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Post by Admin on Jul 15, 2023 17:46:24 GMT -5
Ex-worker writes to the ministry
July 15 Dear workers,
I was once one of you. You are very familiar with parables and stories. I feel compelled to share this with you. I am trying to help you understand where I am, why I’m here, how I feel, and who did this to me. The only way I can do this justice is by telling you a story that describes that. Reading this will be (and should be) VERY uncomfortable for you. If you have an ounce of integrity, if you have any faith in Christ, if you have any feeling in your heart for souls beyond yourself, read this despite the discomfort.
I stand on the doorstep of your house. I knock, but expect no answer. How do I know I’m at the right place? There is no address. I can tell because this house is different than every other house I’ve passed. From them, I heard crying and wailing. I peeked in some of their windows and saw people weeping. What a pitiful state they were in! Their skin was covered with rashes where the uncomfortable sackcloth irritated it. Between their sobs they often coughed as dust from the ashes around them got caught in their throat.
But this house is different. The only sounds that might represent sorrow are the cries of “why me?” and “it’s not fair!” when another perpetrator gets caught. I peek through a window and listen in on the conversations. The discussions aren’t joyful, but they’re not repentant either. “How much longer must we endure this drudgery? Surely things will get back to the blissful normalcy we deserve soon!” The words are loud and clear, no one is sorry for them to be overheard.
Oh yes, I am at the right house. I struggle with the burden in my arms and knock again. Someone has been here before me. They tore the cover off of a copy of your gospel meeting hymn book. With a marker, they circled the part of the cover that carries the warning in small caps: “WORDS ONLY”. The cover has been nailed to the door as a warning to anyone who stops by expecting action, change, help, or even compassion. “WORDS ONLY”, no fruit here.
I’ve taken enough time. I need to keep moving. I leave my load on the stoop and walk away.
What will you find when you finally open the door? You will find the body of my faith, faith that has been with me for decades. Crushed and lifeless, totally broken beyond repair. Not my faith in “The Truth”, not my faith in a group of people, not my faith in a ministry.
This was my faith in the very existence of a kind and loving God.
Who did this?
You did. Time and again (beginning when I was a teenager), when I personally needed help, you were nowhere. When Dean Bruer’s truth was made public, you refused to expose the evildoers you knew about. You took so long to respond to the crisis that it is obvious your care was never for the victim-survivors. You care most of all for your own reputation and so you tried to hush the cries of the injured. I have never trusted wicked men to do the right thing, but I trusted you. You failed me and so many others. Your influence and false doctrine convinced people to write letters to judges in support for perpetrators — letters that called the victims liars.
You did this. You taught that hell was a place for those who disagreed with you. You spoke as an authority on things you could not have known. You had fellowship with abusers but said gay people were “confused”. You never asked a gay person what their relationship with God was like. Even today, the thought of a gay person existing and having a relationship with God fills you with discomfort and dread... and even if you feel otherwise you would never dare preach it because you love the praise of men more than the praise of the God you preach.
And what about your treatment of workers who leave the work? “WORDS ONLY”. This week a worker from this field went home because his young frame is worn out by this injustice. Did the overseer send him home with any financial help? Nope, we asked him. Overseers have proven to be very comfortable watching ex-workers suffer. You will preach about “love”, but you refuse to show it, or to even encourage your ex-workers to get counseling for the trauma you have caused. You refuse to give them funds to make that possible.
But not everyone in the work is an overseer! What about those who aren’t? What about brothers and sisters who aren’t in positions of leadership? There is no longer a distinction between good worker and bad worker. All who continue are a part of the ministry of destruction. You say you are powerless, but you have a voice. Have you used it? Have you been angry when you saw oppression? Have you valued souls in their agony enough to speak out? Have you been like most, frozen in fear of what you might suffer by speaking out loudly and definitely? Or have you been motivated by love to make things right for the injured and the oppressed?
What have you preached? Have you preached the doctrine of a creator who loved souls so much he made a plan with another part of his divine self to sacrifice him to purify souls? It is said that there was such love and unity between them that still today people debate whether God is one person or three. Was the doctrine you preached similarly united with the values of that divinity? Or was it a doctrine that “flesh is so bad, the world is so bad, you are so bad”, a doctrine that focused not on how marvelous God is, but rather on how right your form is?
Interestingly, scripture teaches that your God lives within people, but few ever felt pure enough to believe it. What if that message was supposed to be that Love lives within us? It does say that “God is love”. If there is a God and he is love, he has been sorely misrepresented by your actions and your inactions.
My faith is dead. Others’ faith is dying. You are the reason. You accuse people of trying to destroy God’s way, yet you refuse to be good or honest enough to admit that you are the force of destruction for so many children, parents, siblings, souls. Some of you say “But we are doing things! We are believing the victims! We are turning people in to authorities and assisting with investigations!” But you also justify the heavy loads you’ve laid on us when you didn’t understand, you’ve told us to stay in a toxic place, you’ve scolded us for being “rash” when we got fed up with the psychological injuries we’ve endured.
My faith is dead and you do not care.
Where is this purposeful stride taking me now? Where am I headed? I am going to the wilderness. You taught me that was a place to avoid, a place that is unsafe. There is nowhere less safe than your house. I am going to the wilderness. I am going to learn and to love. Love is the only thing I trust now. I know those who have loved me and I know those whom I have loved. I will meet others and love them, too. Is love divine? I don’t know. I do know love isn’t all-powerful. I do know love doesn’t know everything. I do know if there is a God someday he will teach me about himself through love. He will not punish me for letting go of false, hurtful, powerless doctrine. Even if there is no God, our love for one another can only make this life better.
So I am going to the wilderness. This is where you have driven me.
How many more souls must see their faith destroyed? How many others must you drive away before you repent? Make no mistake: CSA is a wicked fruit. You must deal with it now. However, if you only deal with the fruit and not with the root, wickedness will rise up again in time.
Why has your fellowship and your ministry become such a safe place for perpetrators? Why have sister workers gone from house to house teaching that the solution is for parents to do better at watching their children? Why do you refuse to clothe your spirit in sackcloth and sit in ashes? Why do you preach about repentance but prove to be wholly incapable and unwilling to practice it? What is it about your ministry that you are so proud of? What seems so righteous or good to you that you so willingly excuse all the wickedness, deceit, and coverups? And finally, Mr. Ray Hoffman, when you knew everything that Ira Hobbs had done, why did you write in a letter, “The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done, nor of Americo”? These are uncomfortable questions you must ask if you have any hope of the future being better. These are not questions I need to hear answered because I am done with “WORDS ONLY”. But there are others who still look to you expecting help. Do not destroy their faith as you have destroyed mine. You consider the blood of Jesus holy. If you believe that, then start treating the souls on whose behalf that blood was shed as holy as well.
Sincerely finished, Joel Riggs
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Post by Dan on Jul 16, 2023 2:23:45 GMT -5
A few quotations from the above letter;
"You will find the body of my faith, faith that has been with me for decades. Crushed and lifeless, totally broken beyond repair. My faith is dead. Others’ faith is dying. You are the reason. My faith is dead and you do not care. Do not destroy their faith as you have destroyed mine."
Kind of a sad commentary on where one places their faith. Paying homage to a church, ministry, group, or any belief system, can set a person up for a let down. People screw-up, that's why "There is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:11). Worshiping a way of life and putting all your trust in people, will cause one to stumble. I hope no ones faith is ruined, "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man" (Psalms 118:8).
I've posted this before, and now again since its still relevant in these difficult times.. Jesus said, "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22). The Way is Christ, the Truth is Christ, so who do you trust?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2023 2:57:45 GMT -5
A few quotations from the above letter;
"You will find the body of my faith, faith that has been with me for decades. Crushed and lifeless, totally broken beyond repair. My faith is dead. Others’ faith is dying. You are the reason. My faith is dead and you do not care. Do not destroy their faith as you have destroyed mine."
Kind of a sad commentary on where one places their faith. Paying homage to a church, ministry, group, or any belief system, can set a person up for a let down. People screw-up, that's why "There is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:11). Worshiping a way of life and putting all your trust in people, will cause one to stumble. I hope no ones faith is ruined, "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man" (Psalms 118:8).
I've posted this before, and now again since its still relevant in these difficult times.. Jesus said, "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22). The Way is Christ, the Truth is Christ, so who do you trust? I thought the same but figured it was wasted breath around here to say anything...
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2023 3:53:25 GMT -5
The Way is Christ, the Truth is Christ, so who do you trust? I thought the same but figured it was wasted breath around here to say anything... Funny thing is you've despised me for saying The Way is Christ, the Truth is Christ, over the years.
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Post by menatwork on Jul 16, 2023 4:38:45 GMT -5
A few quotations from the above letter;
"You will find the body of my faith, faith that has been with me for decades. Crushed and lifeless, totally broken beyond repair. My faith is dead. Others’ faith is dying. You are the reason. My faith is dead and you do not care. Do not destroy their faith as you have destroyed mine."
Kind of a sad commentary on where one places their faith. Paying homage to a church, ministry, group, or any belief system, can set a person up for a let down. People screw-up, that's why "There is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:11). Worshiping a way of life and putting all your trust in people, will cause one to stumble. I hope no ones faith is ruined, "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man" (Psalms 118:8). I've posted this before, and now again since its still relevant in these difficult times.. Jesus said, "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22). The Way is Christ, the Truth is Christ, so who do you trust? I think that’s a bit harsh Dan The preaching of the workers generally focuses on themselves and not Christ as Lord and Savior. They don’t preach faith in Christ and his substitutionary death on the cross for us as a means of salvation. They preach that the 2x2 church is the only right way for salvation and all other churches are false. The workers claim they hold the keys to salvation and that they have the power over peoples standing before God. (A friend of mine was told by an Overseer that his salvation hangs by a thread and that he can snip it at anytime!!) When people are subjected to this type of teaching continuously then it makes sense that their faith is shattered when the workers behave in shocking ways that don’t reflect the teachings of scripture. I agree that “The Way is Christ , the Truth is Christ” just a pity this is not taught and lived out by many workers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2023 7:45:21 GMT -5
The Way is Christ, the Truth is Christ, so who do you trust? I thought the same but figured it was wasted breath around here to say anything... I see I should have been more specific about which part of Dans post I was agreeing with. It wasn't that part. I'd like you to provide the post where I went after you for that though I doubt it happened that way at all. You've also screwed up the post cause it looks like you are saying I said exactly what Dan said...might want to fix that...
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Post by getreal on Jul 16, 2023 13:05:20 GMT -5
I don’t disagree with Wally/Dan thoughts above but I just want to say something in defense of this ex worker’s experience and everyone else who has been fooled and damaged by a church that pretended and still pretends to be something it is not. When you go to meetings as an outsider in particular you are told a story about a way and a ministry that is different and better and truer and of god more than all others. United the world over. Not suffering from the same problems. I remember after being in the work how I began to hear and see otherwise and the worker I professed through lamented, “oh you have been exposed!” So you all want to say, well you were just an idiot to believe that story!?! Of course it’s easier to be more informed now with the internet. Yes, you cast in your lot with this group believing the narrative you were fed. Yes, your faith in god is intertwined with faith in the group and the ministry. Yes, you can keep your spiritual faith but it takes a long time to untangle these 2 separate faiths. Faiths in the f and w way, and faith that is just in your heart for something bigger whatever that is. Of course it hurts like hell to find out you were lied to and deceived and then to hear from people like you that you were just an idiot to have any belief in the church? Why would you stay involved if it means so little to you?
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2023 15:50:02 GMT -5
I think that’s a bit harsh Dan The preaching of the workers generally focuses on themselves and not Christ as Lord and Savior. They don’t preach faith in Christ and his substitutionary death on the cross for us as a means of salvation. They preach that the 2x2 church is the only right way for salvation and all other churches are false. The workers claim they hold the keys to salvation and that they have the power over peoples standing before God. (A friend of mine was told by an Overseer that his salvation hangs by a thread and that he can snip it at anytime!!) When people are subjected to this type of teaching continuously then it makes sense that their faith is shattered when the workers behave in shocking ways that don’t reflect the teachings of scripture. I agree that “The Way is Christ , the Truth is Christ” just a pity this is not taught and lived out by many workers. For a man or an organisation to claim control over someone's salvation is way out of line.
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Post by Dan on Jul 16, 2023 15:52:12 GMT -5
I think that’s a bit harsh Dan The preaching of the workers generally focuses on themselves and not Christ as Lord and Savior. They don’t preach faith in Christ and his substitutionary death on the cross for us as a means of salvation. They preach that the 2x2 church is the only right way for salvation and all other churches are false. The workers claim they hold the keys to salvation and that they have the power over peoples standing before God. (A friend of mine was told by an Overseer that his salvation hangs by a thread and that he can snip it at anytime!!) When people are subjected to this type of teaching continuously then it makes sense that their faith is shattered when the workers behave in shocking ways that don’t reflect the teachings of scripture. I agree that “The Way is Christ , the Truth is Christ” just a pity this is not taught and lived out by many workers.
It may have been a tad harsh, but you essentially reiterated my point. I'm not unsympathetic to a person who's been conditioned to believe that the path to heaven is through a church group. Kudos to every sincere church that teaches the bible, but its tragic when one gets confused about who exactly is the guarantor of eternal life.
To be honest, I believe most Workers share the simple truth that salvation is through Christ and Christ alone. The fallacy is that, "We follow Jesus so we are right, and everyone not like us is wrong". That initially sounds logical, but its a not so subtle self-righteous proclamation that 'There is One Way and We are it'. So its no wonder that people feel condemned if they don't get onboard and yield to that method of control.
Your example of an Overseer claiming that he had the authority to snip ones salvation at any time is tantamount to elevating himself to a self-authorized seat of judgement. Its no wonder that God is knocking the pedestal out from under a few of them. But I know that type of attitude is not pervasive among Workers, most are cognizant that the meek shall inherit the earth and are anxious to put the recent scandals to bed and restore the dignity of what they've given their lives to do.
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2023 16:02:21 GMT -5
Some workers interpret the following to give themselves power over what will be bound and loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
The Amplified version is more helpful on verse 19:
19 I will give you the keys (authority) of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind [forbid, declare to be improper and unlawful] on earth will have [already] been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose [permit, declare lawful] on earth will have [already] been loosed in heaven.”
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Peony
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Post by Peony on Jul 16, 2023 17:01:32 GMT -5
Fixit - this very much distresses me. I know many workers feel this is their authority and they excommunicate or restrict people who have a sincere love for the word of God and meetings/fellowship. I cannot believe that the God of heaven and His perfect Son, our redeemer, would be more strict today than the Son was when he was on earth: He walked with and touched lepers. He didn't berate either the woman "caught in adultery" (where was the man?) or the woman at the well in Samaria. He corrected his disciples who wanted not to be bothered with little children. He saw people in all their need and restored them, he didn't cut them off. I'm at a loss about how workers can in good conscience tell people they can't take part, or be baptized, or take communion. They take the position of judge/jury/executioner so readily; I can only imagine this hubris grieves the heart of God.
And, yes, I do not understand fully these verses or Matt. 18:18 and how they apply today. Surely Jesus didn't mean that people who do not have the Spirit of the Lamb would have these powers.
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2023 17:27:11 GMT -5
Fixit - this very much distresses me. I know many workers feel this is their authority and they excommunicate or restrict people who have a sincere love for the word of God and meetings/fellowship. I cannot believe that the God of heaven and His perfect Son, our redeemer, would be more strict today than the Son was when he was on earth: He walked with and touched lepers. He didn't berate either the woman "caught in adultery" (where was the man?) or the woman at the well in Samaria. He corrected his disciples who wanted not to be bothered with little children. He saw people in all their need and restored them, he didn't cut them off. I'm at a loss about how workers can in good conscience tell people they can't take part, or be baptized, or take communion. They take the position of judge/jury/executioner so readily; I can only imagine this hubris grieves the heart of God. And, yes, I do not understand fully these verses or Matt. 18:18 and how they apply today. Surely Jesus didn't mean that people who do not have the Spirit of the Lamb would have these powers. Well said. I believe what Jesus meant was his revelation from God, the spirit of God in Peter, would enable him to bind on Earth was has already been bound in heaven, and to loose on earth was has already been loosed in heaven. Man in his folly takes it to mean that heaven is giving them authority. The controlling spirit must cease. It has gone on too long. Jesus brought relief to the religious burdens of his day. Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’s seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it, but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others, but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. 1 Peter 5:1 Now as an elder myself and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as one who shares in the glory to be revealed, I exhort the elders among you 2 to tend the flock of God that is in your charge, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion but willingly, as God would have you do it, not for sordid gain but eagerly. 3 Do not lord it over those in your charge, but be examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief shepherd appears, you will win the crown of glory that never fades away. 5 In the same way, you who are younger must be subject to the elders. And all of you must clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time.
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Post by passingby on Jul 16, 2023 21:42:10 GMT -5
I don’t disagree with Wally/Dan thoughts above but I just want to say something in defense of this ex worker’s experience and everyone else who has been fooled and damaged by a church that pretended and still pretends to be something it is not. When you go to meetings as an outsider in particular you are told a story about a way and a ministry that is different and better and truer and of god more than all others. United the world over. Not suffering from the same problems. I remember after being in the work how I began to hear and see otherwise and the worker I professed through lamented, “oh you have been exposed!” So you all want to say, well you were just an idiot to believe that story!?! Of course it’s easier to be more informed now with the internet. Yes, you cast in your lot with this group believing the narrative you were fed. Yes, your faith in god is intertwined with faith in the group and the ministry. Yes, you can keep your spiritual faith but it takes a long time to untangle these 2 separate faiths. Faiths in the f and w way, and faith that is just in your heart for something bigger whatever that is. Of course it hurts like hell to find out you were lied to and deceived and then to hear from people like you that you were just an idiot to have any belief in the church? Why would you stay involved if it means so little to you? "...everyone else who has been fooled and damaged by a church that pretended and still pretends to be something it is not..." IMO that's true of every church. since whatever the God is worshiped is a man made construct. I would also disagree with "...pretended and still pretends to be..." Although the pretending part is probably true of those going through the exit process, but still hanging on pretending to believe. But there are many in every church of whom it could be honestly said "... believed and still believing..." but it's also true in all cases unfortunately - in something it is not. There's no shame or need to feel the idiot for the desire of idealism. That's rather admirable actually. Keep that!. I personally find it to be a relief to let go of the necessity of it being in some religion. I find it a happy truth that it can be found in various ways in many people, - even my brother, who is MAGA, gold embroidered hat, Trumper, even if Trump were to pull out a gun and shoot someone in the middle of Times Square.
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Post by passingby on Jul 16, 2023 21:55:36 GMT -5
A few quotations from the above letter;
"You will find the body of my faith, faith that has been with me for decades. Crushed and lifeless, totally broken beyond repair. My faith is dead. Others’ faith is dying. You are the reason. My faith is dead and you do not care. Do not destroy their faith as you have destroyed mine."
Kind of a sad commentary on where one places their faith. Paying homage to a church, ministry, group, or any belief system, can set a person up for a let down. People screw-up, that's why "There is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:11). Worshiping a way of life and putting all your trust in people, will cause one to stumble. I hope no ones faith is ruined, "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man" (Psalms 118:8). I've posted this before, and now again since its still relevant in these difficult times.. Jesus said, "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22). The Way is Christ, the Truth is Christ, so who do you trust? I think that’s a bit harsh Dan The preaching of the workers generally focuses on themselves and not Christ as Lord and Savior. They don’t preach faith in Christ and his substitutionary death on the cross for us as a means of salvation. They preach that the 2x2 church is the only right way for salvation and all other churches are false. The workers claim they hold the keys to salvation and that they have the power over peoples standing before God. (A friend of mine was told by an Overseer that his salvation hangs by a thread and that he can snip it at anytime!!) When people are subjected to this type of teaching continuously then it makes sense that their faith is shattered when the workers behave in shocking ways that don’t reflect the teachings of scripture. I agree that “The Way is Christ , the Truth is Christ” just a pity this is not taught and lived out by many workers. Different people hear different things, I'd have to say I too heard what Dan and Wally did. Why didn't you I wonder? Who was speaking to you in those meetings? How do some "get it" and you didn't? Why do you blame others because you were deaf dumb and blind. Of course people have, and always will behave is shocking ways that don't reflect the teachings of scripture. (whatever that is interpreted to b, depending on which church you hold to) But I would think it would reinforce the sense of faith to be taught, and discover that there ARE people who believe that the blood of Christ covers those offending workers too. That Christ Jesus paid the price of their sin, whether you like it or not.
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Post by getreal on Jul 16, 2023 22:22:01 GMT -5
Instead of critiquing the ex worker for losing his faith, which yes of course was misplaced and needed to be lost, what about addressing all the questions he asks the workers at the end of his letter. I think the responses to this letter have overlooked the real issues here. Victim blaming again. Deflection. The problems he is pointing out with all the hundreds of others are real. Are you saying they aren’t real. His suffering isn’t real. All the suffering? I read hundreds of postings with the same sorrow in every word. Why pick on this worker.
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Post by passingby on Jul 16, 2023 22:36:16 GMT -5
Instead of critiquing the ex worker for losing his faith, which yes of course was misplaced and needed to be lost, what about addressing all the questions he asks the workers at the end of his letter. I think the responses to this letter have overlooked the real issues here. Victim blaming again. Deflection. The problems he is pointing out with all the hundreds of others are real. Are you saying they aren’t real. His suffering isn’t real. All the suffering? I read hundreds of postings with the same sorrow in every word. Why pick on this worker. Good point, blaming the victims, but I think your focus is too narrow. How about the victims the OP blames, who believed in and preached a God who promises Peace, not as the world giveth, but one that passeth all understanding. The great physician in the sky who can heal the sick and broken hearted. Which the OP and the other hundreds you mention prove to be Bollocks.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 17, 2023 0:57:45 GMT -5
Instead of critiquing the ex worker for losing his faith, which yes of course was misplaced and needed to be lost, what about addressing all the questions he asks the workers at the end of his letter. I think the responses to this letter have overlooked the real issues here. Victim blaming again. Deflection. The problems he is pointing out with all the hundreds of others are real. Are you saying they aren’t real. His suffering isn’t real. All the suffering? I read hundreds of postings with the same sorrow in every word. Why pick on this worker. Good point, blaming the victims, but I think your focus is too narrow. How about the victims the OP blames, who believed in and preached a God who promises Peace, not as the world giveth, but one that passeth all understanding. The great physician in the sky who can heal the sick and broken hearted. Which the OP and the other hundreds you mention prove to be Bollocks. Once one understands that Genesis one is not backed up by factual evidence then the rest of the bible becomes irrelevant.
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Post by countryroads on Jul 17, 2023 13:28:40 GMT -5
Does anyone have contact information for Joel Riggs?
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Post by Dan on Jul 18, 2023 1:28:32 GMT -5
Good point, blaming the victims, but I think your focus is too narrow. How about the victims the OP blames, who believed in and preached a God who promises Peace, not as the world giveth, but one that passeth all understanding. The great physician in the sky who can heal the sick and broken hearted. Which the OP and the other hundreds you mention prove to be Bollocks. Once one understands that Genesis one is not backed up by factual evidence then the rest of the bible becomes irrelevant.
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Post by mountain on Jul 18, 2023 2:54:51 GMT -5
Good point, blaming the victims, but I think your focus is too narrow. How about the victims the OP blames, who believed in and preached a God who promises Peace, not as the world giveth, but one that passeth all understanding. The great physician in the sky who can heal the sick and broken hearted. Which the OP and the other hundreds you mention prove to be Bollocks. Once one understands that Genesis one is not backed up by factual evidence then the rest of the bible becomes irrelevant. The left hand is worthy of equal consideration as the right hand (Wally, 2023). Doth not the quail keep its hiding in the grass, betraying its presence only when it calleth for a mate? (Wally again, 2023). Your statement should read: 'Once one has been shown proof beyond reasonable doubt that an alternative explanation to the account given in Genesis is indeed the truth, then the rest of the bible becomes irrelevant.' An open mind is a sound mind (Wally, yet again, 2023).
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 18, 2023 15:19:03 GMT -5
I don’t disagree with Wally/Dan thoughts above but I just want to say something in defense of this ex worker’s experience and everyone else who has been fooled and damaged by a church that pretended and still pretends to be something it is not. When you go to meetings as an outsider in particular you are told a story about a way and a ministry that is different and better and truer and of god more than all others. United the world over. Not suffering from the same problems. I remember after being in the work how I began to hear and see otherwise and the worker I professed through lamented, “oh you have been exposed!” So you all want to say, well you were just an idiot to believe that story!?! Of course it’s easier to be more informed now with the internet. Yes, you cast in your lot with this group believing the narrative you were fed. Yes, your faith in god is intertwined with faith in the group and the ministry. Yes, you can keep your spiritual faith but it takes a long time to untangle these 2 separate faiths. Faiths in the f and w way, and faith that is just in your heart for something bigger whatever that is. Of course it hurts like hell to find out you were lied to and deceived and then to hear from people like you that you were just an idiot to have any belief in the church? Why would you stay involved if it means so little to you?Ditto
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Post by Dan on Jul 18, 2023 16:35:13 GMT -5
I don’t disagree with Wally/Dan thoughts above but I just want to say something in defense of this ex worker’s experience and everyone else who has been fooled and damaged by a church that pretended and still pretends to be something it is not. When you go to meetings as an outsider in particular you are told a story about a way and a ministry that is different and better and truer and of god more than all others. United the world over. Not suffering from the same problems. I remember after being in the work how I began to hear and see otherwise and the worker I professed through lamented, “oh you have been exposed!” So you all want to say, well you were just an idiot to believe that story!?! Of course it’s easier to be more informed now with the internet. Yes, you cast in your lot with this group believing the narrative you were fed. Yes, your faith in god is intertwined with faith in the group and the ministry. Yes, you can keep your spiritual faith but it takes a long time to untangle these 2 separate faiths. Faiths in the f and w way, and faith that is just in your heart for something bigger whatever that is. Of course it hurts like hell to find out you were lied to and deceived and then to hear from people like you that you were just an idiot to have any belief in the church? Why would you stay involved if it means so little to you?
Speaking for myself, I never looked at the church as the path to salvation, but just a vehicle that guides people to the Truth. So I guess that's why I never had a difficult time, my faith in God was never intermingled with man. I accepted what I agreed with and went rogue with anything that didn't make sense. I still believe its a sincere group that tries to follow the bible, but they tend to make it a tough road to hoe. Jesus said "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light", but I felt they made being a Christian much harder than it was intended to be with rules and restrictions that had no real biblical support.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 18, 2023 17:00:41 GMT -5
I don’t disagree with Wally/Dan thoughts above but I just want to say something in defense of this ex worker’s experience and everyone else who has been fooled and damaged by a church that pretended and still pretends to be something it is not. When you go to meetings as an outsider in particular you are told a story about a way and a ministry that is different and better and truer and of god more than all others. United the world over. Not suffering from the same problems. I remember after being in the work how I began to hear and see otherwise and the worker I professed through lamented, “oh you have been exposed!” So you all want to say, well you were just an idiot to believe that story!?! Of course it’s easier to be more informed now with the internet. Yes, you cast in your lot with this group believing the narrative you were fed. Yes, your faith in god is intertwined with faith in the group and the ministry. Yes, you can keep your spiritual faith but it takes a long time to untangle these 2 separate faiths. Faiths in the f and w way, and faith that is just in your heart for something bigger whatever that is. Of course it hurts like hell to find out you were lied to and deceived and then to hear from people like you that you were just an idiot to have any belief in the church? Why would you stay involved if it means so little to you?
Speaking for myself, I never looked at the church as the path to salvation, but just a vehicle that guides people to the Truth. So I guess that's why I never had a difficult time, my faith in God was never intermingled with man. I accepted what I agreed with and went rogue with anything that didn't make sense. I still believe its a sincere group that tries to follow the bible, but they tend to make it a tough road to hoe. Jesus said "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light", but I felt they made being a Christian much harder than it was intended to be with rules and restrictions that had no real biblical support.
That's right, one nicked the money and four got book deals.
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