GoBlue
Senior Member
Posts: 201
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Post by GoBlue on Jun 16, 2023 22:07:32 GMT -5
I logged into TMB a few days ago after not having logged in for years. I re-read my posts from 2005-2012. So we had a conversation, just the two of us. "Me Now" and "Me Then" - MN and MT. MT: So how are you doing? It’s been quite a few years! MN: Fine, thanks, couldn’t be better.MT: No, really. How are you doing? MN: Well, I’ve gotten sucked into the same spiral again. MT: You mean where you refresh TMB and the other sites multiple times during the day? MN: Yes, I remember you doing that when you first started reading them. MT: Yes, I remember doing that. It's been over two decades now since I first started reading TMB. I remember where I was sitting that day, and I remember that feeling of guilt that I shouldn’t be reading this. But it was like looking at something from a vantage point I had never experienced before. I looked at things with glasses I hadn’t worn before. I saw stuff I didn’t want to see. But a lot of it was true and I couldn’t ignore it. So what made you start reading again this time? MN: The sexual abuse. The horrible issues that are symptoms of deep problems. MT: Wait! There are still the same issues??? They still haven’t deal with that? Didn't they say there would be zero tolerance and everybody would get trained? Well, what are you going to do about it now? Why do you even care after leaving meetings over a decade ago. Have we learned nothing? What is the problem with people? Where does this end up? Gosh, so many questions; I’m sorry. Let me ask you one more question and then I’ll shut up and let you talk. In hindsight, was I bitter back then? Some accused me of being bitter in how I reacted to all the stuff back then. And where is Scott Ross? Is he still helping out with moderating? MN: Whoa, take a breath. And let me catch my breath. I teared up when you mentioned Scott; I haven’t thought about him in a while. I loved that guy. What a heart of gold that guy had! Never got to meet him, even though he said he was going to ride his motorcycle down. But he never made it down and then cancer got him 2-3 years ago. Let me see if I can remember your questions. My memory isn't what it used to be. Yes, same issues, just worse. Some things have been learned. Maybe not learned in the way that you or I thought they would. But people have learned. Some learned to hide things better, unfortunately. I pray that a few learned about the gift of true repentance, but I wouldn’t expect to find those stories on TMB. I doubt there are many posting on TMB that were posting back then. People learn and grow and move on. I’m a different person that I was back then. Why do I care now? Good question… It’s still part of my DNA from four generations before me. So I can’t ignore that. I have many fond memories, and family and friends still in meetings. It’s impossible to walk away and leave those connections. I didn’t choose to be born into this, but I was and it’s part of who I am. So I’ve gotten sucked into this spiral again because this group is a part of me. But overall, I feel terrible for the victims of abuse. Abuse and pain in so many ways. People still burying their heads to avoid seeing the pain and abuse. Workers that are in way over their head. And some of us no longer attending but still can’t stop looking because of the victims' pain and abuse. Where and when will the next case be swept out from under the rug? It’s like watching a train wreck in slow motion – you know you shouldn’t watch it, but you can’t look away. You wish you could help, but you feel there’s not much you can do. You know people are hurting, and there will be more pain. You wonder if there will be anything left of the group when the smoke clears. MT: So what would you tell people? Let’s imagine you were at convention again and you had the opportunity to share your testimony. What would you say? But remember, you can’t be bitter, oK? (haha) MN: No, I wouldn’t be bitter. I don’t have a desire to be at convention; that would be uncomfortable and not much fun. My family doesn’t go to mtgs anymore. The experience of leaving was hard on them, and I own that and repent of how I handled that. But the kids still like reminiscing about cocoa and sandwiches after the last meeting. (haha) If I were forced to share something, I would go back to first principles and definitions of expressions. That’s just how I like to process things. MT: What do you mean by that? MN: First principles of salvation. Maybe I’d say something simple, like - If you were to die tonight right after you took your first sip of cocoa, what happens? Heaven or hell? And if heaven, why should God let you into heaven? I would also briefly mention the expressions that seemed so comfortable then and now trigger emotional reactions. MT: What expressions? MN: Oh, stuff like: He’s bitter. They lost out. I felt the spirit. I was fed. They’re saved. The truth. The way.MT: I get the bitter, lost out, and other expressions. But what’s wrong with “I felt the spirit.” And “I was fed”? MN: They’re subjective emotional responses that cannot be used to verify if something is right or wrong. Based on my experience when I said that years ago, now viewed in hindsight, what I meant by “I felt the spirit” was I felt a sense of unity. And I enjoyed that sense of unity in different states, different countries, different continents. But that sense of unity should really be a wake up call. We should ask: Unity in what? Usually that means unity of language, appearance and format. All external items. And what that really means is that there is a control factor. Is that control factor the Holy Spirit, third person of the trinity, bringing the unity to the group? Or is the unity produced by control from men? And if the control is from men, you would then expect to see abuse of power, and you then get what we’re getting now. I see the unity of expressions, appearance and meeting format as symptoms of control, not a manifestation of the Spirit.MT: Careful, some are going to accuse you of being bitter again. 😊 MN: Haha. That’s ok; I know you said that in all good humor. But notice how even that expression gets thrown around to shut down the conversation or deflect from the real issue and turn the attention away from the point being made and turns it to the person who can then be accused of having a wrong spirit. The underlying issue is wrong doctrine. Bad ideas lead to bad outcomes. Bad theology (the root cause) leads to bad practices and abuse (the symptoms). A message of exclusivity is wrong doctrine and a false message of salvation. This leads to control, which leads to abuse; the horrible symptoms of the tragic root cause.
MT: So what else have you observed from your time away? MN: I re-read what you wrote back then, and some of those memories aren’t even in my brain anymore. I’m glad you wrote them down, because some of them are completely gone from my memory now. Maybe I am getting dementia? That’s scary to think about, actually. And you were a better writer back then than I am now.
MT: So where do we go from here? MN: How about wandering over to that line by the tent and grabbing us some hot cocoa, some cookies and an egg salad sandwich?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2023 1:51:08 GMT -5
It's okay the voices in my head told me so...
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Post by ScholarGal on Jun 21, 2023 22:32:14 GMT -5
What a great post!
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Post by deadawake on Jun 22, 2023 3:06:39 GMT -5
I logged into TMB a few days ago after not having logged in for years. I re-read my posts from 2005-2012. So we had a conversation, just the two of us. "Me Now" and "Me Then" - MN and MT. MT: So how are you doing? It’s been quite a few years! MN: Fine, thanks, couldn’t be better.MT: No, really. How are you doing? MN: Well, I’ve gotten sucked into the same spiral again. MT: You mean where you refresh TMB and the other sites multiple times during the day? MN: Yes, I remember you doing that when you first started reading them. MT: Yes, I remember doing that. It's been over two decades now since I first started reading TMB. I remember where I was sitting that day, and I remember that feeling of guilt that I shouldn’t be reading this. But it was like looking at something from a vantage point I had never experienced before. I looked at things with glasses I hadn’t worn before. I saw stuff I didn’t want to see. But a lot of it was true and I couldn’t ignore it. So what made you start reading again this time? MN: The sexual abuse. The horrible issues that are symptoms of deep problems. MT: Wait! There are still the same issues??? They still haven’t deal with that? Didn't they say there would be zero tolerance and everybody would get trained? Well, what are you going to do about it now? Why do you even care after leaving meetings over a decade ago. Have we learned nothing? What is the problem with people? Where does this end up? Gosh, so many questions; I’m sorry. Let me ask you one more question and then I’ll shut up and let you talk. In hindsight, was I bitter back then? Some accused me of being bitter in how I reacted to all the stuff back then. And where is Scott Ross? Is he still helping out with moderating? MN: Whoa, take a breath. And let me catch my breath. I teared up when you mentioned Scott; I haven’t thought about him in a while. I loved that guy. What a heart of gold that guy had! Never got to meet him, even though he said he was going to ride his motorcycle down. But he never made it down and then cancer got him 2-3 years ago. Let me see if I can remember your questions. My memory isn't what it used to be. Yes, same issues, just worse. Some things have been learned. Maybe not learned in the way that you or I thought they would. But people have learned. Some learned to hide things better, unfortunately. I pray that a few learned about the gift of true repentance, but I wouldn’t expect to find those stories on TMB. I doubt there are many posting on TMB that were posting back then. People learn and grow and move on. I’m a different person that I was back then. Why do I care now? Good question… It’s still part of my DNA from four generations before me. So I can’t ignore that. I have many fond memories, and family and friends still in meetings. It’s impossible to walk away and leave those connections. I didn’t choose to be born into this, but I was and it’s part of who I am. So I’ve gotten sucked into this spiral again because this group is a part of me. But overall, I feel terrible for the victims of abuse. Abuse and pain in so many ways. People still burying their heads to avoid seeing the pain and abuse. Workers that are in way over their head. And some of us no longer attending but still can’t stop looking because of the victims' pain and abuse. Where and when will the next case be swept out from under the rug? It’s like watching a train wreck in slow motion – you know you shouldn’t watch it, but you can’t look away. You wish you could help, but you feel there’s not much you can do. You know people are hurting, and there will be more pain. You wonder if there will be anything left of the group when the smoke clears. MT: So what would you tell people? Let’s imagine you were at convention again and you had the opportunity to share your testimony. What would you say? But remember, you can’t be bitter, oK? (haha) MN: No, I wouldn’t be bitter. I don’t have a desire to be at convention; that would be uncomfortable and not much fun. My family doesn’t go to mtgs anymore. The experience of leaving was hard on them, and I own that and repent of how I handled that. But the kids still like reminiscing about cocoa and sandwiches after the last meeting. (haha) If I were forced to share something, I would go back to first principles and definitions of expressions. That’s just how I like to process things. MT: What do you mean by that? MN: First principles of salvation. Maybe I’d say something simple, like - If you were to die tonight right after you took your first sip of cocoa, what happens? Heaven or hell? And if heaven, why should God let you into heaven? I would also briefly mention the expressions that seemed so comfortable then and now trigger emotional reactions. MT: What expressions? MN: Oh, stuff like: He’s bitter. They lost out. I felt the spirit. I was fed. They’re saved. The truth. The way.MT: I get the bitter, lost out, and other expressions. But what’s wrong with “I felt the spirit.” And “I was fed”? MN: They’re subjective emotional responses that cannot be used to verify if something is right or wrong. Based on my experience when I said that years ago, now viewed in hindsight, what I meant by “I felt the spirit” was I felt a sense of unity. And I enjoyed that sense of unity in different states, different countries, different continents. But that sense of unity should really be a wake up call. We should ask: Unity in what? Usually that means unity of language, appearance and format. All external items. And what that really means is that there is a control factor. Is that control factor the Holy Spirit, third person of the trinity, bringing the unity to the group? Or is the unity produced by control from men? And if the control is from men, you would then expect to see abuse of power, and you then get what we’re getting now. I see the unity of expressions, appearance and meeting format as symptoms of control, not a manifestation of the Spirit.MT: Careful, some are going to accuse you of being bitter again. 😊 MN: Haha. That’s ok; I know you said that in all good humor. But notice how even that expression gets thrown around to shut down the conversation or deflect from the real issue and turn the attention away from the point being made and turns it to the person who can then be accused of having a wrong spirit. The underlying issue is wrong doctrine. Bad ideas lead to bad outcomes. Bad theology (the root cause) leads to bad practices and abuse (the symptoms). A message of exclusivity is wrong doctrine and a false message of salvation. This leads to control, which leads to abuse; the horrible symptoms of the tragic root cause.
MT: So what else have you observed from your time away? MN: I re-read what you wrote back then, and some of those memories aren’t even in my brain anymore. I’m glad you wrote them down, because some of them are completely gone from my memory now. Maybe I am getting dementia? That’s scary to think about, actually. And you were a better writer back then than I am now.
MT: So where do we go from here? MN: How about wandering over to that line by the tent and grabbing us some hot cocoa, some cookies and an egg salad sandwich?
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Post by deadawake on Jun 22, 2023 3:17:49 GMT -5
This was very lovely. I needed this tonight. I ask myself why I am still drawn to all that is going on in the fellowship after more than 15 years on the outside. I have not been bitter, for the most part. Mostly I have very fond memories. In fact the memories of joy and "unity", as you mention, are so much more than any of the memories I have of struggling. But I didn't leave because of struggling. I sobbed the last time I walked home from meeting because I knew that I no longer felt life in it. I had to let go of all of my friends abd way of life... I gave my all...and I left empty.
Thanks for sharing.
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Post by fixit on Jun 22, 2023 3:32:53 GMT -5
This was very lovely. I needed this tonight. I ask myself why I am still drawn to all that is going on in the fellowship after more than 15 years on the outside. I have not been bitter, for the most part. Mostly I have very fond memories. In fact the memories of joy and "unity", as you mention, are so much more than any of the memories I have of struggling. But I didn't leave because of struggling. I sobbed the last time I walked home from meeting because I knew that I no longer felt life in it. I had to let go of all of my friends abd way of life... I gave my all...and I left empty. Thanks for sharing. Did you find life somewhere else?
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Post by deadawake on Jun 22, 2023 3:55:26 GMT -5
Did you find life somewhere else?
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Post by deadawake on Jun 22, 2023 3:56:22 GMT -5
I did! Turns out life is all around us. 🙂
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