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Post by mod5 on May 29, 2023 3:02:36 GMT -5
The following was posted on WINGSfortruth….
Some thoughts on church:
I have been professing for more than 30 years. I love our special little fellowship. I am writing this in love. I have no desire to cause conflict. I am not angry.
But this has been weighing on me for many years. I feel it needs to be brought into the light and discussed openly. I think it’s crucial to talk about it now because it’s at the root of the systemic problem causing so much hurt.
There has been a prevailing belief that our specific little fellowship is respected by God above all other Christian organizations. A belief that all other churches are false, “worldly”, misled and wrong. This is wrong. It needs to stop.
I hear it less often today than when I was young, and that gives me hope. Who among us has not heard someone speak in a meeting, “My neighbor says he’s a Christian, but I’m thankful WE know the True Way.”
This doesn’t feed anyone’s soul. This isn’t spiritual bread. This is hypocritical Phariseeism. “I thank Thee that I am not like other men are.”
The belief that the church in the home, the itinerant ministers traveling in pairs - that this FORM is our hope, is not Biblical. It’s an idol that has been tacked onto the Gospel, suggesting that salvation is not in Christ, but in the form in which we gather. I do not believe this, and I will not teach it to my children.
I believe that this misunderstanding is at the root of the abuses and misconduct within our fellowship. It has lifted up our ministry and our form as above reproach and created a power structure that is not to be questioned and has no accountability. This is not what Jesus laid out. It’s false, damaging, and a recipe for spiritual disaster.
Scripture clearly condemns sectarianism. (emphasis mine)
Luke 9:49-50
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
1 Cor 12:3-7
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Romans 10:11-13
For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
1 Cor 1:10
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
I believe that anyone who is honest and who has studied scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit understands and believes that our fellowship is NOT the only right church. That our salvation is in Jesus Christ. To put our hope in anything else is simply the definition of idol worship. It’s legalism and an insult to His sacrifice.
I am hopeful that this will soon be openly discussed among the friends and even spoken aloud by our ministry, as a correction of this terrible error. Because it has done a lot of damage.
I even believe that most of the friends and workers are in agreement with me, but are afraid to speak it. I would like to see that change.
We are followers of Christ. If we want to have a healthy church that brings souls to Him and that shepherds its flock well, we need to have Biblically sound doctrine.
Please discuss and share this letter widely.
With love,
A friend
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Post by mod5 on May 29, 2023 3:04:26 GMT -5
Another one….
After reading the most recent letter that captured so well the problem enshrined in exclusivity, I feel compelled to write. Silence at this point is complicity.
I applaud all those who have courageously shared their experiences as victims of abuse; sexual, physical, emotional and spiritual. We have heard from current and former workers, and current and former members of our fellowship. I say “our” as one who was raised going to meetings and has spent the last 30 years as an active participant. How much longer is an open question. It is fully understandable that most, if not all who have shared their pain and their experiences choose to remain anonymous. I choose to sign my name to this letter. These are my thoughts and convictions, and mine alone.
To be clear, I am not a victim of abuse, at least not the most direct kind. But unlike many previous authors, I am angry.
I have brushed against abuse and abusers for my entire life, under the auspices of those entrusted with spreading the gospel, but did not know it. At least three known pedophiles spent significant time in my home as a child, teenager, young adult, and now as a father with my own children. None were known to me or my family, but all were known to the overseers at the time. This only counts those that admitted their proclivities and crimes, not the generational monster that was Dean Bruer, who also spent a significant amount of time in our home, or any who have not yet been named and brought into the open. For a “never” event, that is far too frequent. It must also be acknowledged that what has been revealed in the past two months has been grudging at best, and had Dean not died, would not be known. That is inexcusable. We keep hearing about the example of King David and giving grace to sinners as a way to pardon the repeated missteps in past and prior handling of abuse. Annaias and Saphira (Acts 5:1) are the examples we should be discussing. They intended good for the nascent Christian community by selling their property and donating the proceeds, but withheld money and lied, first by omission, then by commission when confronted. Both were struck down in that moment. There are consequences for actions. I don’t pretend to know any person’s status with God, and believe that anyone can find and follow their own revelation and conviction. God is the final arbiter for all, but from a human perspective, nearly the entire current leadership has lost my respect and confidence.
As horrifying as the crimes of pedophilia and sexual abuse are, as tragic as it is that multiple workers and friends have endured their own emotional and spiritual abuse, as egregious as it is that endemic denial and deflection have pushed a Christian ideal into the realm of abuse, we are still discussing symptoms, not the root of the problem.
The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right. The most common term used to self-identify is “the Truth”, which says it all. This reeks of pride and self-righteousness. It also creates a clear and immediate in-group and out-group (with approximately 8 billion people in the out-group) and a moral and spiritual imperative. I will go further than prior posters and say that as long as this pervasive and damaging doctrine exists, no substantive change is possible. It is not enough to say that it is spoken less frequently or directly, or hear it preached less forcefully from the platform at convention. It has clearly and cogently been spoken for generations, with concomitant and lasting damage. Redaction needs to be equally clear and forceful. There is a legacy of sanctimony, hypocrisy, and refusal to allow change directly tied to this dogma, and a level of spiritual coercion that cannot be overstated. If salvation hangs in the balance, there is simply no choice–one belongs to this fellowship and toes the line, or one winds up in hell. The current crisis, the slowly unfolding nuclear implosion enveloping the church, is the fruit. Matthew 7 lays bare the truth–false teachings lead to bad fruit. As Matthew suggests, those trees need to be cut down and burned. However, it is impossible to be an agent for change when no alternative exists. The level of change needed is more than structural, it is seismic. The ecumenical church that many of us wish for is so far from the current structure that it might as well be a fantasy. We need our own Martin Luther to nail his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of a church. But we don’t have a church building of course, another facet of which we are inordinately proud.
Second, as so many have pointed out, the pervasive denial of a power structure or hierarchy is almost as damaging, and a simple way to avoid responsibility. We are apparently not one body in Christ, but 18 geographic bodies (in the U.S. at least) with their own Ordnung, following a roughly similar tangent as Christians. Very simple way to pass the buck, and hyper-convenient way to pass abusers on without dealing with their actions. Our workers have the authority to assign location of fellowship, elders in those meetings, and who can or cannot take part. They have the authority to say who can and cannot take the emblems, the most direct and physical connection to Christ. They are the gateway to baptism, the closest thing we have to admission into the legacy of Jesus’ life. That is power, and when combined with a dogma that states we are God’s chosen people, it is a truly singular form of power. The overseers control every facet of the lives of those workers in their sphere of influence. They decide whom to allow to enter the ministry, where they labor, who their co-workers will be, and when/if they are dismissed from the ministry. That is clearly power. In the meetings, the hierarchy is clear, with women at the bottom and men/elders on the next rung. Within the ministry, the hierarchy is also quite clear, with all women at the bottom, younger men on the next step up, and exclusively older/experienced men at the top. To deny this structure exists is disingenuous at best, outright malfeasance at worst. There is no system of feedback or accountability, so combined with a dash of narcissism, the result is a recipe for abuse of all flavors with no recourse.
I believe that the majority of those attending meetings are good and loving people with well-intentioned ideals. I believe the same can be said of the majority of workers, who are willing to give their lives in service to this ideal. I believe the current church structure has strayed so far from the stated ideal that it is untenable. I am angry, and believe there is a silent majority in the church who are in accord but has no voice. Until the problem is named, change is not possible. Once named, change remains a far-off and potentially unreachable goal, but honesty is a start.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 29, 2023 3:13:34 GMT -5
The following was posted on WINGSfortruth…. Some thoughts on church: I have been professing for more than 30 years. I love our special little fellowship. I am writing this in love. I have no desire to cause conflict. I am not angry. But this has been weighing on me for many years. I feel it needs to be brought into the light and discussed openly. I think it’s crucial to talk about it now because it’s at the root of the systemic problem causing so much hurt. There has been a prevailing belief that our specific little fellowship is respected by God above all other Christian organizations. A belief that all other churches are false, “worldly”, misled and wrong. This is wrong. It needs to stop. I hear it less often today than when I was young, and that gives me hope. Who among us has not heard someone speak in a meeting, “My neighbor says he’s a Christian, but I’m thankful WE know the True Way.” This doesn’t feed anyone’s soul. This isn’t spiritual bread. This is hypocritical Phariseeism. “I thank Thee that I am not like other men are.” The belief that the church in the home, the itinerant ministers traveling in pairs - that this FORM is our hope, is not Biblical. It’s an idol that has been tacked onto the Gospel, suggesting that salvation is not in Christ, but in the form in which we gather. I do not believe this, and I will not teach it to my children. I believe that this misunderstanding is at the root of the abuses and misconduct within our fellowship. It has lifted up our ministry and our form as above reproach and created a power structure that is not to be questioned and has no accountability. This is not what Jesus laid out. It’s false, damaging, and a recipe for spiritual disaster. Scripture clearly condemns sectarianism. (emphasis mine) Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. 1 Cor 12:3-7 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Romans 10:11-13 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 1 Cor 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I believe that anyone who is honest and who has studied scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit understands and believes that our fellowship is NOT the only right church. That our salvation is in Jesus Christ. To put our hope in anything else is simply the definition of idol worship. It’s legalism and an insult to His sacrifice. I am hopeful that this will soon be openly discussed among the friends and even spoken aloud by our ministry, as a correction of this terrible error. Because it has done a lot of damage. I even believe that most of the friends and workers are in agreement with me, but are afraid to speak it. I would like to see that change. We are followers of Christ. If we want to have a healthy church that brings souls to Him and that shepherds its flock well, we need to have Biblically sound doctrine. Please discuss and share this letter widely. With love, A friend This is well said
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Post by openingact34 on May 29, 2023 10:07:07 GMT -5
The following was posted on WINGSfortruth…. Some thoughts on church: I have been professing for more than 30 years. I love our special little fellowship. I am writing this in love. I have no desire to cause conflict. I am not angry. But this has been weighing on me for many years. I feel it needs to be brought into the light and discussed openly. I think it’s crucial to talk about it now because it’s at the root of the systemic problem causing so much hurt. There has been a prevailing belief that our specific little fellowship is respected by God above all other Christian organizations. A belief that all other churches are false, “worldly”, misled and wrong. This is wrong. It needs to stop. I hear it less often today than when I was young, and that gives me hope. Who among us has not heard someone speak in a meeting, “My neighbor says he’s a Christian, but I’m thankful WE know the True Way.” This doesn’t feed anyone’s soul. This isn’t spiritual bread. This is hypocritical Phariseeism. “I thank Thee that I am not like other men are.” The belief that the church in the home, the itinerant ministers traveling in pairs - that this FORM is our hope, is not Biblical. It’s an idol that has been tacked onto the Gospel, suggesting that salvation is not in Christ, but in the form in which we gather. I do not believe this, and I will not teach it to my children. I believe that this misunderstanding is at the root of the abuses and misconduct within our fellowship. It has lifted up our ministry and our form as above reproach and created a power structure that is not to be questioned and has no accountability. This is not what Jesus laid out. It’s false, damaging, and a recipe for spiritual disaster. Scripture clearly condemns sectarianism. (emphasis mine) Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. 1 Cor 12:3-7 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Romans 10:11-13 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 1 Cor 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I believe that anyone who is honest and who has studied scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit understands and believes that our fellowship is NOT the only right church. That our salvation is in Jesus Christ. To put our hope in anything else is simply the definition of idol worship. It’s legalism and an insult to His sacrifice. I am hopeful that this will soon be openly discussed among the friends and even spoken aloud by our ministry, as a correction of this terrible error. Because it has done a lot of damage. I even believe that most of the friends and workers are in agreement with me, but are afraid to speak it. I would like to see that change. We are followers of Christ. If we want to have a healthy church that brings souls to Him and that shepherds its flock well, we need to have Biblically sound doctrine. Please discuss and share this letter widely. With love, A friend This is well said This is all cherry picked scripture. These people would have HATED being in the first century church under the rule of Peter or Paul.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2023 10:35:44 GMT -5
The following was posted on WINGSfortruth…. Some thoughts on church: I have been professing for more than 30 years. I love our special little fellowship. I am writing this in love. I have no desire to cause conflict. I am not angry. But this has been weighing on me for many years. I feel it needs to be brought into the light and discussed openly. I think it’s crucial to talk about it now because it’s at the root of the systemic problem causing so much hurt. There has been a prevailing belief that our specific little fellowship is respected by God above all other Christian organizations. A belief that all other churches are false, “worldly”, misled and wrong. This is wrong. It needs to stop. I hear it less often today than when I was young, and that gives me hope. Who among us has not heard someone speak in a meeting, “My neighbor says he’s a Christian, but I’m thankful WE know the True Way.” This doesn’t feed anyone’s soul. This isn’t spiritual bread. This is hypocritical Phariseeism. “I thank Thee that I am not like other men are.” The belief that the church in the home, the itinerant ministers traveling in pairs - that this FORM is our hope, is not Biblical. It’s an idol that has been tacked onto the Gospel, suggesting that salvation is not in Christ, but in the form in which we gather. I do not believe this, and I will not teach it to my children. I believe that this misunderstanding is at the root of the abuses and misconduct within our fellowship. It has lifted up our ministry and our form as above reproach and created a power structure that is not to be questioned and has no accountability. This is not what Jesus laid out. It’s false, damaging, and a recipe for spiritual disaster. Scripture clearly condemns sectarianism. (emphasis mine) Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. 1 Cor 12:3-7 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Romans 10:11-13 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 1 Cor 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I believe that anyone who is honest and who has studied scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit understands and believes that our fellowship is NOT the only right church. That our salvation is in Jesus Christ. To put our hope in anything else is simply the definition of idol worship. It’s legalism and an insult to His sacrifice. I am hopeful that this will soon be openly discussed among the friends and even spoken aloud by our ministry, as a correction of this terrible error. Because it has done a lot of damage. I even believe that most of the friends and workers are in agreement with me, but are afraid to speak it. I would like to see that change. We are followers of Christ. If we want to have a healthy church that brings souls to Him and that shepherds its flock well, we need to have Biblically sound doctrine. Please discuss and share this letter widely. With love, A friend I question some of this. Scripture didn't record how they did things for idle gossip. It's there for a reason. That is if we believe scripture is God/Christ/HS inspired and revealed. Totally agree that the 2x2'as are not the only denomination that the faithful will be brought out of, but they are the best method that I've ever seen in comparison to the 1st century church even with the current roaches running for cover now that the lights are on.
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Post by christiansburg on May 29, 2023 18:54:35 GMT -5
The following was posted on WINGSfortruth…. Some thoughts on church: I have been professing for more than 30 years. I love our special little fellowship. I am writing this in love. I have no desire to cause conflict. I am not angry. But this has been weighing on me for many years. I feel it needs to be brought into the light and discussed openly. I think it’s crucial to talk about it now because it’s at the root of the systemic problem causing so much hurt. There has been a prevailing belief that our specific little fellowship is respected by God above all other Christian organizations. A belief that all other churches are false, “worldly”, misled and wrong. This is wrong. It needs to stop. I hear it less often today than when I was young, and that gives me hope. Who among us has not heard someone speak in a meeting, “My neighbor says he’s a Christian, but I’m thankful WE know the True Way.” This doesn’t feed anyone’s soul. This isn’t spiritual bread. This is hypocritical Phariseeism. “I thank Thee that I am not like other men are.” The belief that the church in the home, the itinerant ministers traveling in pairs - that this FORM is our hope, is not Biblical. It’s an idol that has been tacked onto the Gospel, suggesting that salvation is not in Christ, but in the form in which we gather. I do not believe this, and I will not teach it to my children. I believe that this misunderstanding is at the root of the abuses and misconduct within our fellowship. It has lifted up our ministry and our form as above reproach and created a power structure that is not to be questioned and has no accountability. This is not what Jesus laid out. It’s false, damaging, and a recipe for spiritual disaster. Scripture clearly condemns sectarianism. (emphasis mine) I think this is an absolutely good position to take. I have believed for years that God saves people in ways that we will never know and that outside of our fellowship there are many saved people. I have found that many of us feel that way but don't talk about it that much. I have expressed this to several workers who have visited us and at least one who is a major overseer. You might know that, Charlie Kerr, an early worker (early 1900's) presented this doctrine. Some years later when he left the ministry he recanted. You will find information about this in Cherie Kropp's book "Preserving the Truth: The Church without a name". Twenty years of research presents much information that many of us know nothing about. to many. Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. 1 Cor 12:3-7 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Romans 10:11-13 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 1 Cor 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I believe that anyone who is honest and who has studied scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit understands and believes that our fellowship is NOT the only right church. That our salvation is in Jesus Christ. To put our hope in anything else is simply the definition of idol worship. It’s legalism and an insult to His sacrifice. I am hopeful that this will soon be openly discussed among the friends and even spoken aloud by our ministry, as a correction of this terrible error. Because it has done a lot of damage. I even believe that most of the friends and workers are in agreement with me, but are afraid to speak it. I would like to see that change. We are followers of Christ. If we want to have a healthy church that brings souls to Him and that shepherds its flock well, we need to have Biblically sound doctrine. Please discuss and share this letter widely. With love, A friend I question some of this. Scripture didn't record how they did things for idle gossip. It's there for a reason. That is if we believe scripture is God/Christ/HS inspired and revealed. Totally agree that the 2x2'as are not the only denomination that the faithful will be brought out of, but they are the best method that I've ever seen in comparison to the 1st century church even with the current roaches running for cover now that the lights are on.
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Post by christiansburg on May 29, 2023 18:57:28 GMT -5
I question some of this. Scripture didn't record how they did things for idle gossip. It's there for a reason. That is if we believe scripture is God/Christ/HS inspired and revealed. Totally agree that the 2x2'as are not the only denomination that the faithful will be brought out of, but they are the best method that I've ever seen in comparison to the 1st century church even with the current roaches running for cover now that the lights are on.
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Post by christiansburg on May 29, 2023 19:12:06 GMT -5
Sorry I think I put my comments on the wrong line. My comments begin with the line "I think this is an absolutely good position to take... God saves people in ways that we know nothing about. I have had this conversation with many workers who have visited with us, one being a major overseer. Charlie Kerr, an early worker mentioned in Cherie Kropp's book, started this doctrine. I also reference Cherie Kropp's book that brings out a history that many of us know little to nothing about. Twenty years of research produced an invaluable history of this fellowship. "Preserving the Truth" The Church Without a Name." I have been professing for 67 years and found it very helpful and useful.
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