|
Why
Jul 10, 2023 9:43:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by margaret on Jul 10, 2023 9:43:00 GMT -5
|
|
|
Why
Jul 10, 2023 10:02:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by verna on Jul 10, 2023 10:02:16 GMT -5
A lot of really excellent questions.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Why
Jul 10, 2023 14:41:31 GMT -5
Dan likes this
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 14:41:31 GMT -5
Uh huh. Satan is the father of lies. Sounds like someone has been listening to him.
As rational would say back in the day. I55...
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 10, 2023 15:49:03 GMT -5
Those have been my questions for years. I am an atheist because believing in gods just doesn't make any sense to me. Depending on our culture will depend on what kind of a god we think exists. It's very obvious to me that we create gods and they don't create us. Blaming things on Satan doesn't make sense to me. I really liked her question about the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve. According to the bible when Adam and Eve 'fell from grace', they hadn't even eaten from the tree of knowledge yet. They literally wouldn't have known to disobey god was wrong. That wouldn't have been in their skill set until after Eve ate the apple. And by then as we see, it would be too late. They were set up to fail if you believe in that god at all. How I see it anyway.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 10, 2023 18:32:12 GMT -5
Those have been my questions for years. I am an atheist because believing in gods just doesn't make any sense to me. Depending on our culture will depend on what kind of a god we think exists. It's very obvious to me that we create gods and they don't create us. Blaming things on Satan doesn't make sense to me. I really liked her question about the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve. According to the bible when Adam and Eve 'fell from grace', they hadn't even eaten from the tree of knowledge yet. They literally wouldn't have known to disobey god was wrong. That wouldn't have been in their skill set until after Eve ate the apple. And by then as we see, it would be too late. They were set up to fail if you believe in that god at all. How I see it anyway. Where does it say that Adam and Eve fell from grace before they ate from the tree? Thank you
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 11:16:02 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2023 11:16:02 GMT -5
Those have been my questions for years. I am an atheist because believing in gods just doesn't make any sense to me. Depending on our culture will depend on what kind of a god we think exists. It's very obvious to me that we create gods and they don't create us. Blaming things on Satan doesn't make sense to me. I really liked her question about the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve. According to the bible when Adam and Eve 'fell from grace', they hadn't even eaten from the tree of knowledge yet. They literally wouldn't have known to disobey god was wrong. That wouldn't have been in their skill set until after Eve ate the apple. And by then as we see, it would be too late. They were set up to fail if you believe in that god at all. How I see it anyway. Where does it say that Adam and Eve fell from grace before they ate from the tree? Thank you Adam and Eve fell from grace after they ate from the tree of knowledge. So when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would not know it was wrong. I worded that wrong. They knew it was wrong after they did it is what I was trying to say. But when they did it they didn't know until they did it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 11:21:04 GMT -5
snow likes this
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 11:21:04 GMT -5
Where does it say that Adam and Eve fell from grace before they ate from the tree? Thank you Adam and Eve fell from grace after they ate from the tree of knowledge. So when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would not know it was wrong. I worded that wrong. They knew it was wrong after they did it is what I was trying to say. But when they did it they didn't know until they did it. Yes, correct snow. It is a strange thing, but things were different BEFORE the fall we don't know how it worked. So, no knowledge of sin, yet sinned...
|
|
|
Post by margaret on Jul 11, 2023 12:03:20 GMT -5
Adam and Eve fell from grace after they ate from the tree of knowledge. So when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would not know it was wrong. I worded that wrong. They knew it was wrong after they did it is what I was trying to say. But when they did it they didn't know until they did it. Yes, correct snow. It is a strange thing, but things were different BEFORE the fall we don't know how it worked. So, no knowledge of sin, yet sinned... Did they not know it was wrong? Didn’t God tell them not to eat it? Wouldn’t that have told them it was wrong?
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 12:56:27 GMT -5
maryhig likes this
Post by Dan on Jul 11, 2023 12:56:27 GMT -5
Yes, correct snow. It is a strange thing, but things were different BEFORE the fall we don't know how it worked. So, no knowledge of sin, yet sinned... Did they not know it was wrong? Didn’t God tell them not to eat it? Wouldn’t that have told them it was wrong?
Absolutely... Eve even recited the command to the serpent (Genesis 3:2). They both knew it was wrong before doing it.. All sin is, is disobedience to God. Eve trusted the serpent (vs 4), who Jesus called a liar from the beginning (John 8:44).
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2023 13:00:18 GMT -5
Yes, correct snow. It is a strange thing, but things were different BEFORE the fall we don't know how it worked. So, no knowledge of sin, yet sinned... Did they not know it was wrong? Didn’t God tell them not to eat it? Wouldn’t that have told them it was wrong? Adam and Eve were told specifically NOT to eat from the tree of good and evil for they would surely die (become mortal). When tempted by the serpent, Eve's FIRST response was 'But God hath said?' Adam and Eve knew that man should not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from God's mouth. That they had this knowledge is absolutely clear in their recorded actions and statements at the time.
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 13:25:04 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2023 13:25:04 GMT -5
Yes, correct snow. It is a strange thing, but things were different BEFORE the fall we don't know how it worked. So, no knowledge of sin, yet sinned... Did they not know it was wrong? Didn’t God tell them not to eat it? Wouldn’t that have told them it was wrong? Not if you have no idea that it is wrong to do something you were told not to do. You have to remember they had no concept of right or wrong when they ate the apple. They only had that knowledge after they ate it. Then it was too late.
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 14:10:21 GMT -5
via mobile
snow likes this
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 11, 2023 14:10:21 GMT -5
Ahhhh. The talking snake story again. Got to love how this mythology keeps people entranced so much that they base their lives on it.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2023 15:10:34 GMT -5
Ahhhh. The talking snake story again. Got to love how this mythology keeps people entranced so much that they base their lives on it. Mythology eh? Next you'll be refuting talking donkeys!
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 15:18:03 GMT -5
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 11, 2023 15:18:03 GMT -5
Ahhhh. The talking snake story again. Got to love how this mythology keeps people entranced so much that they base their lives on it. Mythology eh? Next you'll be refuting talking donkeys! Good idea. Then I might mention too that your mythical god can cause donkeys and snakes to talk but cannot do anything about workers who want to have sex with children or other mens wives or fellow workers. Your god seems a bit selective in how it shows its power.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 15:33:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 15:33:44 GMT -5
Yes, correct snow. It is a strange thing, but things were different BEFORE the fall we don't know how it worked. So, no knowledge of sin, yet sinned... Did they not know it was wrong? Didn’t God tell them not to eat it? Wouldn’t that have told them it was wrong? From the Web FWIW, A sin is always wrong but a wrong is not always a sin. Maybe a different word is needed?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2023 15:38:03 GMT -5
Mythology eh? Next you'll be refuting talking donkeys! Good idea. Then I might mention too that your mythical god can cause donkeys and snakes to talk but cannot do anything about workers who want to have sex with children or other mens wives or fellow workers. Your god seems a bit selective in how it shows its power. I think I'd prefer having snakes and donkeys talking than having workers being CSA predators...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 15:47:22 GMT -5
snow and Dan like this
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 15:47:22 GMT -5
A lot of pretty good questions...
“To the dumb question "Why me?" the cosmos barely bothers to return the reply: why not?” - C. Hitchens
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 11, 2023 15:52:18 GMT -5
Where does it say that Adam and Eve fell from grace before they ate from the tree? Thank you Adam and Eve fell from grace after they ate from the tree of knowledge. So when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would not know it was wrong. I worded that wrong. They knew it was wrong after they did it is what I was trying to say. But when they did it they didn't know until they did it. No they did know because God told them not to eat off it before they did anything, and they didn't obey his word. Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And then Eve said this (below) when questioned by the devil, after he craftily said hath God said you shall not eat off every tree in the garden? Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. So she knew not to do it and so did Adam, we are not to disobey God, we are to do what's right before him and obey his word, turn from sin and bring his love to others and Jesus showed us the way perfectly, he did what Adam couldn't do, he obeyed God, lived by his will and denied himself bringing us a new and living way to follow, because he has lived out the way for all to see and that way brings us from death to life when we repent and truly follow him in word and deed.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 11, 2023 15:57:43 GMT -5
Ahhhh. The talking snake story again. Got to love how this mythology keeps people entranced so much that they base their lives on it. It's got a deeper meaning as seen clearly, there is no such thing as a natural tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and we can clearly see the serpent is the devil not an actual snake.
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 16:01:34 GMT -5
verna likes this
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2023 16:01:34 GMT -5
Adam and Eve fell from grace after they ate from the tree of knowledge. So when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would not know it was wrong. I worded that wrong. They knew it was wrong after they did it is what I was trying to say. But when they did it they didn't know until they did it. No they did know because God told them not to eat off it before they did anything, and they didn't obey his word. Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And then Eve said this (below) when questioned by the devil, after he craftily said hath God said you shall not eat off every tree in the garden? Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. So she knew not to do it and so did Adam, we are not to disobey God, we are to do what's right before him and obey his word, turn from sin and bring his love to others and Jesus showed us the way perfectly, he did what Adam couldn't do, he obeyed God, lived by his will and denied himself bringing us a new and living way to follow, because he has lived out the way for all to see and that way brings us from death to life when we repent and truly follow him in word and deed. How can they know that not doing what God wants was wrong when they didn't know the difference yet between wrong and right, good and evil? That doesn't jive. That's like telling a 3 month old child not to do something and then when they do it blame them saying they were told not to.
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 16:03:43 GMT -5
verna likes this
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2023 16:03:43 GMT -5
Ahhhh. The talking snake story again. Got to love how this mythology keeps people entranced so much that they base their lives on it. It's got a deeper meaning as seen clearly, there is no such thing as a natural tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and we can clearly see the serpent is the devil not an actual snake. It's all just a story. That's why it makes very little logical sense. It's got to be understood symbolically by those who wish to interpret it as relevant. Like Grimm's stories, they never took place, but they usually had a moral to the story, a meaning.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 11, 2023 16:22:59 GMT -5
No they did know because God told them not to eat off it before they did anything, and they didn't obey his word. Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And then Eve said this (below) when questioned by the devil, after he craftily said hath God said you shall not eat off every tree in the garden? Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. So she knew not to do it and so did Adam, we are not to disobey God, we are to do what's right before him and obey his word, turn from sin and bring his love to others and Jesus showed us the way perfectly, he did what Adam couldn't do, he obeyed God, lived by his will and denied himself bringing us a new and living way to follow, because he has lived out the way for all to see and that way brings us from death to life when we repent and truly follow him in word and deed. How can they know that not doing what God wants was wrong when they didn't know the difference yet between wrong and right, good and evil? That doesn't jive. That's like telling a 3 month old child not to do something and then when they do it blame them saying they were told not to. Because they clearly understood what not to do, she was nothing like a three month old child, she had full understanding, as Eve repeated what God told her not to do, so she knew, and a three month old child can't do that as it has no understanding, it's innocent. But she was tempted by the devil and fell for it, the serpent told her she shall not surely die, (a bit like the churches teach now when they teach once saved always saved, even if you sin you won't be separated from God, in other words you won't surely die) but sin brings forth death which is separation from God, and Adam and Eve where clearly told this and they were clearly told not to eat off that tree and they were put out of the garden and separated from God for doing so, dead to God, and the only way back in was by eating off the tree of life again and to eat and live forever, the tree which is protected by flaming sword which turns every way to keep the way of the tree of life. This flaming sword is the word of God. The tree of life is Christ Jesus, he is the way the truth and the life, and he is the one baring the good fruits that brings life and we are to eat off it, (take in his life and word) and live by it and do what's right before God and live. Eve fell when she saw that the tree was good for food and pleasant to the eyes, even though God said it was wrong to eat from it, (this is the tree with evil fruits, the one with the serpent, the devil in the midst who knows good and evil). She was tempted and she took the fruits because it pleased her, she put herself before God and disobeyed him. And we can do the same when we put the lusts of the flesh before the living God and do what's wrong before him to please ourselves.
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 16:37:32 GMT -5
Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2023 16:37:32 GMT -5
No they did know because God told them not to eat off it before they did anything, and they didn't obey his word. Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And then Eve said this (below) when questioned by the devil, after he craftily said hath God said you shall not eat off every tree in the garden? Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. So she knew not to do it and so did Adam, we are not to disobey God, we are to do what's right before him and obey his word, turn from sin and bring his love to others and Jesus showed us the way perfectly, he did what Adam couldn't do, he obeyed God, lived by his will and denied himself bringing us a new and living way to follow, because he has lived out the way for all to see and that way brings us from death to life when we repent and truly follow him in word and deed. How can they know that not doing what God wants was wrong when they didn't know the difference yet between wrong and right, good and evil? That doesn't jive. That's like telling a 3 month old child not to do something and then when they do it blame them saying they were told not to.It's my understanding that Adam and Eve were created adult beings, not toddlers. They were clearly told what they could do and what they must not do. It's fairly simple.
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 16:51:30 GMT -5
Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2023 16:51:30 GMT -5
Mythology eh? Next you'll be refuting talking donkeys! Good idea. Then I might mention too that your mythical god can cause donkeys and snakes to talk but cannot do anything about workers who want to have sex with children or other mens wives or fellow workers. Your god seems a bit selective in how it shows its power. Selectiveness is one way of putting it. For whatever reason God restrains himself from intervening in many matters which defy human understanding. I like what Wally has proselytised over the years (but no one listens). God gave man dominion over his creation. That responsibility still stands today. The plan was that man would be in subjection to God, living by every word that proceedeth out of God's mouth, but man chose not to believe in talking snakes and donkeys and has been left to his own devices ever since. The course of the world is for fallen man. Only those who pick themselves up can escape that inevitable course towards destruction. God does intervene along the way according to his own purpose and will, but by and large whilst we are here we have to suffer our share along with everyone else. It's not for us to reason why, It's for us to do and die, Into the valley of death, Rode the
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 16:51:47 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2023 16:51:47 GMT -5
How can they know that not doing what God wants was wrong when they didn't know the difference yet between wrong and right, good and evil? That doesn't jive. That's like telling a 3 month old child not to do something and then when they do it blame them saying they were told not to.It's my understanding that Adam and Eve were created adult beings, not toddlers. They were clearly told what they could do and what they must not do. It's fairly simple. They were completely innocent like a baby. They were created in an adult body, but god did not give them the knowledge of good and evil and he didn't want them to even have the knowledge of good and evil. You cannot blame a being of doing something wrong when they have no concept of that and that concept has been withheld from them.
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 16:57:34 GMT -5
Post by mountain on Jul 11, 2023 16:57:34 GMT -5
It's my understanding that Adam and Eve were created adult beings, not toddlers. They were clearly told what they could do and what they must not do. It's fairly simple. They were completely innocent like a baby. They were created in an adult body, but god did not give them the knowledge of good and evil and he didn't want them to even have the knowledge of good and evil. You cannot blame a being of doing something wrong when they have no concept of that and that concept has been withheld from them. They were innocent, but not like a baby. A baby lacks awareness and understanding. God would not have given Adam and Eve important instructions if they could not understand them. Do and don't are pretty easy to understand. A dog learns them quickly. I guess serpents do as well? Didn't Wally tell us that Adam and Eve had a higher understanding than the knowledge of good and evil? Did he not say that higher standard that they were created with was a knowledge of righteousness, i.e. living by every word that God has spoken? Did Wally not inform us that Adam and Eve fell way from this higher standard of living by every word of God (righteousness), to a lower standard of knowledge of good and evil? A & E were created righteous beings, knowing only God and his will, but soon became unrighteous beings filled with what we call human nature, which replaced the Godly nature they were created with. As Wally attests to, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit returns us to this higher standard that we were created to follow. We are indeed fortunate that Wally, unlike some others in the past, has not (yet) done a bunk and left us spiritually destitute.
|
|
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 17:35:55 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jul 11, 2023 17:35:55 GMT -5
They were completely innocent like a baby. They were created in an adult body, but god did not give them the knowledge of good and evil and he didn't want them to even have the knowledge of good and evil. You cannot blame a being of doing something wrong when they have no concept of that and that concept has been withheld from them. They were innocent, but not like a baby. A baby lacks awareness and understanding. God would not have given Adam and Eve important instructions if they could not understand them. Do and don't are pretty easy to understand. A dog learns them quickly. I guess serpents do as well? Didn't Wally tell us that Adam and Eve had a higher understanding than the knowledge of good and evil? Did he not say that higher standard that they were created with was a knowledge of righteousness, i.e. living by every word that God has spoken? Did Wally not inform us that Adam and Eve fell way from this higher standard of living by every word of God (righteousness), to a lower standard of knowledge of good and evil? A & E were created righteous beings, knowing only God and his will, but soon became unrighteous beings filled with what we call human nature, which replaced the Godly nature they were created with. As Wally attests to, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit returns us to this higher standard that we were created to follow. We are indeed fortunate that Wally, unlike some others in the past, has not (yet) done a bunk and left us spiritually destitute. lol wally has replaced your last mentor!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Why
Jul 11, 2023 19:34:27 GMT -5
snow likes this
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 19:34:27 GMT -5
They were innocent, but not like a baby. A baby lacks awareness and understanding. God would not have given Adam and Eve important instructions if they could not understand them. Do and don't are pretty easy to understand. A dog learns them quickly. I guess serpents do as well? Didn't Wally tell us that Adam and Eve had a higher understanding than the knowledge of good and evil? Did he not say that higher standard that they were created with was a knowledge of righteousness, i.e. living by every word that God has spoken? Did Wally not inform us that Adam and Eve fell way from this higher standard of living by every word of God (righteousness), to a lower standard of knowledge of good and evil? A & E were created righteous beings, knowing only God and his will, but soon became unrighteous beings filled with what we call human nature, which replaced the Godly nature they were created with. As Wally attests to, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit returns us to this higher standard that we were created to follow. We are indeed fortunate that Wally, unlike some others in the past, has not (yet) done a bunk and left us spiritually destitute. lol wally has replaced your last mentor! Oh Lordy...
|
|