who have been fathered by workers and if anyone knows if this has happened recently. As Brendan says in his book this matter is a ticking time bomb for the church, which is about to explode apparently, with the new genetic testing options now out there - 23 and me, ancestry.com - among others, a surprising number of families have had some brother, sister and cousin surprises. When those most directly involved are confronted or questioned about it, for the most part, the response is "no, I don't want to talk about it"
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Post by Pragmatic on Sept 10, 2023 21:46:19 GMT -5
What a great read by Brendan Watkins, and yes some parallels in the 2*2 church in the way people hide what they don't want to be known.
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Post by fred on Sept 11, 2023 20:07:12 GMT -5
What a great read by Brendan Watkins, and yes some parallels in the 2*2 church in the way people hide what they don't want to be known. Nothing surprises me any more. From the book : "Morality is doing what is right,no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right." ...... H L Mencken "The sheep will spend its entire life fearing the wolf, only to be eaten by the shepherd." African proverb
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Post by fred on Sept 11, 2023 20:09:21 GMT -5
What a great read by Brendan Watkins, and yes some parallels in the 2*2 church in the way people hide what they don't want to be known.
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Post by mountain on Sept 12, 2023 4:14:55 GMT -5
In fairness secrecy was a societal thing back in the Victorian times right up until the 1970s at least, especially in matters where shame may fall on families or individuals. Such things brought stigma and had adverse influences on one's life. I remember back in the 1960s -1970s, women who had been divorced were stigmatised to the point it affected job opportunities and social contact.
Many new born illegitimate babies were given away for adoption mainly because of pressure of stigma etc. Look at what Joseph had to put up with?
What I find extra appalling is the one or two cases early in the sect's history where married couple gave their children away just so that both of them would be free to enter the work. Of course this can equate to those in the work who would not take responsibility for their procreation, ie leaving the work and getting a job, marrying their 'partner' and bringing up the child in a proper family union. Not all matters are as simple as that, I appreciate. Other factors may apply in some cases, but all too often complex circumstances are made to avoid the simple solution.
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Post by passingby on Sept 12, 2023 14:13:28 GMT -5
In fairness secrecy was a societal thing back in the Victorian times right up until the 1970s at least, especially in matters where shame may fall on families or individuals. Such things brought stigma and had adverse influences on one's life. I remember back in the 1960s -1970s, women who had been divorced were stigmatised to the point it affected job opportunities and social contact. Many new born illegitimate babies were given away for adoption mainly because of pressure of stigma etc. Look at what Joseph had to put up with? What I find extra appalling is the one or two cases early in the sect's history where married couple gave their children away just so that both of them would be free to enter the work. Of course this can equate to those in the work who would not take responsibility for their procreation, ie leaving the work and getting a job, marrying their 'partner' and bringing up the child in a proper family union. Not all matters are as simple as that, I appreciate. Other factors may apply in some cases, but all too often complex circumstances are made to avoid the simple solution. Yeah.... The Catholics weren't the only ones where divorce was a big deal. (To their consistency credit, it still is.) I guess all Christian religions and members once took to heart the part about 'what God hath joined together....' Pretty big deal to interfere with that kind of joining, ... or maybe worse to say it never was a Godley marriage in the first place, - probably conducted in front of God fearing friends and family yet too. What a shameful fraud and betrayal. So, yeah, lots of stigma, back in the day . I don't understand though what you find so appalling about giving away ones children so they could go into the work? Unless you feel that's such an unworthy calling? There's no guarantee they'd have been any better parents to stay, and do their duty as you imply, but all along always regretting not going into the work. And who says that whomever raised them wouldn't have been a good family or "parents". And whether it would have been any trauma to a child or children is a highly variable and individual thing. No certain guarantees there one way or the other either. The appalling thing to me is all the unwanted children born to people who have enough sense to realize they would not be good parents but are prohibited from or greatly hindered from ending a pregnancy. Or are forced to bring one to term in a society with an absolutely appalling foster care system, and an adoption system with so many prohibitive barriers.
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Post by mountain on Sept 12, 2023 14:49:25 GMT -5
In fairness secrecy was a societal thing back in the Victorian times right up until the 1970s at least, especially in matters where shame may fall on families or individuals. Such things brought stigma and had adverse influences on one's life. I remember back in the 1960s -1970s, women who had been divorced were stigmatised to the point it affected job opportunities and social contact. Many new born illegitimate babies were given away for adoption mainly because of pressure of stigma etc. Look at what Joseph had to put up with? What I find extra appalling is the one or two cases early in the sect's history where married couple gave their children away just so that both of them would be free to enter the work. Of course this can equate to those in the work who would not take responsibility for their procreation, ie leaving the work and getting a job, marrying their 'partner' and bringing up the child in a proper family union. Not all matters are as simple as that, I appreciate. Other factors may apply in some cases, but all too often complex circumstances are made to avoid the simple solution. Yeah.... The Catholics weren't the only ones where divorce was a big deal. (To their consistency credit, it still is.) I guess all Christian religions and members once took to heart the part about 'what God hath joined together....' Pretty big deal to interfere with that kind of joining, ... or maybe worse to say it never was a Godley marriage in the first place, - probably conducted in front of God fearing friends and family yet too. What a shameful fraud and betrayal. So, yeah, lots of stigma, back in the day . I don't understand though what you find so appalling about giving away ones children so they could go into the work? Unless you feel that's such an unworthy calling? In my view a parent's first calling is to their children. They generally are the best parents a child can have. At least that's the way it's supposed to be. As a parent myself, I find it appalling to give away one's children so that the parents can go into the work. In my view it is a form of 'living abortion.' I cannot reconcile this action with Godly behaviour, no matter the spiritual crusade it was purported to be. The unworthy calling was in becoming parents in the first place.
There's no guarantee they'd have been any better parents to stay, and do their duty as you imply, but all along always regretting not going into the work. And who says that whomever raised them wouldn't have been a good family or "parents". And whether it would have been any trauma to a child or children is a highly variable and individual thing. No certain guarantees there one way or the other either. The appalling thing to me is all the unwanted children born to people who have enough sense to realize they would not be good parents but are prohibited from or greatly hindered from ending a pregnancy. Or are forced to bring one to term in a society with an absolutely appalling foster care system, and an adoption system with so many prohibitive barriers.
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Post by passingby on Sept 12, 2023 15:45:28 GMT -5
In my view a parent's first calling is to their children. They generally are the best parents a child can have. At least that's the way it's supposed to be. As a parent myself, I find it appalling to give away one's children so that the parents can go into the work. In my view it is a form of 'living abortion.' I cannot reconcile this action with Godly behaviour, no matter the spiritual crusade it was purported to be. The unworthy calling was in becoming parents in the first place.
Thanks mountain, I can understand your position. You must be even more horrified by a religion that actually glorifies what God birthed, raised up to about 33 years old, and then sacrificed. What do you think of the Christians here, ex or not, who believe (and promote) that this is good? I think some get past that is by thinking - well it was just all symbolic, his spirit never actually died, (he just sort of died for us) a few short hours at the worst, comparatively.
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Post by snow on Sept 13, 2023 12:35:20 GMT -5
In fairness secrecy was a societal thing back in the Victorian times right up until the 1970s at least, especially in matters where shame may fall on families or individuals. Such things brought stigma and had adverse influences on one's life. I remember back in the 1960s -1970s, women who had been divorced were stigmatised to the point it affected job opportunities and social contact. Many new born illegitimate babies were given away for adoption mainly because of pressure of stigma etc. Look at what Joseph had to put up with? What I find extra appalling is the one or two cases early in the sect's history where married couple gave their children away just so that both of them would be free to enter the work. Of course this can equate to those in the work who would not take responsibility for their procreation, ie leaving the work and getting a job, marrying their 'partner' and bringing up the child in a proper family union. Not all matters are as simple as that, I appreciate. Other factors may apply in some cases, but all too often complex circumstances are made to avoid the simple solution. From what I'm hearing lately the children of sister workers that got pregnant were given to devout 'friends' to adopt and raise. The sister workers went off the lists 'to rest' and once the baby was delivered and adopted by friends that would keep their mouths shut, they went back on the lists. I had no idea this was going on. I'm glad I found my biological parents because I would now be wondering which workers were my parents!!! My parents were older and very devout so I can see them doing just that for the workers.
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