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Post by CherieKropp on May 14, 2023 22:18:30 GMT -5
May 14, 2023
Dorothy [Kleeb, MN sister worker] has requested we share the following letter.
I am forwarding it in it's entirety, including the note to the staff.
John [Simmons]
My dear dear friends.
I'm sorry that this will come as yet another blow. One wonders why it seems necessary to confess something from two decades ago, when there has obviously been liberty and blessing after repenting. But I am aware that there are rumors surrounding LeRoy [Sanford, Overseer of ND/SD] that will provide all the truth that is mine. I am not responsible for anything else on his part.
I will be stepping away from the work at this time, not because I wish to or was forced to, but it will be good for the growth and healing of the church. John S. pointed out James 5:13-18 as a possibility as to why this must be.
I have loved Minnesota so much; the people, the staff. When one is unworthy, the best they can do is serve, and it has been a great privilege. LeRoy is also stepping away, and made the move to his family today. I'm not sure where I will end up, but I think Harold and Anna's basement ultimately while I get my feet under me. I would love nothing more than to curl up at Jesus' feet.
I'm wondering if you would mind sending this letter on to your fields, maybe 7:30 or so??? It just needs to come straight up, just the facts. It is going to be a gut punch and I am so very sorry. I have no idea what the future will bring, but I somewhat picture staying in Minnesota.
With all my heart,
Doro
Saturday May 14, 2023
Before all the world:
I will state only facts, without details, in this first part.
My name is Dorothy Kleeb and I am on the Minnesota worker staff.
Twenty years ago or more, I was involved in a consensual relationship with a male co-worker on my staff.
That relationship was cut off and there was a clean break.
After some years, that staff member was asked to move to the position of overseer.
He called to confirm that there was continued certainty that there would be no future connection. I affirmed that.
I had been in Minnesota some years already.
I have given myself to the work and people here. I love them.
Those are the facts.
BUT
Now is the day of reckoning. Activities committed over the years by friends and workers against vulnerable individuals are being brought to light, nearly every day.
And in the midst of this, it seems imperative to confess this inappropriate though not illegal activity. This did not scar a vulnerable nonconsenting person, but I understand this immoral situation, long ago, will scar the big broad picture of trust in what is assumed to be pure. And so I ask myself, “Why did I not tell someone before?” Why did I content myself with my own personal repentance and feeling of forgiveness? I really don’t feel I would have been disbelieved, shamed, or put down by anyone I would have chosen to speak of it to, as has been the case with some. But I was afraid of destroying my own current joy.
Tonight I publicly laid out my situation in front of a group that are struggling deeply with current issues in the fellowship. I told them I had had a relationship with a brother worker years ago, and I don’t know what to do about it.
It came out spontaneously. Why did that happen? I think it was because I knew they loved me and I loved them. That is the safest environment for honesty. I didn’t stop to consider that it might be on the internet within an hour. It’s weird, the power of love. They genuinely hurt for the agony I am in, at the need to somehow confess again what I have repented of in the past, but not confessed publicly.
While I have been personally content and thrilled at the power repentance brings, and thrived in that personal liberty, there is a big burden of guilt that I did not share this with the fellowship as a whole.
I am sorry. I am so so sorry.
On behalf of all of us who have had secrets, young or old, and are afraid to share them, I offer this up: the power of knowing you will still be loved because you have loved is tremendous. It helps us to be honest. Having my story received with love makes all the difference in the world.
I had a different letter written on Friday, to send to workers and friends in Minnesota on Monday, and had shared with just a few of the staff. The above event happened last night. I am happy to share that if you wish.
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jane
Junior Member
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Post by jane on May 15, 2023 10:09:54 GMT -5
On my first read-I appreciate the honesty and vulnerability of this letter. It would have taken courage to write this and i respect that.
Curious to hear from LeRoy now.....?
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Post by jonathan on May 15, 2023 10:44:41 GMT -5
I also noticed and appreciate the honesty, integrity and respect for truthfulness in her message. We can all take our hats off for her.
Wonder if other workers who also had our are having relationships will follow suit?
If not, then why not?
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Post by openingact34 on May 15, 2023 13:20:35 GMT -5
I also noticed and appreciate the honesty, integrity and respect for truthfulness in her message. We can all take our hats off for her. Wonder if other workers who also had our are having relationships will follow suit? If not, then why not? Well, you have to wonder what the "sin" threshold is for stepping down. Jesus proclaimed that looking at someone with lust was the same as sleeping with them. The fact that this is getting lumped in with CSA cases is absurd. |
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Post by mdm on May 15, 2023 13:51:53 GMT -5
I also noticed and appreciate the honesty, integrity and respect for truthfulness in her message. We can all take our hats off for her. Wonder if other workers who also had our are having relationships will follow suit? If not, then why not? Only those with integrity will leave the ministry on their own. And those are probably the ones that should not be leaving. The ones that have had relationships for decades (I could name a few) will not leave on their own, because they have no integrity. |
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Post by mrdobalina on May 15, 2023 14:48:56 GMT -5
Huge respect to her for owning it, I like people that own their own behaviour.
On the other hand, the behaviour dosent seem that terrible. She had a need, he had a need & nobody was harmed, I think its fantastic & they should have kept doing it until their heads caved in.
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Post by snow on May 15, 2023 16:05:30 GMT -5
I understand why she did this. But what concerns me most is that those who are coming forward about consensual affairs are stepping down and they are probably the ones that should be remaining in their positions. They are honest and have a conscience. I imagine there are a fair few out there still that are in relationships right now that don't have the conscience of honesty to come clean. No one will kick them out because no one will know. They are the ones the f&w's will be left with instead of the workers like D. This would not be an issue if the group had continued allowing married workers. There is no reason why they can't be married. Some of the original apostles were married and the founders of this group were married in some cases. There is not reason why they can't be married and even have children. Many people that are missionaries have children and are married and it works. They home school the children if they are moving to often and when they go to a new area if they don't have room for the whole family they sometimes let some of the older children stay with other church members. Also, it would be easy for each community to have a house that the costs are shared by the friends that would house workers when they came to their area. Problem solved. Workers could marry, have children, still not own anything and go from place to place always having a residence to reside in while there.
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Post by mrdobalina on May 15, 2023 16:07:52 GMT -5
I understand why she did this. But what concerns me most is that those who are coming forward about consensual affairs are stepping down and they are probably the ones that should be remaining in their positions. They are honest and have a conscience. I imagine there are a fair few out there still that are in relationships right now that don't have the conscience of honesty to come clean. No one will kick them out because no one will know. They are the ones the f&w's will be left with instead of the workers like D. This would not be an issue if the group had continued allowing married workers. There is no reason why they can't be married. Some of the original apostles were married and the founders of this group were married in some cases. There is not reason why they can't be married and even have children. Many people that are missionaries have children and are married and it works. They home school the children if they are moving to often and when they go to a new area if they don't have room for the whole family they sometimes let some of the older children stay with other church members. Also, it would be easy for each community to have a house that the costs are shared by the friends that would house workers when they came to their area. Problem solved. Workers could marry, have children, still not own anything and go from place to place always having a residence to reside in while there. I think some are using it as an exit strategy, and good on them. |
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Post by snow on May 15, 2023 16:10:20 GMT -5
I understand why she did this. But what concerns me most is that those who are coming forward about consensual affairs are stepping down and they are probably the ones that should be remaining in their positions. They are honest and have a conscience. I imagine there are a fair few out there still that are in relationships right now that don't have the conscience of honesty to come clean. No one will kick them out because no one will know. They are the ones the f&w's will be left with instead of the workers like D. This would not be an issue if the group had continued allowing married workers. There is no reason why they can't be married. Some of the original apostles were married and the founders of this group were married in some cases. There is not reason why they can't be married and even have children. Many people that are missionaries have children and are married and it works. They home school the children if they are moving to often and when they go to a new area if they don't have room for the whole family they sometimes let some of the older children stay with other church members. Also, it would be easy for each community to have a house that the costs are shared by the friends that would house workers when they came to their area. Problem solved. Workers could marry, have children, still not own anything and go from place to place always having a residence to reside in while there. I think some are using it as an exit strategy, and good on them. Could be I suppose. I never thought of that and I should have. Makes sense. It's just sad to me that the good ones are the ones leaving. |
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Post by mrdobalina on May 15, 2023 16:27:25 GMT -5
I think some are using it as an exit strategy, and good on them. Could be I suppose. I never thought of that and I should have. Makes sense. It's just sad to me that the good ones are the ones leaving. It's the good ones that should be leaving. In the light of day they have realised that they were swimming in a cesspool and it dosent sit with them. |
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Post by snow on May 15, 2023 16:56:43 GMT -5
Could be I suppose. I never thought of that and I should have. Makes sense. It's just sad to me that the good ones are the ones leaving. It's the good ones that should be leaving. In the light of day they have realised that they were swimming in a cesspool and it dosent sit with them. From that pov yes you're right. I was just thinking of the f&W's that still like the church meetings in the home etc. but want to see changes in the hierarchy of workers. They are being left with the ones that should be going and losing the ones that would be far better for them in the long run. I do understand the good ones leaving. I would. |
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Post by mrdobalina on May 15, 2023 17:29:16 GMT -5
It's the good ones that should be leaving. In the light of day they have realised that they were swimming in a cesspool and it dosent sit with them. From that pov yes you're right. I was just thinking of the f&W's that still like the church meetings in the home etc. but want to see changes in the hierarchy of workers. They are being left with the ones that should be going and losing the ones that would be far better for them in the long run. I do understand the good ones leaving. I would. I've always felt that you can love God, be a good person or whatever floats your boat without having to belong to a like minded group. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 19:29:32 GMT -5
I also noticed and appreciate the honesty, integrity and respect for truthfulness in her message. We can all take our hats off for her. Wonder if other workers who also had our are having relationships will follow suit? If not, then why not? Well, you have to wonder what the "sin" threshold is for stepping down. Jesus proclaimed that looking at someone with lust was the same as sleeping with them. The fact that this is getting lumped in with CSA cases is absurd. Umm...no its's "to lust after her" not "with lust" means something a bit different than the worlds interpretation. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 19:32:44 GMT -5
I understand why she did this. But what concerns me most is that those who are coming forward about consensual affairs are stepping down and they are probably the ones that should be remaining in their positions. They are honest and have a conscience. I imagine there are a fair few out there still that are in relationships right now that don't have the conscience of honesty to come clean. No one will kick them out because no one will know. They are the ones the f&w's will be left with instead of the workers like D. This would not be an issue if the group had continued allowing married workers. There is no reason why they can't be married. Some of the original apostles were married and the founders of this group were married in some cases. There is not reason why they can't be married and even have children. Many people that are missionaries have children and are married and it works. They home school the children if they are moving to often and when they go to a new area if they don't have room for the whole family they sometimes let some of the older children stay with other church members. Also, it would be easy for each community to have a house that the costs are shared by the friends that would house workers when they came to their area. Problem solved. Workers could marry, have children, still not own anything and go from place to place always having a residence to reside in while there. The only thing worse than adultery or fornication would be murder, pedo's and politicians... I know a bit about fornication and it cost me a hefty price... |
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 662
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Post by peggysullivan on May 15, 2023 22:20:52 GMT -5
I understand why she did this. But what concerns me most is that those who are coming forward about consensual affairs are stepping down and they are probably the ones that should be remaining in their positions. They are honest and have a conscience. I imagine there are a fair few out there still that are in relationships right now that don't have the conscience of honesty to come clean. No one will kick them out because no one will know. They are the ones the f&w's will be left with instead of the workers like D. This would not be an issue if the group had continued allowing married workers. There is no reason why they can't be married. Some of the original apostles were married and the founders of this group were married in some cases. There is not reason why they can't be married and even have children. Many people that are missionaries have children and are married and it works. They home school the children if they are moving to often and when they go to a new area if they don't have room for the whole family they sometimes let some of the older children stay with other church members. Also, it would be easy for each community to have a house that the costs are shared by the friends that would house workers when they came to their area. Problem solved. Workers could marry, have children, still not own anything and go from place to place always having a residence to reside in while there. That would make too much sense! Lol |
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Post by Admin on May 15, 2023 22:51:09 GMT -5
My personal message for Dorothy Kleeb, MN sister worker.
Dear Dorothy,
I don't know you and I'm pretty sure you don't know me either. But my heart goes out to you, right now. For the situation you find yourself in, we can feel just a little of how horrible it is for you, in this unjust world.
Reading your honest confession (1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness") brought tears to my eyes - tears I think of Jesus as he looks on us in this world and situations of man that we find ourselves in.
Jesus' attitude and treatment of women in his society was just beautiful, acknowledging as he must have, in my mind at least, the extra burden on women in patriarchal society and religious systems in particular. Think of his wonderful words to the Samaritan woman at the well - words of joy to her heart. To the woman about to be punished by the Pharisees of her day for her adultery, "Neither do I (condemn you). Go and sin no more."
For yourself and all workers who retire honorably, you nevertheless find yourself materially destitute. No retirement plan, no home, no family of your own. I know there are those who will do their absolute best to look after you, materially. We are so grateful to them.
Personally, in my prayers I am deeply thankful for you, your service to our loving gracious God and father. And honestly, as has already been said, if I had the choice, I would want to be hearing the gospel story of salvation - the salvation found in no other but Jesus Christ, by the grace of God through faith - from your lips right now!
Blessings and thank you,
admin of TMB
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2023 23:03:51 GMT -5
Nicely said Admin
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Post by BobWilliston on May 16, 2023 0:02:08 GMT -5
Well, you have to wonder what the "sin" threshold is for stepping down. Jesus proclaimed that looking at someone with lust was the same as sleeping with them. The fact that this is getting lumped in with CSA cases is absurd. Umm...no its's "to lust after her" not "with lust" means something a bit different than the worlds interpretation. You're full of baloney. You can't lust after someone WITHOUT lust.  |
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Post by mod5 on May 16, 2023 3:59:25 GMT -5
LeRoy Sandford 7:37 am
Dear Dakota Friends,
It’s with a heavy heart that I write this letter of apology to you because I’ve broken your trust. I’m very sorry…
Around twenty years ago I was in an inappropriate relationship with a sister worker. This past Saturday evening she shared the experience with a group of our friends where she labors in Minnesota.
Yesterday I came to my brother’s and informed our Dakota Staff about my failure, communicating with most personally before sending them an email.
My hope was to communicate with ones among you that would feel this most keenly, before sending a letter of apology to all of you.
Dorothy Kleeb (the sister) communicated with the Minnesota staff last evening, also. Her apology has already been posted on the internet, which makes it imperative that this be sent immediately. We were in communication in the days leading up to this.
This is the final part of the letter to staff:
“I am the brother. I’m very sorry. Much of the above is the echo of my heart. Life in this ministry has been rich. It’s difficult to imagine life not in this ministry because of the love our Lord puts in our hearts for our fellow laborers, for His people and for seeking souls.
Workers are my very best friends.
This feels like an awful dream, but I know that the Lord sees everything, and there are possibilities of usefulness where ever we find ourselves.
I intend to spend time with my family until the future becomes clear. I came to Phil and Karen’s today.
Lyle Schober has ticketing to arrive in Minnesota on Tuesday. He’s to arrive at Hunter Thursday by suppertime, and is to guide the Workers’ Meeting on Friday.
The temporary plan is that you communicate with Perry and Paul concerning arrangements in the Dakotas.
Regretfully, but with love in Christ,
LeRoy”
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Post by Umfolozi on May 16, 2023 10:01:47 GMT -5
I also noticed and appreciate the honesty, integrity and respect for truthfulness in her message. We can all take our hats off for her. Wonder if other workers who also had our are having relationships will follow suit? If not, then why not? They have only come out now that the bomb went of though.. |
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Post by snow on May 16, 2023 12:08:19 GMT -5
From that pov yes you're right. I was just thinking of the f&W's that still like the church meetings in the home etc. but want to see changes in the hierarchy of workers. They are being left with the ones that should be going and losing the ones that would be far better for them in the long run. I do understand the good ones leaving. I would. I've always felt that you can love God, be a good person or whatever floats your boat without having to belong to a like minded group. Oh I totally agree with that. But not everyone wants that. Some require a community it seems. We are all different. |
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Post by snow on May 16, 2023 12:10:31 GMT -5
I understand why she did this. But what concerns me most is that those who are coming forward about consensual affairs are stepping down and they are probably the ones that should be remaining in their positions. They are honest and have a conscience. I imagine there are a fair few out there still that are in relationships right now that don't have the conscience of honesty to come clean. No one will kick them out because no one will know. They are the ones the f&w's will be left with instead of the workers like D. This would not be an issue if the group had continued allowing married workers. There is no reason why they can't be married. Some of the original apostles were married and the founders of this group were married in some cases. There is not reason why they can't be married and even have children. Many people that are missionaries have children and are married and it works. They home school the children if they are moving to often and when they go to a new area if they don't have room for the whole family they sometimes let some of the older children stay with other church members. Also, it would be easy for each community to have a house that the costs are shared by the friends that would house workers when they came to their area. Problem solved. Workers could marry, have children, still not own anything and go from place to place always having a residence to reside in while there. The only thing worse than adultery or fornication would be murder, pedo's and politicians... I know a bit about fornication and it cost me a hefty price... So you feel that she and Leroy Sandford should both step down? |
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Post by snow on May 16, 2023 12:14:53 GMT -5
LeRoy Sandford 7:37 am Dear Dakota Friends, It’s with a heavy heart that I write this letter of apology to you because I’ve broken your trust. I’m very sorry… Around twenty years ago I was in an inappropriate relationship with a sister worker. This past Saturday evening she shared the experience with a group of our friends where she labors in Minnesota. Yesterday I came to my brother’s and informed our Dakota Staff about my failure, communicating with most personally before sending them an email. My hope was to communicate with ones among you that would feel this most keenly, before sending a letter of apology to all of you. Dorothy Kleeb (the sister) communicated with the Minnesota staff last evening, also. Her apology has already been posted on the internet, which makes it imperative that this be sent immediately. We were in communication in the days leading up to this. This is the final part of the letter to staff: “I am the brother. I’m very sorry. Much of the above is the echo of my heart. Life in this ministry has been rich. It’s difficult to imagine life not in this ministry because of the love our Lord puts in our hearts for our fellow laborers, for His people and for seeking souls. Workers are my very best friends. This feels like an awful dream, but I know that the Lord sees everything, and there are possibilities of usefulness where ever we find ourselves. I intend to spend time with my family until the future becomes clear. I came to Phil and Karen’s today. Lyle Schober has ticketing to arrive in Minnesota on Tuesday. He’s to arrive at Hunter Thursday by suppertime, and is to guide the Workers’ Meeting on Friday. The temporary plan is that you communicate with Perry and Paul concerning arrangements in the Dakotas. Regretfully, but with love in Christ, LeRoy” It really sounds as though he wouldn't have come forward if she hadn't and it hadn't been on the internet making it impossible for him to ignore. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 14:06:05 GMT -5
The only thing worse than adultery or fornication would be murder, pedo's and politicians... I know a bit about fornication and it cost me a hefty price... So you feel that she and Leroy Sandford should both step down? Yes, I am leaning that way.... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 17:55:37 GMT -5
Yes, I am leaning that way.... By stopping the relationship shows they have repented or does God require more? It seems a bit late to punish them for something God has likely forgiven. Since they did something on the side "quietly" how would you know it's actually stopped? Sometimes there are consequences for ones actions. Delayed or not. |
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Post by mrdobalina on May 17, 2023 4:28:16 GMT -5
I've always felt that you can love God, be a good person or whatever floats your boat without having to belong to a like minded group. Oh I totally agree with that. But not everyone wants that. Some require a community it seems. We are all different. To dig a little deeper, do they need the community, or do they need external validation from a community? |
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Post by deepdeep on May 17, 2023 8:35:23 GMT -5
Oh I totally agree with that. But not everyone wants that. Some require a community it seems. We are all different. To dig a little deeper, do they need the community, or do they need external validation from a community? Both?... Why not both? It's sort of a chicken and egg thing maybe. It is probably impossible to truly not need a "community" and be something we would recognize as a human. The social, political, economical, spiritual, and other networks to numerous to name, all form a sort of structure. The individual within that structure, while endlessly fascinating, is probably entirely interchangeable, and more defined by their relationships to other networked individuals than any inherent characteristics. Even an "iconoclast" or "lone wolf" are actually participating in the network under those labels. Sadly...a small percentage of homo sapiens truly have no "network connection" to borrow a phrase from the tech world. These are incredibly dangerous creatures (I'm intentionally not calling them people). Certain serial killers have this affliction. If the community feedback has no way to alter the behavior of the individual.... That is some sort of anti social psychopathy. Of course.... The inverse of this is a network where the individual feedback to the network is ignored.... That would be some form of tyranny. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 11:37:47 GMT -5
By stopping the relationship shows they have repented or does God require more? It seems a bit late to punish them for something God has likely forgiven. Since they did something on the side "quietly" how would you know it's actually stopped? Sometimes there are consequences for ones actions. Delayed or not.I know a bit about fornication and it cost me a hefty price... Says the man with the knife ,How can you be trusted ? |
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