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Post by Admin on Jul 18, 2023 17:05:40 GMT -5
This is what Trevor said when it was his time to speak at Hermosa ConventionLetter to the church, whether or not you attend meetings Jul 18 All my life I have preferred to stay out of the spotlight, to quietly try to fill my place and do my part. Unfortunately, there sometimes comes a time where it is necessary to be willing to stand for what is right while others sit silently by. I recently went to Hermosa convention with a testimony burned on my heart. For days I wrestled with it, prayed and meditated on it. Asked if it could come from someone else, asked if I could give the testimony and the words be remembered, but not the speaker. Sometimes the answer that we receive is no, and that was my answer. I will not deny the message that God has put on my heart. I will not stand idly by while evil and self-interest pervades God’s people. I stood in the first meeting and spoke my message. As close as I can recall it: “I have come here with a message upon my heart, and I will have no peace until I share it. David committed a terrible crime. He used his power to take that which was not his, and then used his power to cover it up. He was forgiven, but there were consequences, and he became unworthy to build God’s temple. There will be a day when forgiveness is absolute, in eternity forgiveness will have no consequences and no loss of worthiness. But we are not in eternity, and while we are on earth there are consequences and there can be a loss of worthiness. Lately we have been hearing stories of those who used their power to commit terrible acts, and stories of those who used their power to cover those acts up. There can be forgiveness, but there are consequences and there is a loss of worthiness. Some have become unworthy of having fellowship in our homes – especially ones with the most innocent and vulnerable. Some have become unworthy to be a part of God’s ministry. Every year we hear from the platform about that desperate need in the harvest field. There is a need, but that need might not seem so desperate if the worthy ministers were not unevenly yoked with the unworthy and with wolves.” This is not a message I feel worthy to speak on but is a message that I must share. There seems to be a thought amongst some that the only way to be saved is to attend meetings. That casting people from our fellowship homes is relegating people to hell. That is not true. We do not need meetings to be saved, we need a close personal relationship with God. Abusers that are truly repentant will see that they are a danger to the meetings and accept that they have lost worthiness. They will accept that there are places that they cannot go, that there are positions that they are unworthy of. The ones who fight against those consequences are the ones who are not repentant. Growing up reading the bible I was aware that there were going to be false ministers, that there were going to be wolves in sheep’s clothing hiding among the flock. So, when the stories originally came out I was sad, but not surprised. What did surprise me were the stories that kept coming out about all of those who used their position to sweep things under the rug. To tell victims of terrible abuse that they needed to forgive their abusers and to not involve the law. Hearing of workers, who were known to be abusers, moved to a different state rather than removed from the ministry and arrested. I cannot begin to express the hate that has raged in my heart since hearing those stories. We are to be like God. To love the things that God loves and to hate the things that God hates. God hates the abuse of his little ones. God hates that the abusers are allowed to remain in his ministry. God hates that ministers in positions of power would prefer to do that which is easy to that which is right. It's easy to pass off the blame. It’s easy to tell victims that they need to forgive their abusers. It’s easy to allow people to remain in meetings, to allow ministers to remain in the ministry. None of it is right. Mathew 23:24 “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.” Why is there such a strain to tell survivors to forgive those who are not even repentant. Why is that the gnat that causes such consternation. You have swallowed the camel that is sexual assault. You have swallowed the camel that is abuse. Mathew 23:25 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.” I will name no names in this letter. I do not know who the righteous are and who the unrighteous are. The overseers and the workers know who among them is unworthy. The elders and meetings know who among them is unworthy. They know who clings to power. They know who (Matthew 23:26) “love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and chief seats at the synagogues.” Cast them out. There are few things that Jesus said that are said in multiple gospels. One thing that was said in Mathew, Mark, and Luke was deemed important enough to be included in 3 of them. Mark 9:42 “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” That verse isn’t just for the people who have perpetrated abuse. Not just for those who swept it under the rug. That verse is also for those who sat idly by. Those who, through their lack of standing against evil, caused offence. In testimony we also heard at Hermosa that in the parable of the good Samaritan that it was the fault of the thieves that the man was in a ditch on the side of the road. But that as soon as the Levite and priest saw and did nothing, they were why that man was still in the ditch. John Stuart Mill wrote “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” Too many have done nothing. Too many have walked on the other side of the road while the wounded were dying. Too many have trusted that others knew best. Do not deceive yourself. You know what is best, you know what Jesus would do. He would cast the evil out. I have seen many letters from those who have stopped coming to meetings, explaining why – the wrong that they saw in the church. This is my letter as to why I have stayed. It is not because I need the fellowship. Never have I learned or grown more in my personal relationship with God, than during Covid when we had no fellowship meetings. I stayed, because I love the friends. It is because I believe that this is the closest thing to what Jesus taught. I have stayed because I believe that change must come from within. I am unafraid of being asked not to share. I am unafraid of being asked not to attend. Mathew 10:28 “Fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” I have seen the pride that people have in what family people come from. People revering “good families” as if the next generation inherits the testimony of the prior. I have seen people looked down on because they aren’t from the white middle or upper class. I have seen the pervasion of tradition being treated as scripture. I have seen people create rules and treat them as if they are the law. I have not been blind. I have tried to do everything I can to push back on those wrongs, but now I publicly state the feelings of my heart on these issues. Some of the worst offences we have seen are by those who come from a “good family” and “made a mistake”. That attitude is what allows repeat offenders to continue their offences. A lot of the offences are pushed under the rug because they are committed on those that are seen as on the fringes of the flock. Offenders can sense who the most vulnerable are. They can sense who the flock does not fully welcome. They target them and go free, because people don’t care as much about them. I will not dance around the issues with niceties and platitudes. Often it is the poor, the ones from broken homes, and the minorities who get no consideration. When they face abuse and cry out, they are the most likely to be told what happened was their own fault. There is an issue with racism. There is an issue with classism. There is an issue with elitism. There is an issue with sexism. There is an issue with tradition. God’s way is perfect, but men are trying to walk it imperfectly. These are the imperfections. These are the reasons that it took so long for these issues to come to light. Unless I am asked not to, I will consider myself a part of this way, but I will not accept the wrongs that are pervading it. It may feel less important than some of the terrible wrongs that have been happening, but it is also important to stamp out the littler things. The tradition of it being evil or wrong for women to wear pants or have their hair down is something that should have been left in the past. The continued control of how women look, and dress is about control and shame. There is no reason that people dress in a specific way to go to fellowship meetings. How many people who would have happily shared fellowship with us have been turned aside by something that is not biblical and is treated as if it is. It is not because they are unwilling, it is because they see something that is not of God. It is easier to blame others than look within. Do what is right, not what is easy. Look within the fellowship, cast out traditions, prove the ministers, and live for God. Trevor Larsen Fargo, ND
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 18, 2023 19:52:52 GMT -5
Good for Trevor, and others, as they speak out with honesty and forthrightness. I worry, if there is not enough reaction from others to bring about meaningful change, what is going to happen to him, and to others who have been brave enough to speak out, or to sign their names to documents pleading for change. Now, I don't worry about them in the long term, because they are doing what they know to be right, and God is going to be more than okay with that. But, certainly, I do worry about them in the short term, and the price they will have to pay with relationships within the church.. There was a persistent rumor, that workers kept little books of all the friends in an area, and each was coded as to whether they were hearty, not-so-hearty, trouble-makers, marginally professing, divided homes, and the like. Can any former workers (like getreal) confirm this to be true?
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Peony
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Post by Peony on Jul 18, 2023 20:05:13 GMT -5
This cannot be true because this is not an organized religion! Just kidding. There are booklets, for sure, of non-organized-religion-members but I don't know if they are coded. Oh, my listing is likely a doozy!
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Post by jonathan on Jul 18, 2023 23:36:51 GMT -5
There was a persistent rumor, that workers kept little books of all the friends in an area, and each was coded as to whether they were hearty, not-so-hearty, trouble-makers, marginally professing, divided homes, and the like. Can any former workers (like getreal) confirm this to be true? In all my time in the work I've never kept such lists! At times I have a deeper concern for some than others as they go through trials and experiences, and then I focus on praying for them. If I had such lists, instead of really praying for them I'll be too glad to update the lists!! 😱 I have seen how treating people with impartiality and no prejudice enable them to believe in themselves. All want to know they also count. When I come to a new field, I start on a clean slate and I also treat the friends likewise, like they too have a clean slate. Having lists like these compromise the effectual ministering of a worker. It's on a very low level, like childishness. We shouldn't judge people, we are to point people to Christ. On prejudice, recently someone said something like prejudice confuses the past... It also messes up bother the present and the future. Prejudice is the result of us judging others.
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Post by snow on Jul 19, 2023 13:12:28 GMT -5
I can't even start to imagine what was written by my name! Nothing good I'm sure.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 19, 2023 14:52:23 GMT -5
I can't even start to imagine what was written by my name! Nothing good I'm sure. Lol. I'm pretty sure you pre-date the coding for Western Canada! I never really heard of this until the 1990s?
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 19, 2023 14:58:08 GMT -5
There was a persistent rumor, that workers kept little books of all the friends in an area, and each was coded as to whether they were hearty, not-so-hearty, trouble-makers, marginally professing, divided homes, and the like. Can any former workers (like getreal) confirm this to be true? In all my time in the work I've never kept such lists! At times I have a deeper concern for some than others as they go through trials and experiences, and then I focus on praying for them. If I had such lists, instead of really praying for them I'll be too glad to update the lists!! 😱 I have seen how treating people with impartiality and no prejudice enable them to believe in themselves. All want to know they also count. When I come to a new field, I start on a clean slate and I also treat the friends likewise, like they too have a clean slate. Having lists like these compromise the effectual ministering of a worker. It's on a very low level, like childishness. We shouldn't judge people, we are to point people to Christ. On prejudice, recently someone said something like prejudice confuses the past... It also messes up bother the present and the future. Prejudice is the result of us judging others. I notice that you say you never kept such lists, but you fail to address if you know of their existence. I really like your clean slate approach, I think it is a very good one. I know there are studies about the clean slate approach in schools, and how it can significantly impact the scholastic performance of kids. Why should adults be any different, no matter the environment?
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Post by snow on Jul 19, 2023 15:00:48 GMT -5
I can't even start to imagine what was written by my name! Nothing good I'm sure. Lol. I'm pretty sure you pre-date the coding for Western Canada! I never really heard of this until the 1990s? Ah okay then. I'm good. I was out from under their radar long before the 90's.
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Post by getreal on Jul 19, 2023 15:50:29 GMT -5
Good for Trevor, and others, as they speak out with honesty and forthrightness. I worry, if there is not enough reaction from others to bring about meaningful change, what is going to happen to him, and to others who have been brave enough to speak out, or to sign their names to documents pleading for change. Now, I don't worry about them in the long term, because they are doing what they know to be right, and God is going to be more than okay with that. But, certainly, I do worry about them in the short term, and the price they will have to pay with relationships within the church.. There was a persistent rumor, that workers kept little books of all the friends in an area, and each was coded as to whether they were hearty, not-so-hearty, trouble-makers, marginally professing, divided homes, and the like. Can any former workers (like getreal) confirm this to be true? Well, yes and no and depending on the locale. I went to one region and the worker I was with gave me a run down of who were the goats and who were the sheep in the field. 😳 imagine my shock. If you are getting to know me I found I much preferred the so called goats. That was a weird place. And then there is the friends books we all got updated each year. It will be digital now I expect. There was a bit of a code in there as far as who was professing and not and if I recall correctly something to indicate who was divorced and remarried and who couldn’t take part. That sort of thing. Also who the elders. To be honest it sort of helped when you were on special meeting rounds somewhere so you knew what you were walking into. That is all I know of and have personally experienced.
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Post by jonathan on Jul 19, 2023 18:05:37 GMT -5
In all my time in the work I've never kept such lists! At times I have a deeper concern for some than others as they go through trials and experiences, and then I focus on praying for them. If I had such lists, instead of really praying for them I'll be too glad to update the lists!! 😱 I have seen how treating people with impartiality and no prejudice enable them to believe in themselves. All want to know they also count. When I come to a new field, I start on a clean slate and I also treat the friends likewise, like they too have a clean slate. Having lists like these compromise the effectual ministering of a worker. It's on a very low level, like childishness. We shouldn't judge people, we are to point people to Christ. On prejudice, recently someone said something like prejudice confuses the past... It also messes up bother the present and the future. Prejudice is the result of us judging others. I notice that you say you never kept such lists, but you fail to address if you know of their existence. I really like your clean slate approach, I think it is a very good one. I know there are studies about the clean slate approach in schools, and how it can significantly impact the scholastic performance of kids. Why should adults be any different, no matter the environment? No, never did my companions make it known to me if they had such books/lists. My focus is completely on the gospel for both professing abd unprofessing people. Each time I come to a field, new or repeat, my only question is where do we start with the gospel first. I know many workers first want to know where they can stay. That doesn't matter to me, that is secondary abd secondary things have a way of sorting themselves out. If I have to, I'll sleep on a bench in a public place, like I've had to do once. No problem! The Lord Jesus referred to his dwelling / overnight place as a fox's hole. Foxes have a den to raise their young, and I don't have children so it's not important to me.
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Post by getreal on Jul 19, 2023 19:27:14 GMT -5
I notice that you say you never kept such lists, but you fail to address if you know of their existence. I really like your clean slate approach, I think it is a very good one. I know there are studies about the clean slate approach in schools, and how it can significantly impact the scholastic performance of kids. Why should adults be any different, no matter the environment? No, never did my companions make it known to me if they had such books/lists. My focus is completely on the gospel for both professing abd unprofessing people. Each time I come to a field, new or repeat, my only question is where do we start with the gospel first. I know many workers first want to know where they can stay. That doesn't matter to me, that is secondary abd secondary things have a way of sorting themselves out. If I have to, I'll sleep on a bench in a public place, like I've had to do once. No problem! The Lord Jesus referred to his dwelling / overnight place as a fox's hole. Foxes have a den to raise their young, and I don't have children so it's not important to me. I am sorry Jonathan, but somehow your answers puzzle me immensely. If you have been in a state or province for awhile and you have been on a few special meeting rounds there isn’t a field where you somehow don’t know what friends you can stay with. There aren’t many you cannot stay with unless they are single women. You talk like you are striking out into unknown lands😀. Seriously? Your answers are so often vague and super spiritual but not very specific. On purpose? you are maybe making it up??? Strike me down if I am wrong. Does anyone really know for sure? How long have you been in the work? Can you say that much? Apologies on bended knee and full prostration if I am wrong. It is maybe just a personality thing, the way you talk.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 19, 2023 22:16:45 GMT -5
I can't even start to imagine what was written by my name! Nothing good I'm sure. Lol. I'm pretty sure you pre-date the coding for Western Canada! I never really heard of this until the 1990s? Oh, yes. The book. That little book that fit nicely into the shirt pocket or the jacket pocket of man's suit. Just the right size to fit into a woman's purse. Full of all the secret codes that any worker entering into any field of the province would know instantaneously about the sheep they were sent to shepherd. Jack & Jill Hill: a professing couple. Jack& Jill Hill: He is professing, she isn't. Jack &Jill Hill: She is professing, he isn't. MR Jack Hill: divorced or separated man. MRS Jill Hill: divorced or separated woman. There are also codes referring to whether children living in the home are adult or youth, and if those same children are professing or not. Codes referring to elders, deacons, meeting homes, and more that I can't remember or was not made aware of. All of the workers have them as well as all of the elders. Oh, no, they are not an organized religion. This is not organization.
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Post by Dan on Jul 19, 2023 23:06:28 GMT -5
Lol. I'm pretty sure you pre-date the coding for Western Canada! I never really heard of this until the 1990s? Oh, yes. The book. That little book that fit nicely into the shirt pocket or the jacket pocket of man's suit. Just the right size to fit into a woman's purse. Full of all the secret codes that any worker entering into any field of the province would know instantaneously about the sheep they were sent to shepherd. Jack & Jill Hill: a professing couple. Jack& Jill Hill: He is professing, she isn't. Jack &Jill Hill: She is professing, he isn't. MR Jack Hill: divorced or separated man. MRS Jill Hill: divorced or separated woman. There are also codes referring to whether children living in the home are adult or youth, and if those same children are professing or not. Codes referring to elders, deacons, meeting homes, and more that I can't remember or was not made aware of. All of the workers have them as well as all of the elders. Oh, no, they are not an organized religion. This is not organization.
I wouldn't call that 'codes', but just pertinent information to familiarize a Worker with a new field they are entering. Of course they need to know where and who has the meeting homes, who's professing and who's not, etc. Passing along information about the people they will be staying with and shepherding is important. It's preferable that a Worker be brought up to date on all the existing situations in a new field rather than going in blind and being unaware of preexisting problems. That doesn't smack of organized religion to me, but just exercising some commonsense.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 20, 2023 0:59:09 GMT -5
Oh, yes. The book. That little book that fit nicely into the shirt pocket or the jacket pocket of man's suit. Just the right size to fit into a woman's purse. Full of all the secret codes that any worker entering into any field of the province would know instantaneously about the sheep they were sent to shepherd. Jack & Jill Hill: a professing couple. Jack& Jill Hill: He is professing, she isn't. Jack &Jill Hill: She is professing, he isn't. MR Jack Hill: divorced or separated man. MRS Jill Hill: divorced or separated woman. There are also codes referring to whether children living in the home are adult or youth, and if those same children are professing or not. Codes referring to elders, deacons, meeting homes, and more that I can't remember or was not made aware of. All of the workers have them as well as all of the elders. Oh, no, they are not an organized religion. This is not organization. I wouldn't call that 'codes', but just pertinent information to familiarize a Worker with a new field they are entering. Of course they need to know where and who has the meeting homes, who's professing and who's not, etc. Passing along information about the people they will be staying with and shepherding is important. It's preferable that a Worker be brought up to date on all the existing situations in a new field rather than going in blind and being unaware of preexisting problems. That doesn't smack of organized religion to me, but just exercising some commonsense.
code
noun 1.a system of words, letters, figures, or other symbols substituted for other words, letters, etc., especially for the purposes of secrecy. Maybe you wouldn't call that 'codes', but that's exactly what it is.
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Post by jonathan on Jul 20, 2023 3:59:32 GMT -5
No, never did my companions make it known to me if they had such books/lists. My focus is completely on the gospel for both professing abd unprofessing people. Each time I come to a field, new or repeat, my only question is where do we start with the gospel first. I know many workers first want to know where they can stay. That doesn't matter to me, that is secondary abd secondary things have a way of sorting themselves out. If I have to, I'll sleep on a bench in a public place, like I've had to do once. No problem! The Lord Jesus referred to his dwelling / overnight place as a fox's hole. Foxes have a den to raise their young, and I don't have children so it's not important to me. I am sorry Jonathan, but somehow your answers puzzle me immensely. If you have been in a state or province for awhile and you have been on a few special meeting rounds there isn’t a field where you somehow don’t know what friends you can stay with. There aren’t many you cannot stay with unless they are single women. You talk like you are striking out into unknown lands😀. Seriously? Your answers are so often vague and super spiritual but not very specific. On purpose? you are maybe making it up??? Strike me down if I am wrong. Does anyone really know for sure? How long have you been in the work? Can you say that much? Apologies on bended knee and full prostration if I am wrong. It is maybe just a personality thing, the way you talk. No problem, apology accepted. In what way do you feel I'm too vague? I'll gladly go into more. Maybe I appear vague, as I tried to stick to the subject of the thread, abs wouldn't want to go on abd on and get off-topic.
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 20, 2023 19:32:15 GMT -5
There was a persistent rumor, that workers kept little books of all the friends in an area, and each was coded as to whether they were hearty, not-so-hearty, trouble-makers, marginally professing, divided homes, and the like. Can any former workers (like getreal ) confirm this to be true? Yes please can any former workers confirm this to be true? Tell us who the workers are that keep little books like this. Like Jonathan I have never kept such a book nor ever heard of such books until your mention of them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2023 19:49:50 GMT -5
There was a persistent rumor, that workers kept little books of all the friends in an area, and each was coded as to whether they were hearty, not-so-hearty, trouble-makers, marginally professing, divided homes, and the like. Can any former workers (like getreal ) confirm this to be true? Sharon Like Jonathan I have never kept such a book nor ever heard of such books until your mention of them. I was likewise ignorant of this as well, not saying it ain't true but really horrible if it is...
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Post by getreal on Jul 20, 2023 22:14:19 GMT -5
Yeah, I don’t believe this system is a thing. Never saw it. Nothing burger.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 20, 2023 23:44:40 GMT -5
There was a persistent rumor, that workers kept little books of all the friends in an area, and each was coded as to whether they were hearty, not-so-hearty, trouble-makers, marginally professing, divided homes, and the like. Can any former workers (like getreal ) confirm this to be true? Yes please can any former workers confirm this to be true? Tell us who the workers are that keep little books like this. Like Jonathan I have never kept such a book nor ever heard of such books until your mention of them. In the California jurisdiction they are kept by the older companion in the field, and passed on to the next older companion in the same field. I had a conversation with one such worker in our field, and he enlightened me on a lot of things that he read in the little book about what he found in the book that happened before he came here. Of course, at the time, I was considered a hearty alternate elder.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 21, 2023 0:51:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I don’t believe this system is a thing. Never saw it. Nothing burger. It is DEFINITELY a thing. I have held them in my own hands, so just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. How long ago were you in the work, getreal? What area of Canada/US were you in? In Canada's prairie provinces, every worker and every elder gets a copy. It's pocketsize, and lists all the homes and inhabitants of any home where there is a professing person or persons. It also lists directions to homes in rural areas, as well as all the codes mentioned earlier.
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Post by getreal on Jul 21, 2023 1:11:12 GMT -5
Yup. Held them in my hand. Had them and used them. But there is not the detail of a rating system as stated. Read my post again. Don’t give the workers too much credit. They are not that organized. I am not defending the church god knows and everyone who reads my posts but this bit is a dead end. Look for problems and they are plenty elsewhere.
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Post by getreal on Jul 21, 2023 1:13:23 GMT -5
Also, why doesn’t Jonathan jump in here with his knowledge and specificity😀
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 21, 2023 1:43:08 GMT -5
Yup. Held them in my hand. Had them and used them. But there is not the detail of a rating system as stated. Read my post again. Don’t give the workers too much credit. They are not that organized. I am not defending the church god knows and everyone who reads my posts but this bit is a dead end. Look for problems and they are plenty elsewhere. Actually, there are two different books, at least in the CA jurisdiction. One is the book list of all the meetings, friends, and all the vital statistics. Then there is the "field" book which is only for the worker in charge for the field. It's that one that has all the little warnings about who to be afraid of in the field, etc.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 21, 2023 1:48:01 GMT -5
Yup. Held them in my hand. Had them and used them. But there is not the detail of a rating system as stated. Read my post again. Don’t give the workers too much credit. They are not that organized. I am not defending the church god knows and everyone who reads my posts but this bit is a dead end. Look for problems and they are plenty elsewhere. Ok, getreal. We're on the same page here.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 21, 2023 12:42:11 GMT -5
Yup. Held them in my hand. Had them and used them. But there is not the detail of a rating system as stated. Read my post again. Don’t give the workers too much credit. They are not that organized. I am not defending the church god knows and everyone who reads my posts but this bit is a dead end. Look for problems and they are plenty elsewhere. I don't think keeping lists is intrinsically either a good or bad thing. In my geographic area, in the 1970's and 1980's, address lists and phone list were relatively common and everybody got them. They were convenient, you kept them by the phone. In the 1990's I believe they started to phase them out, at least from wide distribution, because there were beginning to be enough "bitter exes" and they did not want to make it easier for them to contact the friends after they had left. As a kid, I remember the first address list that came out in booklet form. As you traced your parents names, and other relatives and friends, you had the feeling that you were maybe looking at a version of the Lamb's Book of Life! If they are simply used for ease of contact, I don't think anyone would have a problem with them. If they are used to otherwise categorize or track people, then it is a little sketchier. In the province I grew up in, this would have been totally unnecessary, because you basically knew everyone, watched many of them grow up, and knew their parents and grandparents. If you lived in a larger geographic area, say California, (or even Alberta or BC) with more people constantly moving in and out, there would have been more incentive to use them for other purposes. The reason why this crossed my mind on this particular thread is that if anyone is using them to track what Dale Schultz has referred to as "disturbed" people, then they are going to be busy these days, with the number of letters being written, letters signed, questions asked. Would a 'Like' on a Facebook posting, say, be enough to earn you a black mark?
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Post by getreal on Jul 21, 2023 13:30:07 GMT -5
Yup. Held them in my hand. Had them and used them. But there is not the detail of a rating system as stated. Read my post again. Don’t give the workers too much credit. They are not that organized. I am not defending the church god knows and everyone who reads my posts but this bit is a dead end. Look for problems and they are plenty elsewhere. Actually, there are two different books, at least in the CA jurisdiction. One is the book list of all the meetings, friends, and all the vital statistics. Then there is the "field" book which is only for the worker in charge for the field. It's that one that has all the little warnings about who to be afraid of in the field, etc. Can imagine that. California is so big with so many friends. Also when you get to a field new to you there is the contact book used in some places with lists of names and numbers and a few details of contacts to call on and invite, follow up on. I imagine again that all these things are digital.
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Post by fixit on Jul 21, 2023 13:34:03 GMT -5
Yup. Held them in my hand. Had them and used them. But there is not the detail of a rating system as stated. Read my post again. Don’t give the workers too much credit. They are not that organized. I am not defending the church god knows and everyone who reads my posts but this bit is a dead end. Look for problems and they are plenty elsewhere. Growing up we were taught that one of the differentiating factors making us right was that we have no church roll. God's people know each other by our "spirit" and can recognise one another anywhere in the world. Only "worldly churches" need a roll to keep track of their members.
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2023 13:48:31 GMT -5
Yup. Held them in my hand. Had them and used them. But there is not the detail of a rating system as stated. Read my post again. Don’t give the workers too much credit. They are not that organized. I am not defending the church god knows and everyone who reads my posts but this bit is a dead end. Look for problems and they are plenty elsewhere. I don't think keeping lists is intrinsically either a good or bad thing. In my geographic area, in the 1970's and 1980's, address lists and phone list were relatively common and everybody got them. They were convenient, you kept them by the phone. In the 1990's I believe they started to phase them out, at least from wide distribution, because there were beginning to be enough "bitter exes" and they did not want to make it easier for them to contact the friends after they had left. As a kid, I remember the first address list that came out in booklet form. As you traced your parents names, and other relatives and friends, you had the feeling that you were maybe looking at a version of the Lamb's Book of Life! If they are simply used for ease of contact, I don't think anyone would have a problem with them. If they are used to otherwise categorize or track people, then it is a little sketchier. In the province I grew up in, this would have been totally unnecessary, because you basically knew everyone, watched many of them grow up, and knew their parents and grandparents. If you lived in a larger geographic area, say California, (or even Alberta or BC) with more people constantly moving in and out, there would have been more incentive to use them for other purposes. The reason why this crossed my mind on this particular thread is that if anyone is using them to track what Dale Schultz has referred to as "disturbed" people, then they are going to busy these days, with the number of letters being written, letters signed, questions asked. Would a 'Like' on a Facebook posting, say, be enough to earn you a black mark? I do remember those books. Still have one that my parents had. They had Sunday AM meeting so I thought it might just be the elders that got them. Also lists where meetings and union Sunday meetings were.
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