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Post by passingby on Jun 25, 2023 18:14:12 GMT -5
This past week near me one of the youth pastors in a born again church was sentenced for repeated sexual contact with one of his 13 yr old advisees, plus several incidents with several others. But what prompted this note was something I heard on NPR that I think might be of interest. But I could be wrong. here's a link to walk in someone else's shoes outside the world of 2x2. I'd recommend the audio simply because you hear his voice www.npr.org/2023/06/25/1183227484/jon-ward-evangelical-religion-donald-trump-bookHere's a couple outtakes I found worth repeating 1: Truth Religion and the Holy Bible truth is not a set of answers that you begin with and then retroactively fit the questions to. 2: The resistance of religious leaders, from Catholics to evangelicals, to 2x2's to involve "the Law" regarding things like CSA If you are continually operating in a world where you believe God is speaking to you, and as a leader speaking to you in a particular way, and that you have answers about ultimate reality and right and wrong that other people don't have, I think it actually predisposes you to think that you know better than law enforcement or anyone who's not in your world and doesn't think like you. I think a lot of that cover up was them saying, "We're going to handle things internally according to the way we think is best and that's the right thing to do." 3: Humility regarding The Truth as you see it I still affirm a lot of the same core teachings of Christianity ...., but I hold it with a more open hand and a sense of epistemic modesty. The sense of being aware of how much we don't know and embracing the sense that I could be wrong
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Post by deepdeep on Jun 26, 2023 9:16:03 GMT -5
Re: point 2....The decisions to not involve law enforcement in abuse cases (child, adult, whatever) is widespread across secular and religious groups. Everybody likes to wring their hands when church leaders advise against it but the mere fact that they are "religious" tells us nothing about the proximal cause of that advice. Distrust of outside authorities stems from the experiences of people who have been mistreated by that authority. If you want to just stack abuse ... law enforcement in the United states has no moral authority to wag their finger at church leaders who try to deal with issues internally. When it comes to power tripping, megalomaniac narcissists...the amount of them in authority in church's pales in comparison to the amount who are issued a gun and tasked with "keeping the peace".
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Post by getreal on Jun 26, 2023 14:57:45 GMT -5
Re: point 2....The decisions to not involve law enforcement in abuse cases (child, adult, whatever) is widespread across secular and religious groups. Everybody likes to wring their hands when church leaders advise against it but the mere fact that they are "religious" tells us nothing about the proximal cause of that advice. Distrust of outside authorities stems from the experiences of people who have been mistreated by that authority. If you want to just stack abuse ... law enforcement in the United states has no moral authority to wag their finger at church leaders who try to deal with issues internally. When it comes to power tripping, megalomaniac narcissists...the amount of them in authority in church's pales in comparison to the amount who are issued a gun and tasked with "keeping the peace". Interesting statement. What is your evidence for this similar widespread non reporting within secular and religious groups? You posit the reason is the lack of respect for law enforcement? Again, what studies are you referencing?
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Post by deepdeep on Jun 26, 2023 17:16:00 GMT -5
Re: point 2....The decisions to not involve law enforcement in abuse cases (child, adult, whatever) is widespread across secular and religious groups. Everybody likes to wring their hands when church leaders advise against it but the mere fact that they are "religious" tells us nothing about the proximal cause of that advice. Distrust of outside authorities stems from the experiences of people who have been mistreated by that authority. If you want to just stack abuse ... law enforcement in the United states has no moral authority to wag their finger at church leaders who try to deal with issues internally. When it comes to power tripping, megalomaniac narcissists...the amount of them in authority in church's pales in comparison to the amount who are issued a gun and tasked with "keeping the peace". Interesting statement. What is your evidence for this similar widespread non reporting within secular and religious groups? You posit the reason is the lack of respect for law enforcement? Again, what studies are you referencing? I will paraphrase some depressing statistics published by RAINN. These statistics do not differentiate between abuse within a religious system vs one that is not...They are compiled by the department of Justice and the FBI National Incident-Based Reporting System. If anything...it might over-represent highly urbanized populations but that is conjecture on my part. Of the people who experience property crime, 62% report to the police. Of the people who experience assault and battery, 63% report to the police. Of the people who experience sexual assault, 31% report to the police. Depressingly...I think the amount of these cases that ever see a courtroom is in the single digits percentage. Top reasons given for reporting: To protect the victim or household from further crimes To stop the incident or prevent recurrence or escalation to improve police surveillance or they believed they had a duty to do so Top reasons given for not reporting: Fear of retaliation Believed the police would not do anything to helpBelieved it was a personal matter These data say very little directly about why child sexual violence would go unreported but I think a part of these numbers is a distrust or fear of police specifically. A peer-reviewed study from 2021 that reviewed data from the National Crime Victimization Survey concluded that the factors that contribute to unreported crime to "... primarily consist of the victim’s perception of the crime and the justice system, as well as other factors such as reporting the crime to another authority."So what can we say about CSA in regards to the low reporting rates? Whatever the reporting rate for SA in general, I would expect CSA reporting to be lower and perhaps far lower since a child will be relying on somebody close to them to make the report if they tell anybody at all. I point this out because there is a tendency to try and "over-fit" personal experiences onto larger groups. It is a version of spotlight syndrome. In the case of 2x2 SA and CSA...that is nested within the problem of SA and CSA within similar parochial Christian faith communities.....That abuse is a part of the overall SA and CSA events within more mainstream religious groups which is included in the abysmal societal level statics that groups like RAINN compile. One might say that the reason an poor, inner city child whose abuse goes unreported is unrelated to the reason it might happen in a rural, insular, faith-based group....but the differences are superficial. Both will be largely invisible to broader society and subject to systems where-in the people they are surrounded by and reliant upon tend to mistrust legal authority figures. The data on this topic is fascinating (and troubling). One wierd nugget that comes out of the data .... If an individual is the subject of abuse by a family member, that individual is much more likely to be affiliated with fundamental protestant religion. People abused by non-relatives are much more likely to rarely or never be involved in churches or religious activities.
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Post by snow on Jun 26, 2023 17:28:51 GMT -5
Interesting statement. What is your evidence for this similar widespread non reporting within secular and religious groups? You posit the reason is the lack of respect for law enforcement? Again, what studies are you referencing? I will paraphrase some depressing statistics published by RAINN. These statistics do not differentiate between abuse within a religious system vs one that is not...They are compiled by the department of Justice and the FBI National Incident-Based Reporting System. If anything...it might over-represent highly urbanized populations but that is conjecture on my part. Of the people who experience property crime, 62% report to the police. Of the people who experience assault and battery, 63% report to the police. Of the people who experience sexual assault, 31% report to the police. Depressingly...I think the amount of these cases that ever see a courtroom is in the single digits percentage. Top reasons given for reporting: To protect the victim or household from further crimes To stop the incident or prevent recurrence or escalation to improve police surveillance or they believed they had a duty to do so Top reasons given for not reporting: Fear of retaliation Believed the police would not do anything to helpBelieved it was a personal matter These data say very little directly about why child sexual violence would go unreported but I think a part of these numbers is a distrust or fear of police specifically. A peer-reviewed study from 2021 that reviewed data from the National Crime Victimization Survey concluded that the factors that contribute to unreported crime to "... primarily consist of the victim’s perception of the crime and the justice system, as well as other factors such as reporting the crime to another authority."So what can we say about CSA in regards to the low reporting rates? Whatever the reporting rate for SA in general, I would expect CSA reporting to be lower and perhaps far lower since a child will be relying on somebody close to them to make the report if they tell anybody at all. I point this out because there is a tendency to try and "over-fit" personal experiences onto larger groups. It is a version of spotlight syndrome. In the case of 2x2 SA and CSA...that is nested within the problem of SA and CSA within similar parochial Christian faith communities.....That abuse is a part of the overall SA and CSA events within more mainstream religious groups which is included in the abysmal societal level statics that groups like RAINN compile. One might say that the reason an poor, inner city child whose abuse goes unreported is unrelated to the reason it might happen in a rural, insular, faith-based group....but the differences are superficial. Both will be largely invisible to broader society and subject to systems where-in the people they are surrounded by and reliant upon tend to mistrust legal authority figures. The data on this topic is fascinating (and troubling). One wierd nugget that comes out of the data .... If an individual is the subject of abuse by a family member, that individual is much more likely to be affiliated with fundamental protestant religion. People abused by non-relatives are much more likely to rarely or never be involved in churches or religious activities. That is interesting. I would have to say that I don't think it's so much not trusting the police in the case of sa/csa but more the court system that makes it so hard to face. I wonder if that's one reason parents don't report because they want to save their child from that process. Not a good reason, but I know for me I didn't report because I just wasn't strong enough to go through the process at 17.
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Post by getreal on Jun 26, 2023 20:18:40 GMT -5
I will paraphrase some depressing statistics published by RAINN. These statistics do not differentiate between abuse within a religious system vs one that is not...They are compiled by the department of Justice and the FBI National Incident-Based Reporting System. If anything...it might over-represent highly urbanized populations but that is conjecture on my part. Of the people who experience property crime, 62% report to the police. Of the people who experience assault and battery, 63% report to the police. Of the people who experience sexual assault, 31% report to the police. Depressingly...I think the amount of these cases that ever see a courtroom is in the single digits percentage. Top reasons given for reporting: To protect the victim or household from further crimes To stop the incident or prevent recurrence or escalation to improve police surveillance or they believed they had a duty to do so Top reasons given for not reporting: Fear of retaliation Believed the police would not do anything to helpBelieved it was a personal matter These data say very little directly about why child sexual violence would go unreported but I think a part of these numbers is a distrust or fear of police specifically. A peer-reviewed study from 2021 that reviewed data from the National Crime Victimization Survey concluded that the factors that contribute to unreported crime to "... primarily consist of the victim’s perception of the crime and the justice system, as well as other factors such as reporting the crime to another authority."So what can we say about CSA in regards to the low reporting rates? Whatever the reporting rate for SA in general, I would expect CSA reporting to be lower and perhaps far lower since a child will be relying on somebody close to them to make the report if they tell anybody at all. I point this out because there is a tendency to try and "over-fit" personal experiences onto larger groups. It is a version of spotlight syndrome. In the case of 2x2 SA and CSA...that is nested within the problem of SA and CSA within similar parochial Christian faith communities.....That abuse is a part of the overall SA and CSA events within more mainstream religious groups which is included in the abysmal societal level statics that groups like RAINN compile. One might say that the reason an poor, inner city child whose abuse goes unreported is unrelated to the reason it might happen in a rural, insular, faith-based group....but the differences are superficial. Both will be largely invisible to broader society and subject to systems where-in the people they are surrounded by and reliant upon tend to mistrust legal authority figures. The data on this topic is fascinating (and troubling). One wierd nugget that comes out of the data .... If an individual is the subject of abuse by a family member, that individual is much more likely to be affiliated with fundamental protestant religion. People abused by non-relatives are much more likely to rarely or never be involved in churches or religious activities. That is interesting. I would have to say that I don't think it's so much not trusting the police in the case of sa/csa but more the court system that makes it so hard to face. I wonder if that's one reason parents don't report because they want to save their child from that process. Not a good reason, but I know for me I didn't report because I just wasn't strong enough to go through the process at 17. Thanks for the quick response on the data. It is interesting and I have to agree with snow that it is hard to pinpoint the police, or to single them out as the cause of not reporting when the justice system is also implicated, and both in unknowable amounts as they are paired. However, it seems reasonable from what victims say that the thought of going through the process of repeating your story over and over and then having to face a cross examination that can be brutal is the mountain in front of people that seems to high to climb. The he said, she said. The difficulty of proving a case as you point out. The higher likelihood of an abuse within families belonging to a what did you say, fundamentalist Protestant religion says something!
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Post by deepdeep on Jun 26, 2023 21:48:42 GMT -5
That is interesting. I would have to say that I don't think it's so much not trusting the police in the case of sa/csa but more the court system that makes it so hard to face. I wonder if that's one reason parents don't report because they want to save their child from that process. Not a good reason, but I know for me I didn't report because I just wasn't strong enough to go through the process at 17. Thanks for the quick response on the data. It is interesting and I have to agree with snow that it is hard to pinpoint the police, or to single them out as the cause of not reporting when the justice system is also implicated, and both in unknowable amounts as they are paired. However, it seems reasonable from what victims say that the thought of going through the process of repeating your story over and over and then having to face a cross examination that can be brutal is the mountain in front of people that seems to high to climb. The he said, she said. The difficulty of proving a case as you point out. The higher likelihood of an abuse within families belonging to a what did you say, fundamentalist Protestant religion says something! Absolutely...the reason why this goes under-reported is very much over-determined...take away any two causes and the third cause still makes it happen. One thing to correct....And I had to read it a couple of times before I understood the distinction...What emerges from the collected data on victims is that if an individuals abuser was a family member...it is highly likely that the victim was a member of a "fundamentalist protestant group". If the victim was abused by a non-family member, it is highly likely that they are not involved with a religious group at all. That particular data set made no claim over what group (secular or religious) were more likely to be abused. That is a much tougher question to answer and depending on how you parse the data and define your groups...it can go either way. Some of the more recent study's were done in Europe in state run day cares vs church run day cares and don't really yield anything dramatic on that front.
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Post by getreal on Jun 26, 2023 22:45:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the quick response on the data. It is interesting and I have to agree with snow that it is hard to pinpoint the police, or to single them out as the cause of not reporting when the justice system is also implicated, and both in unknowable amounts as they are paired. However, it seems reasonable from what victims say that the thought of going through the process of repeating your story over and over and then having to face a cross examination that can be brutal is the mountain in front of people that seems to high to climb. The he said, she said. The difficulty of proving a case as you point out. The higher likelihood of an abuse within families belonging to a what did you say, fundamentalist Protestant religion says something! Absolutely...the reason why this goes under-reported is very much over-determined...take away any two causes and the third cause still makes it happen. One thing to correct....And I had to read it a couple of times before I understood the distinction...What emerges from the collected data on victims is that if an individuals abuser was a family member...it is highly likely that the victim was a member of a "fundamentalist protestant group". If the victim was abused by a non-family member, it is highly likely that they are not involved with a religious group at all. That particular data set made no claim over what group (secular or religious) were more likely to be abused. That is a much tougher question to answer and depending on how you parse the data and define your groups...it can go either way. Some of the more recent study's were done in Europe in state run day cares vs church run day cares and don't really yield anything dramatic on that front.
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Post by getreal on Jun 26, 2023 22:54:55 GMT -5
Absolutely...the reason why this goes under-reported is very much over-determined...take away any two causes and the third cause still makes it happen. One thing to correct....And I had to read it a couple of times before I understood the distinction...What emerges from the collected data on victims is that if an individuals abuser was a family member...it is highly likely that the victim was a member of a "fundamentalist protestant group". If the victim was abused by a non-family member, it is highly likely that they are not involved with a religious group at all. That particular data set made no claim over what group (secular or religious) were more likely to be abused. That is a much tougher question to answer and depending on how you parse the data and define your groups...it can go either way. Some of the more recent study's were done in Europe in state run day cares vs church run day cares and don't really yield anything dramatic on that front. Europe is not a hot bed of North American style fundamentalist religion. I think the most interesting aspect is why abuse of family members occurs more often in fundamentalist Christian groups vs say main stream religions. Why are people drawn to groups claiming to be ‘the truth.’ The allure of being better than for people of low self esteem? It appeals to ego’s. I know. You don’t. All this is narcissistic and unhealthy. Add a lot of unhealthy self denial. Its a Petri dish for growth of the wrong kind in my opinion.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 26, 2023 23:10:21 GMT -5
Europe is not a hot bed of North American style fundamentalist religion. I think the most interesting aspect is why abuse of family members occurs more often in fundamentalist Christian groups vs say main stream religions. Why are people drawn to groups claiming to be ‘the truth.’ The allure of being better than for people of low self esteem? It appeals to ego’s. I know. You don’t. All this is narcissistic and unhealthy. Add a lot of unhealthy self denial. Its a Petri dish for growth of the wrong kind in my opinion. It's peachtree dish according to MGT.
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Post by deepdeep on Jun 27, 2023 9:02:24 GMT -5
Europe is not a hot bed of North American style fundamentalist religion. I think the most interesting aspect is why abuse of family members occurs more often in fundamentalist Christian groups vs say main stream religions. Why are people drawn to groups claiming to be ‘the truth.’ The allure of being better than for people of low self esteem? It appeals to ego’s. I know. You don’t. All this is narcissistic and unhealthy. Add a lot of unhealthy self denial. Its a Petri dish for growth of the wrong kind in my opinion. Yep...it's very hard to design a narrowly focused study to answer very specific questions. As for why the data shows what it shows...that is always going to be susceptible to interpretation and the study authors are generally very allergic to making those types of claims...that is for the media and politicians .
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 29, 2023 1:00:47 GMT -5
Re: point 2....The decisions to not involve law enforcement in abuse cases (child, adult, whatever) is widespread across secular and religious groups. Everybody likes to wring their hands when church leaders advise against it but the mere fact that they are "religious" tells us nothing about the proximal cause of that advice. Distrust of outside authorities stems from the experiences of people who have been mistreated by that authority. If you want to just stack abuse ... law enforcement in the United states has no moral authority to wag their finger at church leaders who try to deal with issues internally. When it comes to power tripping, megalomaniac narcissists...the amount of them in authority in church's pales in comparison to the amount who are issued a gun and tasked with "keeping the peace". Interesting statement. What is your evidence for this similar widespread non reporting within secular and religious groups? You posit the reason is the lack of respect for law enforcement? Again, what studies are you referencing? It's easy to know where there is widespread non-reporting among the 2x2's. It's been preached for at least a century that one does NOT report one's brother to the law. I wrote an article about the improper application of that principle to CSA, etc. ... And later heard a worker deliver the explanation virtually word for word as I wrote about it. I can just imagine the widespread horror among the F&W 2 decades ago if so many of the workers, etc., were being reported to the law. The fact that so many people find it disconcerting now just shows it's a jolt to their faith. My premise: if you don't report to the law, you have no protection of the law. The law is made for the protection of the people
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Post by ForeverFree on Jun 29, 2023 18:42:10 GMT -5
Interesting statement. What is your evidence for this similar widespread non reporting within secular and religious groups? You posit the reason is the lack of respect for law enforcement? Again, what studies are you referencing? It's easy to know where there is widespread non-reporting among the 2x2's. It's been preached for at least a century that one does NOT report one's brother to the law. I wrote an article about the improper application of that principle to CSA, etc. ... And later heard a worker deliver the explanation virtually word for word as I wrote about it. I can just imagine the widespread horror among the F&W 2 decades ago if so many of the workers, etc., were being reported to the law. The fact that so many people find it disconcerting now just shows it's a jolt to their faith. My premise: if you don't report to the law, you have no protection of the law. The law is made for the protection of the people one does NOT report one's brother to the law. This is very true. Friends and workers are not to report friends and workers to the law. I know of a professing family who went into business with another professing family (they were actually related). The one scammed the other out of thousands of dollars through a rotten business deal. The overseer and his protégé who later became (and still is) overseer, strongly encouraged the scammed family to not seek legal counsel or pursue any type of legal action. It was suggested to let it be. The scammer continued to attend meetings and have Bible studies in their home, host worker visits and all the other privileges of being a proper saint in the church. The protégé treated them as if no wrong had happened.
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