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Post by margaret on Jun 30, 2023 14:52:26 GMT -5
Your advice is without weight. They sure haven’t helped you.
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Post by getreal on Jun 30, 2023 15:26:50 GMT -5
Being lead by the Spirit doesn't feed the bulldog. Jesus oversaw his disciples, the apostles then became Overseers of the church. Faith is necessary, the conviction of the Holy Spirit is also a necessity, but things don't magically come together without some degree of coordination and oversight. The disciples prepared the Passover meal (Luke22:8), The disciples bought meat (John 4:8), they fed 5000 people (Matthew 14:19), Judas was in charge of the money bag (John 12:6). All of these things were arranged. Jesus is not here to do that now, he relies on men & women of faith for that, and when their decisions & actions are adhered to and done in his name, his work is realized, no matter the church.
Who decides when a church needs a new roof, who mops the floors & mows the lawn, who cooks the stew at convention, who speaks & when? All these things don't fall together by accident, someone has got to bring it all together. That's all I'm saying.
These things are brought together by people in their different roles, not one person. The New Testament church had apostles, elders, deacons, pastors and teachers. The apostles did not perform all these roles. The apostles were like evangelists going out into the world preaching the gospel. There were times when they returned to a location for a period of time only to go out on a journey again. They were not overseers. The body working together in unity. Not little God's or popes like overseers / head workers power structure. This debate re overseers or no overseers is odd to me. Its not a binary choice. The overseer system as is is clearly not healthy, but it’s not like a religion can exist without some organizing structure as someone above points out. The issue is should there be one man at the top with all power. Clearly no. It just seems like this church stumbled in its evolution from a movement of primarily evangelism and new converts to a settled church with mainly pastoral duties and much, much less evangelism. But yes, for god’s sake let go of this now poisoned term ‘overseer.’ Can this church make that leap in evolution now is the question.
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Post by getreal on Jun 30, 2023 17:24:19 GMT -5
Or more simply put the choice isn’t between an overseer structure vs no organizational structure at all which leaves lots of choices? What do you choose?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 2, 2023 19:31:46 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that? Tough being an Overseer, damned if you do and damned if you don't. False allegations are abuse. That's why you need professional investigators. Investigation of serious accusations by non professionals is abuse.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 2, 2023 19:35:45 GMT -5
if it’s tough being an overseer, it’s because there’s not supposed to be overseers. The excuse that they’re needed to make plans etc is complete nonsense. Jesus said will there be faith on earth when he returns and it seems like faith is the most lacking amongst overseers. Someone has got to be in charge, otherwise your left with a disorganized mess and no accountability. Paul intervened with the church in Corinth & Thessalonica to straighten-out and correct problems. That was necessary oversight.
I agree that a bad Overseer can be worse than not having one at all. I personally believe that most Workers have faith, but self-discipline and the decision making process has obviously been lacking in some of them.
Imagine your overseeing a group of ministers and a member of the congregation alleges that they were sexually assaulted or abused by one of the preachers that you oversaw. Then you question the accused preacher who adamantly denies that anything happened and he has never been accused of abusing anyone else. So now your faced with a she said he said situation with no other evidence or witnesses to prove who's telling the truth. What do you do?
The overseers are not police officers, and investigating crimes isn't in their job description. They should make their plans and report crimes like law abiding people.
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Post by jonathan on Jul 3, 2023 0:10:16 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that? With this kind of situation in mind, I have already decided in the event I am accused of as anything and the decision of guilt or innocence hinges on "she says, he says,she says, he says" I will demand a properly and thoroughly designed lie detector test for both myself and the accuser.
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Post by mrdobalina on Jul 3, 2023 2:12:37 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that? With this kind of situation in mind, I have already decided in the event I am accused of as anything and the decision of guilt or innocence hinges on "she says, he says,she says, he says" I will demand a properly and thoroughly designed lie detector test for both myself and the accuser. I'd get out now with your reputation intact if I were you. There are systems in place to help leaving workers that have no other support that I can hook you up with.
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janj
Senior Member
Posts: 470
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Post by janj on Jul 12, 2023 16:27:11 GMT -5
Someone has got to be in charge, otherwise your left with a disorganized mess and no accountability. Paul intervened with the church in Corinth & Thessalonica to straighten-out and correct problems. That was necessary oversight.
I agree that a bad Overseer can be worse than not having one at all. I personally believe that most Workers have faith, but self-discipline and the decision making process has obviously been lacking in some of them.
Imagine your overseeing a group of ministers and a member of the congregation alleges that they were sexually assaulted or abused by one of the preachers that you oversaw. Then you question the accused preacher who adamantly denies that anything happened and he has never been accused of abusing anyone else. So now your faced with a she said he said situation with no other evidence or witnesses to prove who's telling the truth. What do you do?
The overseers are not police officers, and investigating crimes isn't in their job description. They should make their plans and report crimes like law abiding people. I agree Bob, but I think the problem comes when a person is accused but the victim won't go to the police because they are too traumatised (or in case of a false accusation say they are). What does the church do then? If they are innocent, he said abuser is already guilty in the eyes of the community and are in fact never able to clear their name. Someone on a site quoted 4 % of cases are false accusations. This is 4% of cases that proceed as far as official investigation. There are many more where the 'abuser' is just named and shamed to the community, but is not guilty. It is a very real thing and makes a whole new lot of victims. I am not saying we shouldn't believe people's stories, but sadly not everyone is truthful. It is a terrible situation and I have seen first hand the devastation it causes. It also results in traumatized family and suicides.
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Post by snow on Jul 12, 2023 16:43:18 GMT -5
The overseers are not police officers, and investigating crimes isn't in their job description. They should make their plans and report crimes like law abiding people. I agree Bob, but I think the problem comes when a person is accused but the victim won't go to the police because they are too traumatised (or in case of a false accusation say they are). What does the church do then? If they are innocent, he said abuser is already guilty in the eyes of the community and are in fact never able to clear their name. Someone on a site quoted 4 % of cases are false accusations. This is 4% of cases that proceed as far as official investigation. There are many more where the 'abuser' is just named and shamed to the community, but is not guilty. It is a very real thing and makes a whole new lot of victims. I am not saying we shouldn't believe people's stories, but sadly not everyone is truthful. It is a terrible situation and I have seen first hand the devastation it causes. It also results in traumatized family and suicides. Even more reason why it should all go to the authorities. That way if the person is innocent it can be proved in a legal setting. I totally agree that it's a difficult situation when the person is an adult and doesn't want to report it. Ties the hands of the workers. But if the child is still a minor they have to report it. I have often wondered why someone accused that knows they are innocent doesn't go to court to try and clear their name. I know it's hard to do, but not impossible, because it's really hard for a survivor to go to court and prove they were abused too. But I think it would go a long way in the eyes of the friends if the accused did go to those lengths to clear their name. If they are not innocent usually they avoid the legal system.
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janj
Senior Member
Posts: 470
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Post by janj on Jul 12, 2023 18:02:53 GMT -5
I agree Bob, but I think the problem comes when a person is accused but the victim won't go to the police because they are too traumatised (or in case of a false accusation say they are). What does the church do then? If they are innocent, he said abuser is already guilty in the eyes of the community and are in fact never able to clear their name. Someone on a site quoted 4 % of cases are false accusations. This is 4% of cases that proceed as far as official investigation. There are many more where the 'abuser' is just named and shamed to the community, but is not guilty. It is a very real thing and makes a whole new lot of victims. I am not saying we shouldn't believe people's stories, but sadly not everyone is truthful. It is a terrible situation and I have seen first hand the devastation it causes. It also results in traumatized family and suicides. Even more reason why it should all go to the authorities. That way if the person is innocent it can be proved in a legal setting. I totally agree that it's a difficult situation when the person is an adult and doesn't want to report it. Ties the hands of the workers. But if the child is still a minor they have to report it. I have often wondered why someone accused that knows they are innocent doesn't go to court to try and clear their name. I know it's hard to do, but not impossible, because it's really hard for a survivor to go to court and prove they were abused too. But I think it would go a long way in the eyes of the friends if the accused did go to those lengths to clear their name. If they are not innocent usually they avoid the legal system. Don't think that option is available in Aust & NZ. Also costs many $ and what are you fighting- gossip. Yes I totally agree, victims must be encouraged to go to authorities, that is vital for all concerned.
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Post by fixit on Jul 12, 2023 18:47:35 GMT -5
I agree Bob, but I think the problem comes when a person is accused but the victim won't go to the police because they are too traumatised (or in case of a false accusation say they are). What does the church do then? If they are innocent, he said abuser is already guilty in the eyes of the community and are in fact never able to clear their name. Someone on a site quoted 4 % of cases are false accusations. This is 4% of cases that proceed as far as official investigation. There are many more where the 'abuser' is just named and shamed to the community, but is not guilty. It is a very real thing and makes a whole new lot of victims. I am not saying we shouldn't believe people's stories, but sadly not everyone is truthful. It is a terrible situation and I have seen first hand the devastation it causes. It also results in traumatized family and suicides. Even more reason why it should all go to the authorities. That way if the person is innocent it can be proved in a legal setting. I totally agree that it's a difficult situation when the person is an adult and doesn't want to report it. Ties the hands of the workers. But if the child is still a minor they have to report it. I have often wondered why someone accused that knows they are innocent doesn't go to court to try and clear their name. I know it's hard to do, but not impossible, because it's really hard for a survivor to go to court and prove they were abused too. But I think it would go a long way in the eyes of the friends if the accused did go to those lengths to clear their name. If they are not innocent usually they avoid the legal system. In my experience the police only take a case to court if they think they can win it. It's a good idea to take it to the police because they will work hard to establish the facts. There are professionals who are very good at weeding out false accusations.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 13, 2023 0:43:03 GMT -5
The overseers are not police officers, and investigating crimes isn't in their job description. They should make their plans and report crimes like law abiding people. I agree Bob, but I think the problem comes when a person is accused but the victim won't go to the police because they are too traumatised (or in case of a false accusation say they are). What does the church do then? If they are innocent, he said abuser is already guilty in the eyes of the community and are in fact never able to clear their name. Someone on a site quoted 4 % of cases are false accusations. This is 4% of cases that proceed as far as official investigation. There are many more where the 'abuser' is just named and shamed to the community, but is not guilty. It is a very real thing and makes a whole new lot of victims. I am not saying we shouldn't believe people's stories, but sadly not everyone is truthful. It is a terrible situation and I have seen first hand the devastation it causes. It also results in traumatized family and suicides. This is quite true. And I believe that it's because we've not generally been educated to subject all these accusations to the "truth test" -- that being the professional court systems. Combined with the lack of depending on the courts, people tend also to blame courts for not securing proper verdicts. Furthermore, even if people do go to the law, they have to remember that the law cannot rightly find the truth if the evidence presented cannot prove the case. Basic lack of education. When a case has been thrown out, it is always because (1) legal evidence has not been sufficient, or (2) the accused has successfully shown his innocence. And there's the 3rd possibility -- it can happen that the action that prompted the mistake turns out not to be forbidden in law. I was a teacher for 40 years, and I made certain that every time a female student made any suggestive move or remark to me that I made sure my supervisor was aware of it at the time. What happens in a lot of the 4% cases is that the adult has not informed the child and his/her parent that he was uncomfortable with what the child did in the beginning. So what if people thought I was overreacting -- it teaches boundaries.
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Post by snow on Jul 13, 2023 13:16:35 GMT -5
Even more reason why it should all go to the authorities. That way if the person is innocent it can be proved in a legal setting. I totally agree that it's a difficult situation when the person is an adult and doesn't want to report it. Ties the hands of the workers. But if the child is still a minor they have to report it. I have often wondered why someone accused that knows they are innocent doesn't go to court to try and clear their name. I know it's hard to do, but not impossible, because it's really hard for a survivor to go to court and prove they were abused too. But I think it would go a long way in the eyes of the friends if the accused did go to those lengths to clear their name. If they are not innocent usually they avoid the legal system. Don't think that option is available in Aust & NZ. Also costs many $ and what are you fighting- gossip. Yes I totally agree, victims must be encouraged to go to authorities, that is vital for all concerned. Yes it's not cheap that's for sure. I hate it when someone gives a false testimony about something so horrendous because it just makes it harder for the 96% that are not lying. There needs to be significant consequences for false accusations.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jul 13, 2023 17:42:07 GMT -5
Undergoing a polygraph is not easy . However I requested it be done . It was done & my mom was videoing by our law enforcement before she passed . I hope my accusers have to sit for one . I know one that will fold immediately . Anyhow enough for today . Kinda …………. All the last couple of weeks the discussion’s were on body cam footage , passed off to detectives ! I have no motive to lie I want a motive to live peacefully 🙃
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 15, 2023 23:52:43 GMT -5
Don't think that option is available in Aust & NZ. Also costs many $ and what are you fighting- gossip. Yes I totally agree, victims must be encouraged to go to authorities, that is vital for all concerned. Yes it's not cheap that's for sure. I hate it when someone gives a false testimony about something so horrendous because it just makes it harder for the 96% that are not lying. There needs to be significant consequences for false accusations. There are severe penalties for lying to police interrogators, and in court. Frequently inconsequential lies are not prosecuted because they're so numerous, but don't dare to lie during a police/FBI investigation, or in court. You can do some serious time, depending on the severity of the crime being examined. Actually, a skilled interrogator can easily discover if a person is lying, and the person a lot of the time not even know he's done it. It can be devastating to the person who has a very well though out alibi ... when the examiner throws in an already proven fact that the person hadn't allowed for in his own accounting. It's the saving grace for a defendant who is not guilty as charged. And FWIW -- no matter who the worker is, he/she's NOT trained at that.
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