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Post by deepdeep on May 6, 2023 12:10:34 GMT -5
I am probably more ignorant of the 2x2 group than I thought. The answer you gave to the following question: ".....but I still don't get why parent's won't go to the police when a child tells them about this?" Was the description of the 2x2 mindset as follows: "The answer is simple. The workers act for God on Earth. They are more important than Governments, police or whoever. Take things to the workers first." If you are right, and the simple answer you describe is the reason 2x2 CSA goes unreported, what would happen if that attitude you describe had not been prevalent? Is this a group of people who would otherwise be far better at reporting CSA than the general public? Or perhaps the reporting rate of CSA within the 2x2 membership is markedly worse than non 2x2 CSA... Though to be meaningfully worse than 9 out of 10 incidents going unreported seems unlikely. I'm just leery of "broad brush" statements about causality in about any situation. The reasons things are the way they are is something we all try to understand because that is the first step in changing it. We tend to rely on our own anecdotal experience in explaining what we see going on around us because there is really no better alternative. The problem in this way of thinking is that does not get us very close to real causality. Anyways... Thank you for putting up with my nattering questioning. There are many reasons why people don't report CSA and other abuses (generally speaking). However, as explained in another post, environmental factors do have a significant influence in this. In the past where a child was battered by an abusive father or a wife suffered same, family members often went into denial mode in order to preserve the family which was most often dependent upon the providing by the abuser. That's just one example. You are trying to find a one fix understanding which does not apply. Cultural and spiritual influences often apply. In the 2x2 sect the laity are dependent upon the workers for their salvation. That is like an abusive father relationship. They are also dependent upon the 'insular' way, from which they must not depart. Denial of what may be going on, even in serious matters, is a measure to preserve our position in the group/family. It's good to realise that people are strange and often selfish beings. If you are on the wrong end of things in such situations, don't look for support or justice, you are more likely to increase your suffering. That's the way it was. Hopefully we have had enough of that. Hmm..I think we have arrived at a place where we may be in agreement but it is not consistent with your earlier claim that the reason for unreported CSA within the 2x2 system is undue reverence for the clergy (workers). There may very well be that condition...that is something I'm not qualified to comment on. Am I to understand that you agree that there NOT is a "one fix understanding" to the problem of unreported CSA?
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Post by mountain on May 6, 2023 14:00:03 GMT -5
There are many reasons why people don't report CSA and other abuses (generally speaking). However, as explained in another post, environmental factors do have a significant influence in this. In the past where a child was battered by an abusive father or a wife suffered same, family members often went into denial mode in order to preserve the family which was most often dependent upon the providing by the abuser. That's just one example. You are trying to find a one fix understanding which does not apply. Cultural and spiritual influences often apply. In the 2x2 sect the laity are dependent upon the workers for their salvation. That is like an abusive father relationship. They are also dependent upon the 'insular' way, from which they must not depart. Denial of what may be going on, even in serious matters, is a measure to preserve our position in the group/family. It's good to realise that people are strange and often selfish beings. If you are on the wrong end of things in such situations, don't look for support or justice, you are more likely to increase your suffering. That's the way it was. Hopefully we have had enough of that. Hmm..I think we have arrived at a place where we may be in agreement but it is not consistent with your earlier claim that the reason for unreported CSA within the 2x2 system is undue reverence for the clergy (workers). There may very well be that condition...that is something I'm not qualified to comment on. Are you seriously suggesting that my earlier statement paraphrased by yourself, ie 'the reason for unreported CSA within the 2x2 system is undue reverence for the clergy (workers)' is inconsistent with the emboldened portion of my more recent statement above?
Am I to understand that you agree that there NOT is a "one fix understanding" to the problem of unreported CSA? If a one fix understanding exists, it is this. Every mature person has a moral and civic responsibility to report any matter of CSA to the proper authorities, or at the very least to ensure that some other responsible person is doing so. Mandatory reporting has been introduced to the legal system to make certain classes of persons legally responsible to do so. This has come about in certain countries because of the failure of people to act out their moral and civic responsibilities. As far as members of the clergy go, a spiritual duty also applies, hence they have been legally mandated. In my country the moral and civic responsibilities are publicly stated and rather than mandated reporting as a legal measure, this is addressed through being a professional discipline.
A primary reason in my opinion, for cases of CSA not being reported in the 2x2 system is due to the environment and culture of the sect where undue and unwise deference is given to the leaders who are regarded as being on a level above Governments, lawful authorities, etc. There are other reasons, more specific to certain individual cases, but worker approval for any actions taken is a governing control which is a powerful guide.
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Post by deepdeep on May 6, 2023 16:38:12 GMT -5
Hmm..I think we have arrived at a place where we may be in agreement but it is not consistent with your earlier claim that the reason for unreported CSA within the 2x2 system is undue reverence for the clergy (workers). There may very well be that condition...that is something I'm not qualified to comment on. Are you seriously suggesting that my earlier statement paraphrased by yourself, ie 'the reason for unreported CSA within the 2x2 system is undue reverence for the clergy (workers)' is inconsistent with the emboldened portion of my more recent statement above?
Am I to understand that you agree that there NOT is a "one fix understanding" to the problem of unreported CSA? If a one fix understanding exists, it is this. Every mature person has a moral and civic responsibility to report any matter of CSA to the proper authorities, or at the very least to ensure that some other responsible person is doing so. Mandatory reporting has been introduced to the legal system to make certain classes of persons legally responsible to do so. This has come about in certain countries because of the failure of people to act out their moral and civic responsibilities. As far as members of the clergy go, a spiritual duty also applies, hence they have been legally mandated. In my country the moral and civic responsibilities are publicly stated and rather than mandated reporting as a legal measure, this is addressed through being a professional discipline.
A primary reason in my opinion, for cases of CSA not being reported in the 2x2 system is due to the environment and culture of the sect where undue and unwise deference is given to the leaders who are regarded as being on a level above Governments, lawful authorities, etc. There are other reasons, more specific to certain individual cases, but worker approval for any actions taken is a governing control which is a powerful guide.
No... The inconsistency is in your answer to the question of why CSA goes unreported...(quoted below) and then following later statements that I broadly agree with that the reasons for it are varied "The answer is simple. The workers act for God on Earth. They are more important than Governments, police or whoever. Take things to the workers first."
I think there is broad agreement on a lot of this... I'll try and cut to the quick as best I can. I don't believe the reason that CSA goes generally unreported within the 2x2 system is due to the "simple reason" that you originally put forth because it goes unreported at a crazy high rate in the society at large that the 2x2 system is nested within. For it to be true that your original statement is the case... That would mean either this is a group that reporting is even worse than the general population (and it may be...I really don't know but it's tough to do worse than 9 of ten instances going unreported), or... If the people didn't have the undue respect for the clergy that they have, they would report at a higher rate than general society. It seems that the simplest explanation is that your statements about the tendency to protect systems that people value is the reason it goes interrupted unreported.... Not the system itself. It's a pretty narrow disagreement I think... You are welcome to disagree and you won't offend me. *edited for clarity...I'm not a good phone typist*
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Post by butterfingers on May 6, 2023 16:49:41 GMT -5
Do you want to admit to the world that you were raped? If you are a child, do you even understand what is happening besides pain? Do your parents want to admit to the world that you were raped?
That is why it goes unreported.
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Post by Umfolozi on May 6, 2023 17:56:24 GMT -5
I have to honestly say I don't appreciate when a post is pulled to threads with needless debates.
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Post by snow on May 7, 2023 11:52:54 GMT -5
Do you want to admit to the world that you were raped? If you are a child, do you even understand what is happening besides pain? Do your parents want to admit to the world that you were raped? That is why it goes unreported. Yes. I should have reported my rape but I didn't because I was ashamed, traumatized and I knew what it would be like in court if I did. I was 17 in the early 70's. A time when a woman couldn't even have a credit card without her husband or father's permission. Watching the E Jean Caroll rape trial is triggering me badly. Nothing much has changed from 50 years ago. The defense lawyers still make you out to be a liar, you didn't report it, etc. When it happens to an older individual our mind tries to downplay what happened in order to not go into a trauma breakdown. It took me weeks to be able to process it. You focus on the most inconsequential part of it. When she told the lawyer that when her friend said 'He raped you' she was not able to process that right away. Totally understand that. So how much harder would it be for a child to process something they don't even understand except for the pain as you point out.
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Post by butterfingers on May 7, 2023 12:11:38 GMT -5
Do you want to admit to the world that you were raped? If you are a child, do you even understand what is happening besides pain? Do your parents want to admit to the world that you were raped? That is why it goes unreported. Yes. I should have reported my rape but I didn't because I was ashamed, traumatized and I knew what it would be like in court if I did. I was 17 in the early 70's. A time when a woman couldn't even have a credit card without her husband or father's permission. Watching the E Jean Caroll rape trial is triggering me badly. Nothing much has changed from 50 years ago. The defense lawyers still make you out to be a liar, you didn't report it, etc. When it happens to an older individual our mind tries to downplay what happened in order to not go into a trauma breakdown. It took me weeks to be able to process it. You focus on the most inconsequential part of it. When she told the lawyer that when her friend said 'He raped you' she was not able to process that right away. Totally understand that. So how much harder would it be for a child to process something they don't even understand except for the pain as you point out. This brings tears to my eyes. How can people do this to others?!? Change has to happen!!!!
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Post by snow on May 7, 2023 12:50:38 GMT -5
Yes. I should have reported my rape but I didn't because I was ashamed, traumatized and I knew what it would be like in court if I did. I was 17 in the early 70's. A time when a woman couldn't even have a credit card without her husband or father's permission. Watching the E Jean Caroll rape trial is triggering me badly. Nothing much has changed from 50 years ago. The defense lawyers still make you out to be a liar, you didn't report it, etc. When it happens to an older individual our mind tries to downplay what happened in order to not go into a trauma breakdown. It took me weeks to be able to process it. You focus on the most inconsequential part of it. When she told the lawyer that when her friend said 'He raped you' she was not able to process that right away. Totally understand that. So how much harder would it be for a child to process something they don't even understand except for the pain as you point out. This brings tears to my eyes. How can people do this to others?!? Change has to happen!!!! I agree. I so hope that this latest discovery will bring the change that is needed. That they recognize the damage done to children and stop supporting the abuser over the survivor of CSA.
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Post by christiansburg on May 7, 2023 13:05:19 GMT -5
Do you want to admit to the world that you were raped? If you are a child, do you even understand what is happening besides pain? Do your parents want to admit to the world that you were raped? That is why it goes unreported. Yes. I should have reported my rape but I didn't because I was ashamed, traumatized and I knew what it would be like in court if I did. I was 17 in the early 70's. A time when a woman couldn't even have a credit card without her husband or father's permission. Watching the E Jean Caroll rape trial is triggering me badly. Nothing much has changed from 50 years ago. The defense lawyers still make you out to be a liar, you didn't report it, etc. When it happens to an older individual our mind tries to downplay what happened in order to not go into a trauma breakdown. It took me weeks to be able to process it. You focus on the most inconsequential part of it. When she told the lawyer that when her friend said 'He raped you' she was not able to process that right away. Totally understand that. So how much harder would it be for a child to process something they don't even understand except for the pain as you point out. The trouble with this E Jean Caroll rape case is very vague. It is a "he said she said". I doubt this goes very far. Your should know by know that the liberal left will stop at no false story to stop Trump.
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Post by snow on May 7, 2023 13:44:41 GMT -5
Yes. I should have reported my rape but I didn't because I was ashamed, traumatized and I knew what it would be like in court if I did. I was 17 in the early 70's. A time when a woman couldn't even have a credit card without her husband or father's permission. Watching the E Jean Caroll rape trial is triggering me badly. Nothing much has changed from 50 years ago. The defense lawyers still make you out to be a liar, you didn't report it, etc. When it happens to an older individual our mind tries to downplay what happened in order to not go into a trauma breakdown. It took me weeks to be able to process it. You focus on the most inconsequential part of it. When she told the lawyer that when her friend said 'He raped you' she was not able to process that right away. Totally understand that. So how much harder would it be for a child to process something they don't even understand except for the pain as you point out. The trouble with this E Jean Caroll rape case is very vague. It is a "he said she said". I doubt this goes very far. Your should know by know that the liberal left will stop at no false story to stop Trump. Most rape cases are he said she said. Surely you're not that naive. And the post wasn't about Trump or Caroll per se, it's just something that has triggered me because we were talking about CSA and what it must be like for a child to deal with it and I know first hand how it's hard enough at 17 never mind a child. So many times the survivor is not believed and literally shamed like Caroll is at the moment. This wasn't a political post it was about how survivors of CSA and rape are treated.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 8, 2023 21:21:51 GMT -5
Hard to say. I'm pretty sure that some were like me, totally ignorant of the LAW passed in about 1974? Making it illegal not to report such when found out to the LAW. I found out after 2014 that was the LAW. Thanks for trying to explain Wally but I still don't get why parent's won't go to the police when a child tells them about this? It easy. They believe that they have to do what the workers say, NO MATTER WHAT. You would be the same if you believed telling the police on a worker would send you to hell.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 8, 2023 21:31:19 GMT -5
Do you want to admit to the world that you were raped? If you are a child, do you even understand what is happening besides pain? Do your parents want to admit to the world that you were raped? That is why it goes unreported. We've long been taught to "turn the other cheek". Why? To get slapped again?
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Post by Umfolozi on May 11, 2023 16:12:51 GMT -5
The trouble with this E Jean Caroll rape case is very vague. It is a "he said she said". I doubt this goes very far. Your should know by know that the liberal left will stop at no false story to stop Trump. Most rape cases are he said she said. Surely you're not that naive. And the post wasn't about Trump or Caroll per se, it's just something that has triggered me because we were talking about CSA and what it must be like for a child to deal with it and I know first hand how it's hard enough at 17 never mind a child. So many times the survivor is not believed and literally shamed like Caroll is at the moment. This wasn't a political post it was about how survivors of CSA and rape are treated. I see what you say snow, I am just saying if my child had to come to me I would not be able to rest untill justice is served, it would be hard for me not to take things in my own hands.
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Post by snow on May 11, 2023 16:44:40 GMT -5
Most rape cases are he said she said. Surely you're not that naive. And the post wasn't about Trump or Caroll per se, it's just something that has triggered me because we were talking about CSA and what it must be like for a child to deal with it and I know first hand how it's hard enough at 17 never mind a child. So many times the survivor is not believed and literally shamed like Caroll is at the moment. This wasn't a political post it was about how survivors of CSA and rape are treated. I see what you say snow, I am just saying if my child had to come to me I would not be able to rest untill justice is served, it would be hard for me not to take things in my own hands. I would like to think that's how most parents would react. Well ideally all, but I will settle for most.
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 21:03:52 GMT -5
You are misunderstanding me. I am very much aware of what goes on in general society. What I was discussing is what goes on in the 2x2 sect. Turning one's attention to general society can be a distraction from the ongoing abuse matters coming to light within the 2x2 sect and the peculiar factors which result in many of the unreported cases within the sect. I am probably more ignorant of the 2x2 group than I thought. The answer you gave to the following question: ".....but I still don't get why parent's won't go to the police when a child tells them about this?" Was the description of the 2x2 mindset as follows: "The answer is simple. The workers act for God on Earth. They are more important than Governments, police or whoever. Take things to the workers first." If you are right, and the simple answer you describe is the reason 2x2 CSA goes unreported, what would happen if that attitude you describe had not been prevalent? Is this a group of people who would otherwise be far better at reporting CSA than the general public? Or perhaps the reporting rate of CSA within the 2x2 membership is markedly worse than non 2x2 CSA... Though to be meaningfully worse than 9 out of 10 incidents going unreported seems unlikely. I'm just leery of "broad brush" statements about causality in about any situation. The reasons things are the way they are is something we all try to understand because that is the first step in changing it. We tend to rely on our own anecdotal experience in explaining what we see going on around us because there is really no better alternative. The problem in this way of thinking is that does not get us very close to real causality. Anyways... Thank you for putting up with my nattering questioning. You should be a worker, sounds like you are a fan. You talk about being naive and then find most things in favor of people who have hurt so many and offer the counter point almost every time. You really should just offer to join the work. I’m pretty sure that’s the only way you won’t be naive any longer.
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 21:05:33 GMT -5
If a one fix understanding exists, it is this. Every mature person has a moral and civic responsibility to report any matter of CSA to the proper authorities, or at the very least to ensure that some other responsible person is doing so. Mandatory reporting has been introduced to the legal system to make certain classes of persons legally responsible to do so. This has come about in certain countries because of the failure of people to act out their moral and civic responsibilities. As far as members of the clergy go, a spiritual duty also applies, hence they have been legally mandated. In my country the moral and civic responsibilities are publicly stated and rather than mandated reporting as a legal measure, this is addressed through being a professional discipline.
A primary reason in my opinion, for cases of CSA not being reported in the 2x2 system is due to the environment and culture of the sect where undue and unwise deference is given to the leaders who are regarded as being on a level above Governments, lawful authorities, etc. There are other reasons, more specific to certain individual cases, but worker approval for any actions taken is a governing control which is a powerful guide.
No... The inconsistency is in your answer to the question of why CSA goes unreported...(quoted below) and then following later statements that I broadly agree with that the reasons for it are varied "The answer is simple. The workers act for God on Earth. They are more important than Governments, police or whoever. Take things to the workers first."
I think there is broad agreement on a lot of this... I'll try and cut to the quick as best I can. I don't believe the reason that CSA goes generally unreported within the 2x2 system is due to the "simple reason" that you originally put forth because it goes unreported at a crazy high rate in the society at large that the 2x2 system is nested within. For it to be true that your original statement is the case... That would mean either this is a group that reporting is even worse than the general population (and it may be...I really don't know but it's tough to do worse than 9 of ten instances going unreported), or... If the people didn't have the undue respect for the clergy that they have, they would report at a higher rate than general society. It seems that the simplest explanation is that your statements about the tendency to protect systems that people value is the reason it goes interrupted unreported.... Not the system itself. It's a pretty narrow disagreement I think... You are welcome to disagree and you won't offend me. *edited for clarity...I'm not a good phone typist* Since you view coverup was done in love you should maybe join this loving system.
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Post by margaret on May 12, 2023 23:44:28 GMT -5
Do you want to admit to the world that you were raped? If you are a child, do you even understand what is happening besides pain? Do your parents want to admit to the world that you were raped? That is why it goes unreported. We've long been taught to "turn the other cheek". Why? To get slapped again? maybe turning the other cheek isn’t the same as offering the other cheek
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Post by Umfolozi on Jun 9, 2023 18:54:33 GMT -5
Yes. I should have reported my rape but I didn't because I was ashamed, traumatized and I knew what it would be like in court if I did. I was 17 in the early 70's. A time when a woman couldn't even have a credit card without her husband or father's permission. Watching the E Jean Caroll rape trial is triggering me badly. Nothing much has changed from 50 years ago. The defense lawyers still make you out to be a liar, you didn't report it, etc. When it happens to an older individual our mind tries to downplay what happened in order to not go into a trauma breakdown. It took me weeks to be able to process it. You focus on the most inconsequential part of it. When she told the lawyer that when her friend said 'He raped you' she was not able to process that right away. Totally understand that. So how much harder would it be for a child to process something they don't even understand except for the pain as you point out. This brings tears to my eyes. How can people do this to others?!? Change has to happen!!!! We just don't know why? We know we are all sinfull human beings but there is a huge difference between sinning versus being evil or criminally minded, in my eye's at least.How can a human deliberately hurt another human or animal, besides clearly insane people?
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Post by Umfolozi on Jun 9, 2023 19:09:02 GMT -5
They are happening ! It is ……… 1973 in the late summer in Calgary Alberta , Canada I am 12 years old . It’s another night of going to swim then visit one person’s home . That family has 4 boys. I am 12 maybe ? Sounds right . We have had a snack them off to the rumpus room . By that time the 2 oldest were out after telling me how I talked . I had a lisp and stuttering . So they loved throwing that in my face till cried and and sought my (hero) my dad . We are downstairs ,I feel a change in they behavior . Little did I know that my world that night was going to alter my life forever . They say the have new game . We range from -12-17 . I am the youngest . So they say come enter on into bedroom . They then acted however they wanted . Cowboy curtains . A musky smell and 2 single beds . Plied blanket , tough . They tell me to lay down and close my eyes 👀 , I can’t breathe . KB and TA pin me down . My brother at my arms and TA to hold my legs . Which leaves me no where safe . There is one more person left . He was free to do what he wanted . I was screaming but that was not unusual . So you know you have to figure this stuff out . Whenever they came to our house , I would crawl under my bed as usually had to be done . I would go to sleep 💤 When they gone , my hero (My father) was my safety zone gathered me into his arms . But my parents were putting a puzzle together . Something was very wrong . My distress became too much for them . So I was sedated . Doctors would be calling , well we think something bad has happened . Out of control by this point . I had so much anxiety 😥 Living in fear . By this point . I never thought I would speak of this ! But something inside me , needed to speak . In addition by this time I had CSA from a worker & great uncle for years . It was nothing NEW ! From there I enjoy 1 month of peace . Then the world crashes into me again . NO SYMPATHY ❤️🩹 COMING OUT HERE ! 1CW Please tell me that you have been healed? I want you to be healed!!!! I don't want to believe that there is no hope, I want to believe people will come out at the other end victorious! Was at the animal shelter again today, my heart goes out to those animals aswell. Just looking in some of their eye's breaks my heart, you can tell their trust have been broken.
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Post by Umfolozi on Jun 9, 2023 19:16:58 GMT -5
I would love to hear the other side of the story, the one about healing and victory after these horrific things happened, please, please share!I need to know that this is NOT were your story ends.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 9, 2023 19:24:21 GMT -5
Ah , I love my foster failures . I was just going foster however after 5 minutes I knew I would never take them back . So nice to see the work you do , freely with love . We have 20 puppies in that have parvovirus at shelter AARCS . We have been working hard .
Peace in my life ! It will come , when I am finally able to make them understand their actions . I have traveled this road alone , but I didn’t know others . It is a healing experience . I don’t care what people think of me . The time has arrived for this smack down . I will take anyone on whom has committed this crime . Legally . I am prepared for consequences ! I will lose and mourn at the same time . I will tell you each nightmare , till I was excommunicated at 13 years old
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Post by getreal on Jun 9, 2023 21:52:28 GMT -5
Yes. I should have reported my rape but I didn't because I was ashamed, traumatized and I knew what it would be like in court if I did. I was 17 in the early 70's. A time when a woman couldn't even have a credit card without her husband or father's permission. Watching the E Jean Caroll rape trial is triggering me badly. Nothing much has changed from 50 years ago. The defense lawyers still make you out to be a liar, you didn't report it, etc. When it happens to an older individual our mind tries to downplay what happened in order to not go into a trauma breakdown. It took me weeks to be able to process it. You focus on the most inconsequential part of it. When she told the lawyer that when her friend said 'He raped you' she was not able to process that right away. Totally understand that. So how much harder would it be for a child to process something they don't even understand except for the pain as you point out. The trouble with this E Jean Caroll rape case is very vague. It is a "he said she said". I doubt this goes very far. Your should know by know that the liberal left will stop at no false story to stop Trump. Well a jury of twelve agreed with E Jean and trump lost and has to pay for his crimes and will pay more. He is a criminal. You cannot side with the liberal left about an abuser? You side with an abuser?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2023 22:54:57 GMT -5
The trouble with this E Jean Caroll rape case is very vague. It is a "he said she said". I doubt this goes very far. Your should know by know that the liberal left will stop at no false story to stop Trump. Well a jury of twelve agreed with E Jean and trump lost and has to pay for his crimes and will pay more. He is a criminal. You cannot side with the liberal left about an abuser? You side with an abuser? Losing a civil case doesn't make one a criminal. Criminal cases can.
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Post by snow on Jun 10, 2023 17:55:30 GMT -5
Well a jury of twelve agreed with E Jean and trump lost and has to pay for his crimes and will pay more. He is a criminal. You cannot side with the liberal left about an abuser? You side with an abuser? Losing a civil case doesn't make one a criminal. Criminal cases can. No it doesn't make him a criminal. It does show the world who he is though.
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