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Post by passingby on Jun 19, 2023 12:03:18 GMT -5
Something lately has occurred to me, and is bothering me to the point of wanting to at least express it.
Abraham and Isaac, testing Abraham's faith. It is touted as an awesome testament of Abrahams belief and faith, and also as an old testament precursor of God sending his Son to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God. But now that I've gotten away from Christianity, I see that story in an entirely and horrifyingly different light. I am amazed the blinders were on and it took me so long. This is the way I see it now. It is an example of just how far a belief and a thought can work on someone to the point of being willing to kill one of your kids to prove that you are willing to hold nothing back. Or as we sang, Give of your best to the Master. If done by anybody else, for any other reason, it's a case of buying a false dream, drinking the cool aid as it's sometimes said, and giving it to your kids too.
It is amazing how we can justify, even glorify some things
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 13:45:04 GMT -5
Something lately has occurred to me, and is bothering me to the point of wanting to at least express it. Abraham and Isaac, testing Abraham's faith. It is touted as an awesome testament of Abrahams belief and faith, and also as an old testament precursor of God sending his Son to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God. But now that I've gotten away from Christianity, I see that story in an entirely and horrifyingly different light. I am amazed the blinders were on and it took me so long. This is the way I see it now. It is an example of just how far a belief and a thought can work on someone to the point of being willing to kill one of your kids to prove that you are willing to hold nothing back. Or as we sang, Give of your best to the Master. If done by anybody else, for any other reason, it's a case of buying a false dream, drinking the cool aid as it's sometimes said, and giving it to your kids too. It is amazing how we can justify, even glorify some things So much of Christianity is justifying the horrific things God did in the OT. The story of Abraham and Isaac was just a story told to reflect the change in the Hebrew people. They, like many of their neighbors, sacrificed children. Many ancient cultures did. When they became more socially evolved they stopped doing that because they finally saw it as wrong. The story is about their God finally saying sacrifice animals instead of your kids. The story of god telling the Hebrews to slaughter the Amalekites for child sacrifice is just another story of how neighboring tribes that still did sacrifice their kids fell from favor in the ancient world. What is horrifying is that these stories are believed to be literal instead of just a reflection on how societies changed over time. We are going through another 'evolution' of awareness now with understanding that homosexuals shouldn't be put to death.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 19, 2023 18:35:25 GMT -5
Something lately has occurred to me, and is bothering me to the point of wanting to at least express it. Abraham and Isaac, testing Abraham's faith. It is touted as an awesome testament of Abrahams belief and faith, and also as an old testament precursor of God sending his Son to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God. But now that I've gotten away from Christianity, I see that story in an entirely and horrifyingly different light. I am amazed the blinders were on and it took me so long. This is the way I see it now. It is an example of just how far a belief and a thought can work on someone to the point of being willing to kill one of your kids to prove that you are willing to hold nothing back. Or as we sang, Give of your best to the Master. If done by anybody else, for any other reason, it's a case of buying a false dream, drinking the cool aid as it's sometimes said, and giving it to your kids too. It is amazing how we can justify, even glorify some things People have had centuries to thread the stories in the Bible together into a unifying philosophy. Even Saint Augustine recognized he was "speculating" of some founding beliefs, but "had to do it" to produce some of his beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2023 22:46:31 GMT -5
Something lately has occurred to me, and is bothering me to the point of wanting to at least express it. Abraham and Isaac, testing Abraham's faith. It is touted as an awesome testament of Abrahams belief and faith, and also as an old testament precursor of God sending his Son to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God. But now that I've gotten away from Christianity, I see that story in an entirely and horrifyingly different light. I am amazed the blinders were on and it took me so long. This is the way I see it now. It is an example of just how far a belief and a thought can work on someone to the point of being willing to kill one of your kids to prove that you are willing to hold nothing back. Or as we sang, Give of your best to the Master. If done by anybody else, for any other reason, it's a case of buying a false dream, drinking the cool aid as it's sometimes said, and giving it to your kids too. It is amazing how we can justify, even glorify some things The clue here is "But now that I've gotten away from Christianity" a good reason why you no longer get it... An earlier similar example is Acts 2. You are not the first.
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Post by passingby on Jun 21, 2023 11:44:34 GMT -5
Something lately has occurred to me, and is bothering me to the point of wanting to at least express it. Abraham and Isaac, testing Abraham's faith. It is touted as an awesome testament of Abrahams belief and faith, and also as an old testament precursor of God sending his Son to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God. But now that I've gotten away from Christianity, I see that story in an entirely and horrifyingly different light. I am amazed the blinders were on and it took me so long. This is the way I see it now. It is an example of just how far a belief and a thought can work on someone to the point of being willing to kill one of your kids to prove that you are willing to hold nothing back. Or as we sang, Give of your best to the Master. If done by anybody else, for any other reason, it's a case of buying a false dream, drinking the cool aid as it's sometimes said, and giving it to your kids too. It is amazing how we can justify, even glorify some things So much of Christianity is justifying the horrific things God did in the OT. The story of Abraham and Isaac was just a story told to reflect the change in the Hebrew people. They, like many of their neighbors, sacrificed children. Many ancient cultures did. When they became more socially evolved they stopped doing that because they finally saw it as wrong. The story is about their God finally saying sacrifice animals instead of your kids. The story of god telling the Hebrews to slaughter the Amalekites for child sacrifice is just another story of how neighboring tribes that still did sacrifice their kids fell from favor in the ancient world. What is horrifying is that these stories are believed to be literal instead of just a reflection on how societies changed over time. We are going through another 'evolution' of awareness now with understanding that homosexuals shouldn't be put to death. Thanks Snow, Yeah, yours above is a lot as I see things too. Definitely true about watching Christianity struggling, and their painfully slow evolving about homosexuality. For me it's been close to home because I have a brother, born again Christian, who is utterly convinced, thanks to the guidance and preaching from the stage, that homosexuality is a learned behavior, should be condemned, and horribly worse imo, can and should be unlearned. There's just no convincing him (with my logic anyway) things are otherwise. Imo, Anyone thinking like that, who is willing to listen to even a small number of personal homosexual coming of age stories would realize maybe room aught to be made toward a little more understanding. To me the sacrificing the best of your stuff to the Master thing started early on, practically the beginning, with Cain and Abel, at least the 1st biblically recorded example. Although it's not the principal thing in the shift, I wonder if in part abandoning that practice was helped considerably by the utterly common sense fact that sacrificing your best crops, or animals to the flames, was just stupid, - that is if you wanted to improve your flock or field, and so help feed and sustain your kin and neighbors.
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Post by passingby on Jun 21, 2023 11:48:45 GMT -5
Something lately has occurred to me, and is bothering me to the point of wanting to at least express it. Abraham and Isaac, testing Abraham's faith. It is touted as an awesome testament of Abrahams belief and faith, and also as an old testament precursor of God sending his Son to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God. But now that I've gotten away from Christianity, I see that story in an entirely and horrifyingly different light. I am amazed the blinders were on and it took me so long. This is the way I see it now. It is an example of just how far a belief and a thought can work on someone to the point of being willing to kill one of your kids to prove that you are willing to hold nothing back. Or as we sang, Give of your best to the Master. If done by anybody else, for any other reason, it's a case of buying a false dream, drinking the cool aid as it's sometimes said, and giving it to your kids too. It is amazing how we can justify, even glorify some things People have had centuries to thread the stories in the Bible together into a unifying philosophy. Even Saint Augustine recognized he was "speculating" of some founding beliefs, but "had to do it" to produce some of his beliefs. Yeah, nice to be free of those bonds eh?
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Post by passingby on Jun 21, 2023 12:24:38 GMT -5
Something lately has occurred to me, and is bothering me to the point of wanting to at least express it. Abraham and Isaac, testing Abraham's faith. It is touted as an awesome testament of Abrahams belief and faith, and also as an old testament precursor of God sending his Son to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb of God. But now that I've gotten away from Christianity, I see that story in an entirely and horrifyingly different light. I am amazed the blinders were on and it took me so long. This is the way I see it now. It is an example of just how far a belief and a thought can work on someone to the point of being willing to kill one of your kids to prove that you are willing to hold nothing back. Or as we sang, Give of your best to the Master. If done by anybody else, for any other reason, it's a case of buying a false dream, drinking the cool aid as it's sometimes said, and giving it to your kids too. It is amazing how we can justify, even glorify some things The clue here is "But now that I've gotten away from Christianity" a good reason why you no longer get it... An earlier similar example is Acts 2. You are not the first. Hi Wally, Thanks for mentioning Acts 2, for the life of me I couldn't think of what you could be referring to in Acts 2 concerning sacrificing your best to the Master, like your 1st born or the best of your worldly goods, etc (all of which more correctly I wish would have a word meaning "gladly giving"), but thanks for the prompt, it was a good read again. Quite the gospel speech and msg there by Peter. Maybe you were referring to giving up all to the common purse, one for all, there at the end? Anyway, along those lines, something I realized at some point in my life is that the much revered and admired example of the workers giving up all, is no more or less than is required of each of us anyway. Our all. Acts ch 4 if you don't. Something not preached of too often, I suppose because many would not be willing. Sounds like you were and are. No condemnation about that from me, I at least, and maybe others here too, have been there. In any case, should you ever get it into your head that the ultimate proof or show of your love and loyalty would be to give up your nearest and dearest as a burnt offering to God. DON'T DO IT!! I don't know about you, but even as a kid that alternative of the Ram caught in the thicket seemed suspiciously unbelievable, and frankly, disappointing. If you're going to Do It, If you believe in the voice and word of God, then do it and Glory to God be it. None of this - well, I never intended for you to have to go through with it, I was just checking how far you'd really be willing to go if I asked you to, crap.
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Post by passingby on Jul 10, 2023 12:04:08 GMT -5
Don't mind me, just rambling on with continued musings about Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac. From the perspective that this was a thought that got started in Abraham's head, and ate at him until he finally felt it was God definitely speaking and he had to do it, to prove?? maybe everything. From that perspective, I start to see a lot of evidence that Abraham had doubts about this from the beginning all the way through until the surprising end, maybe it was those very doubts he was putting to death. Maybe some of us have been put in the position of - are you willing - do you believe - then prove it. That proverbial still small voice gone arry eating at us. The phrase, working up the courage .... comes to mind as similar. Anyway - notably lacking at the very beginning is any recorded input from Sarah. Besides the whole problematic issues with what women were apparently primarily good for in those days, he seems to have left her out of it entirely: just what he had in mind, in spite of, maybe purposefully because of all the drama and trauma and difficulties around Isaac's conception and raising in the 1st place. (what an interesting read, btw) And why did he have to go off to some God knows where far off place in the first place to make this sacrifice? Shouldn't this have been a big and public and glory to God kind of thing? like we're supposed to believe it is/was to this day? So off they go, a few days more to think about it and be sure, step by step. And then, all the lying about it to Isaac, and the entourage, and everybody else it seems. - It just reeks. Something is not right here. Then of course the surprise and really hardly believable ending. A suspicious but possible out, for believers. One more thing, Something I've noticed in this forum, in spite of frequent condemnation and bashing of 2x2's in all directions, I also sometimes hear it said, 'but I don't necessarily blame my parents. I love, excuse, and accept them.' That seems to be the case here with Isaac too. interesting eh?
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Post by snow on Jul 10, 2023 15:07:49 GMT -5
Don't mind me, just rambling on with continued musings about Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac. From the perspective that this was a thought that got started in Abraham's head, and ate at him until he finally felt it was God definitely speaking and he had to do it, to prove?? maybe everything. From that perspective, I start to see a lot of evidence that Abraham had doubts about this from the beginning all the way through until the surprising end, maybe it was those very doubts he was putting to death. Maybe some of us have been put in the position of - are you willing - do you believe - then prove it. That proverbial still small voice gone arry eating at us. The phrase, working up the courage .... comes to mind as similar. Anyway - notably lacking at the very beginning is any recorded input from Sarah. Besides the whole problematic issues with what women were apparently primarily good for in those days, he seems to have left her out of it entirely: just what he had in mind, in spite of, maybe purposefully because of all the drama and trauma and difficulties around Isaac's conception and raising in the 1st place. (what an interesting read, btw) And why did he have to go off to some God knows where far off place in the first place to make this sacrifice? Shouldn't this have been a big and public and glory to God kind of thing? like we're supposed to believe it is/was to this day? So off they go, a few days more to think about it and be sure, step by step. And then, all the lying about it to Isaac, and the entourage, and everybody else it seems. - It just reeks. Something is not right here. Then of course the surprise and really hardly believable ending. A suspicious but possible out, for believers. One more thing, Something I've noticed in this forum, in spite of frequent condemnation and bashing of 2x2's in all directions, I also sometimes hear it said, 'but I don't necessarily blame my parents. I love, excuse, and accept them.' That seems to be the case here with Isaac too. interesting eh? Yes the story of Isaac is really messed up. But I don't think it was ever meant to be taken literally. I believe it was a symbolism of changes in the Hebrew nation when they evolved enough to realize sacrificing their children wasn't really a kosher thing to do so they began to sacrifice animals instead. And, now they don't even do that anymore. Cultures grow ethically. Well some of them anyway...
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