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Post by Admin on Jun 24, 2023 20:29:31 GMT -5
A letter by alleged victims of a certain senior worker has been posted on the closed board, for obvious reasons.
The allegations are all unproven (i.e. have not been through court processes). Understandably, considering the backgrounds to the alleged abuses and the impact on the alleged victim/survivors of going through such adversarial court proceedings. Therein lies a significant aspect of the current shocking situation within the F&W church in North America (far, far from any resolution).
Victims of Worker X speak out X, This letter is for you, from all of us known and unknown who you have abused through your terrible misuse of assumed power. Please know that we in this letter are only a small representation of the lives you have personally damaged. You have molested us, raped us, had inappropriate sexual conversations with us, touched us inappropriately, hugged and kissed us forcibly, against our will, asked us inappropriate questions, you have demeaned, threatened, groomed us, made us trust you, coerced and forced us to be a part of things we didn't ask for and that we didn't want to be a part of in any way, shape or form. You have robbed us of much, taken our power and silenced our voices but we are here to say no more, enough! No longer do we fear you, no longer will we be silent, lest we also would be amongst those who have in their silence and inaction enable you to continue to abuse and ruin the lives of precious souls. We are taking back our power. Now it is our turn to do the asking.
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Post by Admin on Jun 24, 2023 23:33:13 GMT -5
I've unlocked this thread, but please keep names and even initials of alleged perpetrators of CSA and SA from off this main (open) board of TMB. Thanks, admin
We feel, having read the latest letter from the multitude of alleged victims, that this whole affair has gone on for way too long. How many new victims have there been since news of some of these perpetrators broke (including on TMB) as far back as 2010?
IT IS TIME FOR THE FRIENDS IN NORTH AMERICA (US and Canada) TO RISE UP AND SAY TO THOSE IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY, STOP!
Tomorrow is Sunday. Just remember the pleas of those who contributed their brokenness and feelings of shame in that letter. Time to start the campaign by the Friends for putting a complete stop to CSA, SA and immoral and illegal schemes within the fellowship, NOW!
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2023 0:01:30 GMT -5
Jun 17 People have noted that most of the abuse disclosures this year have been about North American overseers, workers and friends, but they have mentioned their hope that the growing transparency and engagement will spread to other continents. It is well-known that abuse is a global problem and no area is immune. Unfortunately, this slow growth in transparency only occurred because brave people provided details of their abuse (sometimes anonymously, and sometimes with their names). This has given strength to others to also disclose their abuse, and to open the secrecy that was previously imposed on victims. It has also been recognised that the secrecy of past cases allowed some perpetrators to continue their abuse, perhaps in a new area of unsuspecting people when they were silently shifted to a new field. That secrecy may have been common in general society many years ago, but is no longer acceptable. Victims, perhaps from many years ago, are still living with the trauma. Their healing requires open acknowledgement of all historic cases so they can see that their hurt is recognised. In some cases, they can realise that they were not the only victim of their perpetrator. WINGS has received reports of abuse in Europe, Latin America, Asia, Australasia and Africa.
Now is the time for those areas to provide reports that can be published by WINGSUp until Dean Bruer, the standard operating practice of Overseers and Workers has been to only deal with CSA perpetrators if allegations were proven by a court conviction. It is now slowly being acknowledged by Workers (at least in North America) that this past practice has been skewed way too heavily in favoring perpetrators. The result of this flawed approach has been many more victims of CSA, victims who could have been protected if allegations had been taken seriously and protective actions taken by the church leaders. The principles of justice (innocent until proven guilty) can still be upheld, while treating allegations seriously to the extent that prevents further victims in the future. It is not clear in those other countries whether these lessons have yet been learned, and appropriate changes made to how allegations are dealt with. As in North America, the responsibility for dealing appropriately with alleged perpetrators will lie with the Friends as well as their Workers. The priority from now, worldwide, must not be minimizing reputational damage to the church, or protecting reputations of those in charge, but plainly and simply preventing any more victims of CSA and SA within the church. Which means taking allegations seriously!
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Post by passingby on Jun 25, 2023 19:21:57 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2023 19:37:31 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that? Yes, that does happen and why I was 99% against anything said from a he/she said...I've re-evlauated that and now will hear what someone (both sides) have to say and if there is evidence before saying anything. I'm still slightly skeptic but not as I was.
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Post by Dan on Jun 25, 2023 23:40:39 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that?
Tough being an Overseer, damned if you do and damned if you don't. False allegations are abuse.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 26, 2023 0:17:19 GMT -5
A false accusation is also a terrible thing, and the book needs to be thrown at someone who makes a false accusation. I have seen two people have their lives ruined by scheming conniving little tarts, once for money, and they other for revenge because of exam results.
If the young worker is innocent, he should sue to clear his name.
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Post by margaret on Jun 26, 2023 0:29:29 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that?
Tough being an Overseer, damned if you do and damned if you don't. False allegations are abuse.
if it’s tough being an overseer, it’s because there’s not supposed to be overseers. The excuse that they’re needed to make plans etc is complete nonsense. Jesus said will there be faith on earth when he returns and it seems like faith is the most lacking amongst overseers.
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Post by Dan on Jun 26, 2023 1:02:16 GMT -5
Tough being an Overseer, damned if you do and damned if you don't. False allegations are abuse.
if it’s tough being an overseer, it’s because there’s not supposed to be overseers. The excuse that they’re needed to make plans etc is complete nonsense. Jesus said will there be faith on earth when he returns and it seems like faith is the most lacking amongst overseers.
Someone has got to be in charge, otherwise your left with a disorganized mess and no accountability. Paul intervened with the church in Corinth & Thessalonica to straighten-out and correct problems. That was necessary oversight.
I agree that a bad Overseer can be worse than not having one at all. I personally believe that most Workers have faith, but self-discipline and the decision making process has obviously been lacking in some of them.
Imagine your overseeing a group of ministers and a member of the congregation alleges that they were sexually assaulted or abused by one of the preachers that you oversaw. Then you question the accused preacher who adamantly denies that anything happened and he has never been accused of abusing anyone else. So now your faced with a she said he said situation with no other evidence or witnesses to prove who's telling the truth. What do you do?
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Post by mountain on Jun 26, 2023 11:17:52 GMT -5
if it’s tough being an overseer, it’s because there’s not supposed to be overseers. The excuse that they’re needed to make plans etc is complete nonsense. Jesus said will there be faith on earth when he returns and it seems like faith is the most lacking amongst overseers. Someone has got to be in charge, otherwise your left with a disorganized mess and no accountability. Paul intervened with the church in Corinth & Thessalonica to straighten-out and correct problems. That was necessary oversight.
I agree that a bad Overseer can be worse than not having one at all. I personally believe that most Workers have faith, but self-discipline and the decision making process has obviously been lacking in some of them.
Imagine your overseeing a group of ministers and a member of the congregation alleges that they were sexually assaulted or abused by one of the preachers that you oversaw. Then you question the accused preacher who adamantly denies that anything happened and he has never been accused of abusing anyone else. So now your faced with a she said he said situation with no other evidence or witnesses to prove who's telling the truth. What do you do?
Sexual assault is a crime. Who do you contact? It ain't the accused worker. If its a crime report it to those who are paid to carry out proper investigations, that is if it is serious enough and the victim wishes this course of action. With CSA, go straight to the authorities. Most employments/businesses and I suspect some churches as well, have human resources departments who have the duty of listening to he said - she said abuse situations. If its not a crime someone has to look at the matter in an unbiased way and form an opinion on which further action is based.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 26, 2023 15:50:58 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that? Yes, that does happen and why I was 99% against anything said from a he/she said...I've re-evlauated that and now will hear what someone (both sides) have to say and if there is evidence before saying anything. I'm still slightly skeptic but not as I was. STOP FALSE ACCUSATIONS!! That is a 2 way comment ! No victim wants to reveal what was done to them . When women , men and children are in court we face exactly what you are seeing here from Dan and passingby . The hot 🥵 line is taking calls from men as well . This is exactly why people don’t report . 2 out of 5 women report , and 1 out of 5 men report because of their fear , which we are again seeing here . As families cut a loved out because they have finally been able to speak . Suicide absolutely becomes a option , because of the treatment they receive from a$$ wipes . Losing your entire family because you spoke is NOT RIGHT ! Their mental health is damaged already . Many are not doing well and your comments are out of line . UNTIL YOU WALK IN OUR SHOES ! Never did my parents abandon me from their lives They witnessed my destruction and just prayed more . Many occasions my parents would visit me after a suicide attempt to ensure I received the help I needed . . DAF sweet thing !
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 26, 2023 16:00:11 GMT -5
For those of you who have professing family members who are struggling with why you (or we) may stand up for victims of CSA, you could point them to Revelations 1-3. Each church had a candle and an angel to represent them. The words spoken to John as a personal message to each church were directly from Jesus, who died on the cross for us all. He did not present some wishy washy 'forgive everyone' message to John for the people, but was very, very clear about things that must be dealt with or they, the people, would have no hope. I won't reference any particular verses, because reading the three chapters gives a very clear overview of the messages, and Jesus' message to each of us personally right now would be from within those messages. This is from Jesus, AFTER dying on the cross for our sins. He isn't saying just to forgive everyone and let them continue on a destructive path, because He died for them. I can guarantee that Jesus looking down on CSA being committed within the fellowship on little children, destroying lives, destroying faith, breaking the spirits of the innocent little children, He would be very grieved. Especially when these despicable crimes are committed by those who are representing God in the congregation. And I can guarantee that He would also be grieved with the cover-ups and deceit that is happening. I, for one, want to make sure I hate what He hates and love what He loves.
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Post by 4sagacity on Jun 26, 2023 17:07:26 GMT -5
For those of you who have professing family members who are struggling with why you (or we) may stand up for victims of CSA, you could point them to Revelations 1-3. Each church had a candle and an angel to represent them. The words spoken to John as a personal message to each church were directly from Jesus, who died on the cross for us all. He did not present some wishy washy 'forgive everyone' message to John for the people, but was very, very clear about things that must be dealt with or they, the people, would have no hope. I won't reference any particular verses, because reading the three chapters gives a very clear overview of the messages, and Jesus' message to each of us personally right now would be from within those messages. This is from Jesus, AFTER dying on the cross for our sins. He isn't saying just to forgive everyone and let them continue on a destructive path, because He died for them. I can guarantee that Jesus looking down on CSA being committed within the fellowship on little children, destroying lives, destroying faith, breaking the spirits of the innocent little children, He would be very grieved. Especially when these despicable crimes are committed by those who are representing God in the congregation. And I can guarantee that He would also be grieved with the cover-ups and deceit that is happening. I, for one, want to make sure I hate what He hates and love what He loves. "Hate what He hates and love what He loves." That exact same thought has been repeating in my mind over and over as I sort through all this in my own mind and heart. God is a God of righteousness and, above all, He loves righteousness. What is righteousness...morally right; free from guilt or sin. All this immorality, both that which has come to light and that which is still hidden, is hated by God. I stand with God.
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Post by snow on Jun 26, 2023 17:09:18 GMT -5
Victims speak out.... I wonder how many victims of false suspicions - and accusations - there are? Does anyone care? I get the impression reading here that the answer is not much really, except brief lip service. I'll speak out for one. We had a good worker in our area, one who's fate haunts me to this day. He was one of those people who just as a person we'd call "good people". Genuine, vulnerable, humble but sure of God at least for himself, doing his best in something he'd "offered for" in the best of that kind of spirit, motive and intentions. Unfortunately he stayed several times in the home of a couple going through a divorce. She had been one of those people who joined the 2x2's because it was God's Only Way, not because God was speaking to her personally. When the "revelations" came around to our area, she was shook hard and bad. The divorce was in part because he, the husband, wasn't going to quit the friends, and she was going to have absolutely nothing more to do with any of them (those deceivers). Maybe she was hyper vigilant, or angry with suspicions of everything, but the upshot was she accused the worker of inappropriateness with her 17 yr old daughter. She made her case strongly, directly, and no two ways about it with the head worker of our area. The accused being a young worker little more than a couple of years in the work, to be on the safe side was dismissed and sent home. He was heart broke, helpless, destroyed in what he'd committed to as his life's work. She, was satisfied. I spoke to the daughter about a year later when we happened to run across each other at a local carnival, so I asked her, - was so and so ever inappropriate with you? She looked at me like - huh? and answered "No" in that way of what do you mean, by that? Yes it happens. And it's horrific when it does. But when survivors come forward with their stories, I believe them because I know just how hard it is to tell anyone about what happened to you. I don't think there is one survivor out there that doesn't feel guilt and shame for something that really was never their fault, but it's instinctual. Especially in the 2x2 group where we grew up hearing that we must not dress immodestly because we don't want to tempt the brother workers. We hear that from a very young age and we believed it. So when a child is abused like that what do you think their first thoughts are? What did I do to have this happen to me. You then go to therapy and you're told that rape is never your fault, and that then wars with your early learning. When you finally heal enough to accept that it's true, and you then come forward with your story, and you're not believed, and you're told that you are to blame, it all comes back again. Do you think that any survivor doesn't know what to expect and they still have the courage to tell their story? The people that do what she did are nasty and they make it harder for those who have been authentically abused to be believed. They need to have consequences every bit as much as someone that commits abuse. When they admit to lying or someone else that they said was abused confirms that they were not abused, then there should be consequences.
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Post by snow on Jun 26, 2023 17:17:17 GMT -5
Yes, that does happen and why I was 99% against anything said from a he/she said...I've re-evlauated that and now will hear what someone (both sides) have to say and if there is evidence before saying anything. I'm still slightly skeptic but not as I was. STOP FALSE ACCUSATIONS!! That is a 2 way comment ! No victim wants to reveal what was done to them . When women , men and children are in court we face exactly what you are seeing here from Dan and passingby . The hot 🥵 line is taking calls from men as well . This is exactly why people don’t report . 2 out of 5 women report , and 1 out of 5 men report because of their fear , which we are again seeing here . As families cut a loved out because they have finally been able to speak . Suicide absolutely becomes a option , because of the treatment they receive from a$$ wipes . Losing your entire family because you spoke is NOT RIGHT ! Their mental health is damaged already . Many are not doing well and your comments are out of line . UNTIL YOU WALK IN OUR SHOES ! Never did my parents abandon me from their lives They witnessed my destruction and just prayed more . Many occasions my parents would visit me after a suicide attempt to ensure I received the help I needed . . DAF sweet thing ! We are seeing that right now with one survivor that's come out and is now being shunned. Ended up in urgent care and doesn't want to live. Family shunned them. False accusations are horrific because it makes those who are telling the truth have to face skepticism far more often. The workers calling an individual a 'troublemaker' and encouraging the family to shun them is happening right now.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 26, 2023 18:42:31 GMT -5
You are revictimizing. Which means …….. to victimize (someone) again ! WTH is wrong with you ? Are you not reading and seeing victims are going to urgent care One was suicidal and is in care . You just don’t get it or care ! Hey head up to Canada 🇨🇦 and you can attend my session at CCASA (Calgary Communities Against Sexual Abuse) tomorrow for hopefully last time Because when I am done the trauma is RAW AND FRESH AGAIN ! I will probably feel like jumping from my 14th floor apartment . However I am looking forward to seeing my Auntie and Uncle on Thursday at the ranch , my mom’s best friend of 80 years . I can’t wait to collapse into her arms . Do you require the therapy dog , that comes into the room ? Like the 3-9 year old’s . They treat people from 3 to 90 years of age . Because tomorrow it’s a very deep dive , as I once more read my file before we go to media . To make sure my memory is correct . Disgusting 🤢 and ignorant people are everywhere !
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Post by fixit on Jun 26, 2023 20:53:25 GMT -5
STOP FALSE ACCUSATIONS!! That is a 2 way comment ! No victim wants to reveal what was done to them . When women , men and children are in court we face exactly what you are seeing here from Dan and passingby . The hot 🥵 line is taking calls from men as well . This is exactly why people don’t report . 2 out of 5 women report , and 1 out of 5 men report because of their fear , which we are again seeing here . As families cut a loved out because they have finally been able to speak . Suicide absolutely becomes a option , because of the treatment they receive from a$$ wipes . Losing your entire family because you spoke is NOT RIGHT ! Their mental health is damaged already . Many are not doing well and your comments are out of line . UNTIL YOU WALK IN OUR SHOES ! Never did my parents abandon me from their lives They witnessed my destruction and just prayed more . Many occasions my parents would visit me after a suicide attempt to ensure I received the help I needed . . DAF sweet thing ! We are seeing that right now with one survivor that's come out and is now being shunned. Ended up in urgent care and doesn't want to live. Family shunned them. False accusations are horrific because it makes those who are telling the truth have to face skepticism far more often. The workers calling an individual a 'troublemaker' and encouraging the family to shun them is happening right now. Snow, could you please include a link when you quote something like this?
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Post by margaret on Jun 27, 2023 21:45:21 GMT -5
if it’s tough being an overseer, it’s because there’s not supposed to be overseers. The excuse that they’re needed to make plans etc is complete nonsense. Jesus said will there be faith on earth when he returns and it seems like faith is the most lacking amongst overseers.
Someone has got to be in charge, otherwise your left with a disorganized mess and no accountability. Paul intervened with the church in Corinth & Thessalonica to straighten-out and correct problems. That was necessary oversight.
I agree that a bad Overseer can be worse than not having one at all. I personally believe that most Workers have faith, but self-discipline and the decision making process has obviously been lacking in some of them.
Imagine your overseeing a group of ministers and a member of the congregation alleges that they were sexually assaulted or abused by one of the preachers that you oversaw. Then you question the accused preacher who adamantly denies that anything happened and he has never been accused of abusing anyone else. So now your faced with a she said he said situation with no other evidence or witnesses to prove who's telling the truth. What do you do?
If workers are indeed led by the spirit, they do not need overseers to guide them. The disciples only had Jesus. The apostles didn’t have overseers. Where is your faith, Dan? Do you have any? You actually think it would be a mess without man controlling everything? Well, I understand you go to meetings so that pretty much speaks for itself. It’s just like Jesus said, will there be faith in earth when he returns and if you cannot see that in the church and in the ministry then your church is just another religion.
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Post by Dan on Jun 27, 2023 23:20:06 GMT -5
Someone has got to be in charge, otherwise your left with a disorganized mess and no accountability. Paul intervened with the church in Corinth & Thessalonica to straighten-out and correct problems. That was necessary oversight.
I agree that a bad Overseer can be worse than not having one at all. I personally believe that most Workers have faith, but self-discipline and the decision making process has obviously been lacking in some of them.
Imagine your overseeing a group of ministers and a member of the congregation alleges that they were sexually assaulted or abused by one of the preachers that you oversaw. Then you question the accused preacher who adamantly denies that anything happened and he has never been accused of abusing anyone else. So now your faced with a she said he said situation with no other evidence or witnesses to prove who's telling the truth. What do you do?
If workers are indeed led by the spirit, they do not need overseers to guide them. The disciples only had Jesus. The apostles didn’t have overseers. Where is your faith, Dan? Do you have any? You actually think it would be a mess without man controlling everything? Well, I understand you go to meetings so that pretty much speaks for itself. It’s just like Jesus said, will there be faith in earth when he returns and if you cannot see that in the church and in the ministry then your church is just another religion.
Being lead by the Spirit doesn't feed the bulldog. Jesus oversaw his disciples, the apostles then became Overseers of the church. Faith is necessary, the conviction of the Holy Spirit is also a necessity, but things don't magically come together without some degree of coordination and oversight. The disciples prepared the Passover meal (Luke22:8), The disciples bought meat (John 4:8), they fed 5000 people (Matthew 14:19), Judas was in charge of the money bag (John 12:6). All of these things were arranged. Jesus is not here to do that now, he relies on men & women of faith for that, and when their decisions & actions are adhered to and done in his name, his work is realized, no matter the church.
Who decides when a church needs a new roof, who mops the floors & mows the lawn, who cooks the stew at convention, who speaks & when? All these things don't fall together by accident, someone has got to bring it all together. That's all I'm saying.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2023 0:12:34 GMT -5
Someone has got to be in charge, otherwise your left with a disorganized mess and no accountability. Paul intervened with the church in Corinth & Thessalonica to straighten-out and correct problems. That was necessary oversight.
I agree that a bad Overseer can be worse than not having one at all. I personally believe that most Workers have faith, but self-discipline and the decision making process has obviously been lacking in some of them.
Imagine your overseeing a group of ministers and a member of the congregation alleges that they were sexually assaulted or abused by one of the preachers that you oversaw. Then you question the accused preacher who adamantly denies that anything happened and he has never been accused of abusing anyone else. So now your faced with a she said he said situation with no other evidence or witnesses to prove who's telling the truth. What do you do?
If workers are indeed led by the spirit, they do not need overseers to guide them. The disciples only had Jesus. The apostles didn’t have overseers. Where is your faith, Dan? Do you have any? You actually think it would be a mess without man controlling everything? Well, I understand you go to meetings so that pretty much speaks for itself. It’s just like Jesus said, will there be faith in earth when he returns and if you cannot see that in the church and in the ministry then your church is just another religion. Another ignorant post...
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Post by Grant on Jun 28, 2023 2:12:46 GMT -5
If workers are indeed led by the spirit, they do not need overseers to guide them. The disciples only had Jesus. The apostles didn’t have overseers. Where is your faith, Dan? Do you have any? You actually think it would be a mess without man controlling everything? Well, I understand you go to meetings so that pretty much speaks for itself. It’s just like Jesus said, will there be faith in earth when he returns and if you cannot see that in the church and in the ministry then your church is just another religion. Being lead by the Spirit doesn't feed the bulldog. Jesus oversaw his disciples, the apostles then became Overseers of the church. Faith is necessary, the conviction of the Holy Spirit is also a necessity, but things don't magically come together without some degree of coordination and oversight. The disciples prepared the Passover meal (Luke22:8), The disciples bought meat (John 4:8), they fed 5000 people (Matthew 14:19), Judas was in charge of the money bag (John 12:6). All of these things were arranged. Jesus is not here to do that now, he relies on men & women of faith for that, and when their decisions & actions are adhered to and done in his name, his work is realized, no matter the church.
Who decides when a church needs a new roof, who mops the floors & mows the lawn, who cooks the stew at convention, who speaks & when? All these things don't fall together by accident, someone has got to bring it all together. That's all I'm saying.
These things are brought together by people in their different roles, not one person. The New Testament church had apostles, elders, deacons, pastors and teachers. The apostles did not perform all these roles. The apostles were like evangelists going out into the world preaching the gospel. There were times when they returned to a location for a period of time only to go out on a journey again. They were not overseers. The body working together in unity. Not little God's or popes like overseers / head workers power structure.
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Post by mountain on Jun 28, 2023 3:09:45 GMT -5
Being lead by the Spirit doesn't feed the bulldog. Jesus oversaw his disciples, the apostles then became Overseers of the church. Faith is necessary, the conviction of the Holy Spirit is also a necessity, but things don't magically come together without some degree of coordination and oversight. The disciples prepared the Passover meal (Luke22:8), The disciples bought meat (John 4:8), they fed 5000 people (Matthew 14:19), Judas was in charge of the money bag (John 12:6). All of these things were arranged. Jesus is not here to do that now, he relies on men & women of faith for that, and when their decisions & actions are adhered to and done in his name, his work is realized, no matter the church.
Who decides when a church needs a new roof, who mops the floors & mows the lawn, who cooks the stew at convention, who speaks & when? All these things don't fall together by accident, someone has got to bring it all together. That's all I'm saying.
these things are brought together by people in their different roles, not one person. The New Testament church had apostles, elders, deacons, pastors and teachers. The apostles did not perform all these roles. The apostles were like evangelists going out into the world preaching the gospel. There were times when they returned to a location for a period of time only to go out on a journey again. They were not overseers. The body working together in unity. Not little God's or popes like overseers / head workers power structure. Correct....with a capital K! It was the Church who sent out the early missionaries to various parts, especially where the Gospel had not been heard. The following link gives a clear insight into who is supposed to be involved in evangelising for Christ. mtw.org/stories/details/gods-mission-for-the-church-a-look-at-matthew-281820#:~:text=In%20Matthew%2028%3A18%E2%80%9320,Authority In Mark's Gospel Jesus specifically gave a similar message to the eleven remaining apostles. However the context of this must be seen in light of the fact that until he appeared unto them they were full of unbelief and hardness resulting from reports by 'church members' who had seen the risen Christ. The church members were already going out with the Gospel message which the apostles rejected until Christ appeared before them and got them off their butts to do as the others were doing. Thankfully that went well!
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 28, 2023 7:04:53 GMT -5
If workers are indeed led by the spirit, they do not need overseers to guide them. The disciples only had Jesus. The apostles didn’t have overseers. Where is your faith, Dan? Do you have any? You actually think it would be a mess without man controlling everything? Well, I understand you go to meetings so that pretty much speaks for itself. It’s just like Jesus said, will there be faith in earth when he returns and if you cannot see that in the church and in the ministry then your church is just another religion. Another ignorant post... Kudos To You Wally !!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2023 9:39:12 GMT -5
YEP KEEP BASHING THE VICTIMS ! One in psych ward ! Another in urgent care , because of wanting to commit SUICIDE ! This is exactly why they DON’T COME FORWARD BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU ! DAF ! I don't believe Margret is a victim of SA or CSA(could be wrong). You should read what she said more closely about Dan, then think about what Dan has said on here for several years. You'll understand my comment then.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 28, 2023 10:12:15 GMT -5
YEP KEEP BASHING THE VICTIMS ! One in psych ward ! Another in urgent care , because of wanting to commit SUICIDE ! This is exactly why they DON’T COME FORWARD BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU ! DAF ! I don't believe Margret is a victim of SA or CSA(could be wrong). You should read what she said more closely about Dan, then think about what Dan has said on here for several years. You'll understand my comment then. I don’t either Wally . I am well aware of your our stance on here about CSA/SA . Which is awesome by the way the way . Kudos to you for your position !
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 28, 2023 10:19:12 GMT -5
I don't believe Margret is a victim of SA or CSA(could be wrong). You should read what she said more closely about Dan, then think about what Dan has said on here for several years. You'll understand my comment then. I don’t either Wally . I am well aware of your stance on here about CSA/SA . Which is awesome by the way the way . Kudos to you for your position , I am well aware of some one to reveal , to discredit those reporting . Long interaction with C , L and Sheri yesterday . We want to achieve the right for victims to speak . Next step , unknown right now , however a discussion is underway !
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Post by margaret on Jun 29, 2023 9:03:43 GMT -5
YEP KEEP BASHING THE VICTIMS ! One in psych ward ! Another in urgent care , because of wanting to commit SUICIDE ! This is exactly why they DON’T COME FORWARD BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU ! DAF ! I don't believe Margret is a victim of SA or CSA(could be wrong). You should read what she said more closely about Dan, then think about what Dan has said on here for several years. You'll understand my comment then. poor you and poor Dan🙄. Neither of you ever have it coming. Your overseer Nathan isn’t on board much anymore. Kudos to Nathan for stepping down, good example for the rest of the overseers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 9:10:41 GMT -5
I don't believe Margret is a victim of SA or CSA(could be wrong). You should read what she said more closely about Dan, then think about what Dan has said on here for several years. You'll understand my comment then. poor you and poor Dan🙄. Neither of you ever have it coming. Your overseer Nathan isn’t on board much anymore. Kudos to Nathan for stepping down, good example for the rest of the overseers. I see you have your facts twisted again. NAMI they can help...
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